Lori Alexander: Valentine's Day Causes Divorce

[2xx1xy1JD]

Where did Lori's post for Tuesday go? It's mysteriously disappeared.

Re spanking research:

It's really hard to draw firm conclusions from spanking research, for a few main reasons:

1. There is no universal definition of spanking. Some people would define it as occasional use of an open-hand slap to a child's rear that causes no marks or injury and is done for the purpose of correction. Others will include the use of objects like wooden spoons, straps, paddles or canes, hard enough to leave marks, used on a fairly regular basis and used into the teen years. Those are very different things.

2. It's extremely difficult to measure ANYTHING that is only done a few times, in terms of impact on a child's life. When we look at objective factors that make a difference to kids, it's rarely about one magic parenting practice. Usually, it's about who the parent is, and what environment the child is in. That's because children are constantly influenced by everything around them. In the context of a child's entire life, they weren't raised by an "occasional spanker" - they may have been raised by a parent who had an attachment with them, who was able to cuddle and feed them as a baby and respond to cues, and raise them in a stable environment, and change them and bathe them and do a zillion other things, and they may have had peers who were a good influence or bad influence, and all of those things have more of an impact because they took place over many years. For a parent who is truly an occasional "just if they are running into traffic" spanker, spanking is something that would be less than an hour total in the child's life.

[Ken]

Here it is Ken. She later clarified that while spanking her child she had ended up hitting her hand or wrist so hard that she was worried she broke it.

Thanks for finding it. Our position is that the sting has to hurt to be effective. Far too often parents spank with no effect because it doesn't hurt. I doubt everyone on FJ is a treehuggers or against shooting a deer, etc. but I think your sensibilities need to toughen up a bit. This is not a prissy world out there and especially our boys are put into sports where the pain can be ten times any spanking. I talked to my neighbor today and asked him if he was ever spanked and he said he remembers two of them. Once her got the cane on the bare hand four times four teachers in one day, and another time he mouthed off to his mother and his Dad spanked him so long and hard that his Dad's hand hurt him for hours. I asked do you have any bad feelings about the spankings and he just laughed and said, "no I deserved them."

Listen I get the issue that we need to protect against abuse, but you know full well this was not an abusive mother. The wrist being hit with the wooden spoon was written AFTER Lori commented and the woman later explained that her strong willed child threw her hand behind her butt during the spanking and her hand inadvertently got whacked. The Mom felt terrible about the accident but this was far from abuse in any way... yet the cries for CPS from your group!

We can try to moderate our message to insure that kids are not being harmed, but although I think most spanking can be accomplished with a flick of the parent's wrist on a bare bottom, if I had a teenage boy who did something really bad, I would make sure he felt his spanking and never did it again if I thought that was necessary. He is my kid and I love him so I will do what I feel is best for him even if that left a bruise on his bottom... like that would kill him. Do you now how many mangled ankles my boys suffered and broken bones in sports.... let's get rid of all sports now too...

We will try to be more thoughtful of your concerns as we answer comments, but we are not giving up the time tested and proven spanking of children to gain discipline and obedience. No matter how loud the shout by liberal psychologists the studies do not bear out the premise that lower IQ or any other long lasting affects come from spanking. Do the research. I have and I see fraud in some of the anti-spanking studies and it bothers me that liberals will do whatever they can to prove their point... shouting, leaving no room for others opinions, and biasing studies.

[lawfulevil]

This is not a prissy world out there and especially our boys are put into sports where the pain can be ten times any spanking.

There's a HUGE difference between experiencing pain in sport (or a car accident, or childbirth, or any of the thousands of bits of daily life that can be physically or emotionally painful) and having it INFLICTED ON YOU BY YOUR PARENTS. Your parents are supposed to LOVE and PROTECT you. The opposing team is SUPPOSED to sack you.

There's also the point that you can choose to stop playing football if the pain isn't worth it. You can't choose to stop being an abused child.

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that you see no difference between getting a concussion playing football and getting a concussion because your parent slammed your head into the wall over and over again?

[2xx1xy1JD]

We fully understand the rules of communications and behaviors for a healthy marriage, and your list is excellent. Lori's ministry is not to make marriages better with good advice and today's post is an purposeful exception. Instead her message is revolutionizing Christian marriages because she starts with the wife's heart which can change a husband's when she loves and accepts him just the way he is. Her behavior propels him to become a better man, better husband and better father.

I wish I could post email after email and comment after comment about how Lori's message has changed these women's lives. And not a one as of yet has written to say I tried what you said and my husband abused me for it. She teaches this message to local women who are married to real jerks and you all might say psychological abusive because of their neglect, disdain or affairs, and she always works through the choice with them to leave him of stay. So far they have all chosen to stay, and so far, except for two, one is still a work in progress and the other only spoke to Lori twice, all their marriages were changed for the better, some radically.

What Lori teaches works and many here have had similar experiences treating their husbands with kindness even when they did not deserve it. It is a universal rule that if one is in a difficult relationship that they will impact the relationship for the better far more by being kind, generous and loving than by returning evil for evil. It is the Christian way, it is the way of Jesus, and this is directed towards the man they vowed to love forever through think and thin. They chose him and they love him, perhaps in spite of himself. My early marriage was no picnic but my commitment to true love and God's Word kept me going until I found the many blessings of marriage when our hearts were changed.

I actually agree with you that getting to the heart is the most important thing.

Love your neighbor as yourself, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The rest is commentary.

So, yes, I do think that loving and respecting your spouse at the very heart of a good marriage.

We disagree, though, on the idea that this is somehow the same as requiring a wife to obey a husband unconditionally.

You can have obedience without respect. A wife can obey a husband while privately thinking that he's immoral or an idiot, and just wait for God to punish him or for him to fall flat on his face. She can, in the word that Lori quoted from Debi Pearl, see her obedience as "heaping coals on the head of her enemy". It doesn't sound very loving or respectful to think of your own husband as your enemy.

You can also have respect without unconditional obedience.

[theologygeek]

I fully agree and I want you to put your fruit up against mine, and even if we both have great fruit, why do you need to name call when it is obvious that we are not peddling something false, but the truth of how we raised four fantastic children. Do your children love the Lord? Are they going to heaven? Are they happy and content? Are they in committed relationships, Do they have a loving relationship with both parents? I will match you any day,anyone here because what we did worked, like it or not, study or not.

My children all believe in God. They are also happy and in committed relationships. I'm divorced and am very close to my children. But my goal for each of my children was the same since day 1, and I'll bet that the goal wasn't the same as yours. I didn't stress the importance of getting all A's in school. They got good grades, but it wasn't important to me. I didn't stress the importance of being in committed relationships, yet they are all in them. What they did for a living wasn't important to me either. From the time they were toddlers, I stressed the importance of helping others. I took them to places you wouldn't dream of taking your children to. I exposed them to things that other parents would shelter their children from seeing. The goal for each of my children was to give of themselves to the less fortunate, and also to treat the poor, hungry, and suffering with respect, kindness, and love. This, right here, was the goal for each of my children:

“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’"

Would you like to get into a pissing contest about our children's fruits? Because I bet the bank that you will lose. I never hit a kid in my life, and my wild and crazy kids have no fear of doing things that would terrify you. Do you know what one of my kids does every morning before work? He goes to a state funded rehab, where people are lined up for their daily methadone dose, and he passes out sweets like packs of cookies or cakes. Some of these people are homeless, and many are very poor. Some of them have no one who shows them love, because they alienated everyone in their lives. Some of them never get even get a simple hug. So...tell me Ken...since you said that you will match anyone here, any day, then match me. What are your four fantastic children doing in the fruits department?

[Hisey]

Do you know what one of my kids does every morning before work? He goes to a state funded rehab, where people are lined up for their daily methadone dose, and he passes out sweets like packs of cookies or cakes. Some of these people are homeless, and many are very poor. Some of them have no one who shows them love, because they alienated everyone in their lives. Some of them never get even get a simple hug. So...tell me Ken...since you said that you will match anyone here, any day, then match me. What are your four fantastic children doing in the fruits department?

Your kid sounds great!

That's one thing I noticed about Lori. I have never, ever seen her post about doing charitable work or any work with the poor, sick or homeless. Never. I do see lots of posts about how she is pro-life yet wants to cut food stamps and government child care. But nothing about doing anything charitable. She may say her blog is her ministry, but really. . .writing a post a day? How is that making an effort?

Which is interesting, because with all her kids gone, it's not clear what she does to fill her day.

[theologygeek]

Your kid sounds great!

That's one thing I noticed about Lori. I have never, ever seen her post about doing charitable work or any work with the poor, sick or homeless. Never. I do see lots of posts about how she is pro-life yet wants to cut food stamps and government child care. But nothing about doing anything charitable. She may say her blog is her ministry, but really. . .writing a post a day? How is that making an effort?

Which is interesting, because with all her kids gone, it's not clear what she does to fill her day.

Thank you! My kids may be wild and crazy, and they drive me crazy. But you have to have an element of wild and crazy to get out in the world and help people. I don't follow Lori's blog. I read some posts but they made me ill. Cutting out food stamps...oh dear. She's one of those. I kind of figured as much. If these people loved Jesus like they say they do, His words would touch their hearts. His words would speak to them deep in their souls. I just can't see how anyone who claims to love Jesus would want to see anyone go hungry. It breaks my heart. Some people assume that everyone on food stamps is lazy and that is just not true. There are MANY reasons why people can't afford to buy food. It's not as easy as saying that they just need to get a job. Lori would know this if she got her ass off the computer, went into the real world, and communicated with the poor and suffering.

[lilith]

WOW... has the world moved that fast and far in 30 years that can call us Chalarans when we teach exactly what Americans believed and practiced 30-400 years ago. No, what is happening in this world is that loud voices like yours al cry foul on something you want to change. You get your liberal academics and other liberals to all scream at the top of your voice how spanking is so wrong even as you know that 75% of parents still practice it in some form.

Read this Wallstreet Journal article and I think it says it all... Your studies on spanking are flawed, your psychologist advocates are all liberal democrats, and you have zero proof that spanking in any reasonable way is not only effective. but worthwhile in training in discipline just as the Bible says.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 6491383915

http://www.amsci.com/dr-gunnoe-parents- ... -to-spank/

Why not leave it up to the parents who are responsible to raise their kids as to whether they sank or not? Why leave it up to the voices who want to drown out contrary opinion no matter what. The shouting by the minority gets so loud at times that it sounds like a majority, but their real purpose is control. You and your friends want to come into my home and control how I raise my children and how I think and teach others. This certainly is a battle for ideas, and I cannot measure the discipline of your children or their level of success, but you can measure my children and their success and discipline. Someone keeps saying "you will know them by their fruit." I fully agree and I want you to put your fruit up against mine, and even if we both have great fruit, why do you need to name call when it is obvious that we are not peddling something false, but the truth of how we raised four fantastic children. Do your children love the Lord? Are they going to heaven? Are they happy and content? Are they in committed relationships, Do they have a loving relationship with both parents? I will match you any day,anyone here because what we did worked, like it or not, study or not.

Ken, I've tried very hard to be accommodating of you and your world view. But are you seriously suggesting I should beat my children so that they will love a Jewish god I don't believe in and not go to a hell that all logic implies cannot exist?

My kids are all under 11. But my criteria for "success" in child rearing is that they are happy and that they help and don't hurt those around them. That's it. I hope they are close to me as adults, but their happiness is far more important to me than their relationship with me. I don't care if they are in committed relationships, so long as they are happy.

Sometimes I feel like smacking my kids, especially when my boys were younger. I recognise that as a failing in myself and send them to their room til I have calmed down and can deal with them calmly and fairly. Cause I'm the adult. I'm the one who is meant to have impulse control.

[latraviata]

WOW... has the world moved that fast and far in 30 years that can call us Chalarans when we teach exactly what Americans believed and practiced 30-400 years ago. No, what is happening in this world is that loud voices like yours al cry foul on something you want to change. You get your liberal academics and other liberals to all scream at the top of your voice how spanking is so wrong even as you know that 75% of parents still practice it in some form.

Read this Wallstreet Journal article and I think it says it all... Your studies on spanking are flawed, your psychologist advocates are all liberal democrats, and you have zero proof that spanking in any reasonable way is not only effective. but worthwhile in training in discipline just as the Bible says.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 6491383915

http://www.amsci.com/dr-gunnoe-parents- ... -to-spank/

Why not leave it up to the parents who are responsible to raise their kids as to whether they sank or not? Why leave it up to the voices who want to drown out contrary opinion no matter what. The shouting by the minority gets so loud at times that it sounds like a majority, but their real purpose is control. You and your friends want to come into my home and control how I raise my children and how I think and teach others. This certainly is a battle for ideas, and I cannot measure the discipline of your children or their level of success, but you can measure my children and their success and discipline. Someone keeps saying "you will know them by their fruit." I fully agree and I want you to put your fruit up against mine, and even if we both have great fruit, why do you need to name call when it is obvious that we are not peddling something false, but the truth of how we raised four fantastic children. Do your children love the Lord? Are they going to heaven? Are they happy and content? Are they in committed relationships, Do they have a loving relationship with both parents? I will match you any day,anyone here because what we did worked, like it or not, study or not.

I am not a liberal democrat I am not even American. According to the political standards in my (secular) country you could consider me as moderately conservative, which is absolutely not the same as the American equivalent.

The articles are not very impressive.

My oldest son is a neuroradiologist, my late youngest son worked for the Dutch Department of Justice and was a graduate in business adminstration and a beginning author.

Yes we, their late father and I have and had a very close relationship. Personally in my cohort of family, friends and acquaintances nobody spanked their children, it is not exactly in the Dutch tradition to do so and it is prohibited by law. Just compare the rates of juvenile delinquency in your country.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/child-a ... ation.aspx

We were not nearly as fanatic about our atheism as you are about christianity.

As a developmental psychologist (university professor emeritus) I was a judicial expert witness in court and I had to evaluate many, many cases of child abuse.

I'd like to think I know what I am talking about.

I am not in favour of too much government intervention regarding child rearing, but it is a good thing that by law, children have rights and the right to protection.

Indirectly you payed me a great compliment assuming I am an American liberal democrat, apparantly my English isn't as poor as I thought it was.

[dairyfreelife]

Ken,

I am sure you love your kids and they seem like a nice bunch of young adults. But you portray them as outstanding achievers, when really, I don't see that.

Only 3/4 of them went to college

None are employed at a full time job outside the family business

Only one is a professional

Only one has a graduate degree

Only one lives close by to you (indicating a close relationship)

Only one (your orthodontist son) seems like he will be able to support himself financially without your assistance

Well...I really hate to side against you, but am gonna have to on a couple of these, sorry Hisey. His orthodontist son actually doesn't work in the family business to my understanding. He lives in NY state to my understanding and is supporting himself. Also, not living close by doesn't a parent and grown child don't have a close relationship. I know a number of people who had to move away from parents as adults for jobs, but they still have a very close relationship with them. Not saying that his children do have one, just that not living close by does not mean the relationship is not close.

Besides that, do carry on.

[geeklove]

Ken, why is that unconditional love a one way street in marriage? You speak of wives loving and accepting their husbands as they are but husbands are allowed to discipline/correct their wives to make them into wife they want. A wife is to mold herself physically and emotionally to her husband's desires but it isn't reciprocal. Does that mean that women are more Christ-like then men?

[Micah]

There's something incredibly sickening about the phrase "A spanking has to hurt in order to be effective." :-( If you, as a grown fucking adult, can't find a way to outsmart and reason with a child then ya doin' it wrong.

Kid won't pick up toys? Option A) Spend four hours beating him/her, getting nothing else accomplished and having to listen to a hysterical child scream because their mother or father is HURTING them!

Option B) "Oh dear, child, there's toys all on the floor! Betcha I can pick up more than you! Hey, look I've got three picked up, quick I'm beating you!" And afterwards. "Look at that! Doesn't it look much nicer with all the toys off the floor? Good job helping! You totally beat me at picking them up! High five!"

Huh......I know which one I go for and which one consistently works EVERY TIME, even on my strong willed, contrary seven year old. You, Ken, are an asshat!

[formergothardite]

So why did Lori delete Tuesday's post? Was it just too nice and didn't blame the woman enough? Inquiring minds want to know.

I realize that Ken has ignored all questions that point out how Lori gives blanket advise based on a limited knowledge of the situation and how she is very biased in her approach towards women. And then there is the whole hanging out with a rape advocate(did Ken ever say if SSM was still a True Christian after realizing this?). But I do understand why he is and why he desperately is trying to deflect all of those sorts of questions to another topic. Part of him, even if he doesn't admit it to himself, must realize that Lori isn't qualified to give advice to women over the internet. He can't address them because he knows he can't show that she is not doing these things, and if he can't show she isn't doing them, then he will have to admit that she really isn't a good mentor. I think even Ken isn't going to try and claim that a good, wise mentor gives blanket advise based on limited knowledge, assumptions and a strong bias. So he is just going to ignore and deflect all those sorts of questions because despite all the claims of Lori being submissive, I bet there would be hell to pay in that house if he dared to acknowledge that she might not be not qualified to blog about submission.

[latraviata]

There's something incredibly sickening about the phrase "A spanking has to hurt in order to be effective." :-( If you, as a grown fucking adult, can't find a way to outsmart and reason with a child then ya doin' it wrong.

Kid won't pick up toys? Option A) Spend four hours beating him/her, getting nothing else accomplished and having to listen to a hysterical child scream because their mother or father is HURTING them!

Option B) "Oh dear, child, there's toys all on the floor! Betcha I can pick up more than you! Hey, look I've got three picked up, quick I'm beating you!" And afterwards. "Look at that! Doesn't it look much nicer with all the toys off the floor? Good job helping! You totally beat me at picking them up! High five!"

Huh......I know which one I go for and which one consistently works EVERY TIME, even on my strong willed, contrary seven year old. You, Ken, are an asshat!

That is the proper way to do it!!! Bravo!!!

It has an element of teaching playfulness, good example and reward.

Exactly what a child of that age needs and understands.

[16strong]

I'm sort of bouncing off you here, formergothardite. A few thoughts: Lori's blog is Lori's one true domain (pun intended). Without it, she would have no way for anyone to listen to her and make her feel important. That's what Lori's 'advice column' is. It's a way for her to feel important in a marriage where she doesn't. But of course, the more she spews her dominionist bullshit, the less convincing she becomes. She's only using dominionism to try and get what she wants in her marriage, but ultimately can't. She's chasing her own tail, but has no clue:

Ken acts like an ass to Lori, remains unapologetic --->

Lori, feeling at fault for Ken's poor behavior towards her, tightens her own reigns, using dominionism as both an excuse and a means to an end --->

Ken continues to treat Lori like crap --->

Lori continues to tighten her own reigns, again feeling at fault and etc, etc.

She's cutting off her oxygen supply to try and save her own life. Never gonna happen. Anyways, my point here is that from what I see, Lori uses her blog, and more specifically her Q&A to pretend that others "need" her. Because she knows Ken doesn't, at least not emotionally. She's mostly home all day. She primarily sees kids and hubby. So if he's not providing her with a sense of self-worth, and she's never figured out how to have it for herself on her own, she has to get it somewhere. So ultimately, this leads us to Ken refusing to answer questions about her Q&A or acknowledge its poor quality, because he knows it provides her with her only sense of self-worth and thus is the only glue holding her (and the marriage) together. This is my personal opinion. Perhaps I am off the mark, but I am telling what I see from where I am sitting.

[treemom]

Just popping in quick before I head to work to say, no, your husband is not your neighbor although I do think loving him is pretty important. But Jesus was pretty clearly on the neighbor thing when he illustrated it using the parable of the Good Samaritan. It is about love to the point of tangible cost anyone, especially those who hate and despise you and especially those you hate and despise.

The point of that verse was not directed to people to love those they are close to.

[polecat]

Thanks for finding it. Our position is that the sting has to hurt to be effective. Far too often parents spank with no effect because it doesn't hurt. I doubt everyone on FJ is a treehuggers or against shooting a deer, etc. but I think your sensibilities need to toughen up a bit. This is not a prissy world out there and especially our boys are put into sports where the pain can be ten times any spanking.

You're right: This isn't a "prissy" world. And you've reared your children with the goal of surviving the world. I'm rearing my children with the goal of changing the world. We're on two completely different sides of the coin.

[Koala]

As I have said before, I like things to be crystal clear. I don't like to rephrase what someone has said, so I find it is best to use direct quotes. Addressing your own words is much easier that addressing what someone *thinks* you said.

File Under: What exactly is Ken's definition of abuse, if this does not qualify?

Mom:

I had one that would never give in to anything, regardless of punishment, spanking did nothing but make her worse, time outs where a joke, finally I picked her up and threw her under a cold shower

Lori Alexander:

A spanking will work if it is hard enough

Mom:

Not with her, we tried hand, and although I was against it belt, wooden spoon, cane everything she would just keep going, I stopped after I thought I broke her arm...

Ken Alexander:

Listen I get the issue that we need to protect against abuse, but you know full well this was not an abusive mother.

File Under: Blatant Inconsistencies

Ken Alexander:

after the age of seven it is too late for spankings to be very effective in my opinion.

if I had a teenage boy who did something really bad, I would make sure he felt his spanking and never did it again if I thought that was necessary

File Under: Ken's Response To Quotes Where SSM Directly Endorses Marital Rape (and yes these responses were after reading her quotes)

SSM

Repeal marital rape laws – not because men are just dying to rape women (they aren’t) but because these laws give women the mistaken impression that they have the right to refuse sex with their husbands.

Why: If we want men to have to marry in order to have access to sex – which is necessary if we are going to foster traditional sex roles and enhance family formation – they must have assurance that they will actually get sex after they marry. If a woman wants to live in a man’s house and eat of his bread, she had better be willing to serve him in this way (barring illness of course); if she refuses to give it to him, he should have the option to take what is rightfully his.

Ken Alexander:

I see a brilliant writer and advocate for submission in a Christian marriage, but you and your friends are giving Lori and me pause to reevaluate.

File Under: Reformed Whores

SSM:

Consider asking your husband if he would be willing to spank you as part of foreplay.

Please don’t panic. Spanking is not a slippery slope that will lead to BDSM, disturbing fetishes or deviant sexual practices. I can promise you that from personal experience; you won’t be spanked one day and in leather restraints the next. Some people practice Christian Domestic Discipline, but that is actually not what I am recommending either. This is only to be about increasing your attraction to him by having him display dominance via consensual sexual aggression.

It is his decision if he would be willing to try this; this may be outside his comfort zone completely, and he may be feeling very mistrustful of you, but if he is willing to try it, you may not be sure of what to do. Here is one possible way to go: first, ask him to buy a wooden hair brush that has a very flat back (the curved ones tend to leave more bruises). The brush should be on your dresser.

He can sit down on the edge of the bed and tell you to bring the brush to him. Get it, and then kneel down on the floor in front of him and hand the brush to him. He can then pull you firmly but lovingly across his lap, either with lingerie on or no bottoms. It might be easier to have your legs supported on the bed, but your hands off the bed so that you are slightly off balance. He can then administer the spanking; he might want to know that he can swat fairly hard without causing bruises, but even if you do have a bruise the next day, you won’t die.

The number of strokes should be up to him, not you; he decides when the spanking is over (h/t 7man for that idea), not you. When he is done, get on your knees in front of him and say thank you to him. You should thank him because he is doing something that may be outside his comfort zone in order to help you, and you do not deserve it. He is doing this out of love for you, so show him the gratitude he so richly deserves.

Scripture to meditate upon: For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:11

(AFTER reading these quotes Ken Alexander said):

BUT SSM made very clear to Lori she is not an advocate of Domestic Discipline

SSM is teaching some sex training for a previous whore

File Under: Ken Weighs In On Emotional Abuse

Ken Alexander:

just because a wife is emotionally abused does not mean she should leave her man or take him to the elders, or separate.

File Under: You Are Running In the Wrong Circles

Ken Alexander:

And I have to add Questioning... you are running in the wrong circles if you are hearing all these stories of abuse, or you are working in a shelter for abused women.

File Under: The Physical Approach: Leeway For Husbands

Ken Alexander:

I believe that many wives and husbands would respond well to a physical approach to dealing with such trying or out of control times. Allowing a husband leeway to decide how to deal with his wife is part of submission and vulnerability.

File Under: The Misbehaving Wife and The Wall

Ken Alexander:

What if you quietly walked over to your wife who is seemingly out of control and you placed your hands on her arms and pinned her to the wall, or you gave her a bear hug for a moment where she could not move, and then you kissed her a few times then whispered in her ear, “I love you, but this is totally unacceptable behavior. Please stop.’â€

File Under: Those "Perfect" Alexanders

Ken Alexander:

If you think the Alexanders or me, we sound too perfect... you are correct.

[Koala]

Oh, and the above post?

File Under: The Internet Is Forever. Spread The Word.

[latraviata]

You're right: This isn't a "prissy" world. And you've reared your children with the goal of surviving the world. I'm rearing my children with the goal of changing the world. We're on two completely different sides of the coin.

Yes and by fear!

The best way to survive or to change (which is a far better starting point) the world is to rear children in building self confidence, not beating the living daylights out of them because they refused to pick uo their toys.

[theologygeek]

You're right: This isn't a "prissy" world. And you've reared your children with the goal of surviving the world. I'm rearing my children with the goal of changing the world. We're on two completely different sides of the coin.

What are you, some kind of a new age hippie? Who raises their children to change the world and help the poor? Where did you get such a crazy idea from? Obviously this conversation can't include you because you're not a good Christian. Good Christians don't care about that kind of nonsense. Heathen. Your mother didn't hit you enough, did she? I don't know what other explanation there could possibly be for having such an outlandish goal for your children.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Just popping in quick before I head to work to say, no, your husband is not your neighbor although I do think loving him is pretty important. But Jesus was pretty clearly on the neighbor thing when he illustrated it using the parable of the Good Samaritan. It is about love to the point of tangible cost anyone, especially those who hate and despise you and especially those you hate and despise.

The point of that verse was not directed to people to love those they are close to.

I'm most familiar with the first appearance of that phrase in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), although I knew that it was repeated by Jesus.

In Hebrew, the word translated as "neighbor" is re'a, which is often translated as friend. I found one reference to a husband and wife which used the same word.

So, I read it as including husbands and wives, even though it also includes those that we may not like so much. In any case, it makes sense that whether or not your spouse is being particularly likeable at a particular time, you are supposed to have a certain baseline of love, concern and human decency toward them. [That goes for both husbands and wives.] That doesn't mean that you do everything that they ask. I have clients who have love and compassion and human decency toward spouses that struggle with addiction or mental illness, for example, and sometimes the response needs to be "given the situation, you must work on your issues before we can be sure that it is safe for you to be around your children unsupervised".

[2xx1xy1JD]

I found the comment about using cold showers as discipline particularly disturbing, because it came shortly after the Hanna Williams trial.

Hanna Williams' adoptive parents were convicted, one of manslaughter and the other of homicide by abuse, after she died of hypothermia. The court heard evidence that cold showers were a frequent punishment. The parents owned a copy of To Train Up a Child.

Lori insisted that she didn't think that anyone other than some sick, abusive idiot could misuse the Pearl's teachings - but she doesn't call out the cold showers and say "hey, be careful about going to far with this, hypothermia can be dangerous."

[theologygeek]

I'm most familiar with the first appearance of that phrase in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), although I knew that it was repeated by Jesus.

In Hebrew, the word translated as "neighbor" is re'a, which is often translated as friend. I found one reference to a husband and wife which used the same word.

So, I read it as including husbands and wives, even though it also includes those that we may not like so much. In any case, it makes sense that whether or not your spouse is being particularly likeable at a particular time, you are supposed to have a certain baseline of love, concern and human decency toward them. [That goes for both husbands and wives.] That doesn't mean that you do everything that they ask. I have clients who have love and compassion and human decency toward spouses that struggle with addiction or mental illness, for example, and sometimes the response needs to be "given the situation, you must work on your issues before we can be sure that it is safe for you to be around your children unsupervised".

Luke was written in Greek. The word used for neighbor was plesion. It simply meant the person next to you. Could be anyone. According to theological dictionaries, re'a covered everything from friend and wife to fellow human being.

[polecat]

Yes and by fear!

The best way to survive or to change (which is a far better starting point) the world is to rear children in building self confidence, not beating the living daylights out of them because they refused to pick uo their toys.

I'm sorry that I wasn't clearer: Obviously I do not agree that hitting one's children is the best way to go about child-rearing. What Ken has done is taught his kids to survive miserable circumstances. What you are talking about is giving kids the tools to thrive in any circumstances. The latter will always be preferable to the former.