Lori thinks it's okay to hit a 5 month old with a switch

[moodygirl86]

Sorry, posted that twice due to shit PC.

[sparkles]

1. Do your children (you) run into the street in front of cars?

2. Do your children (you) put their fingers in light sockets?

3. Are your children (you) generally polite/well-mannered in company?

4. Are your adult children (you) gainfully employed or seeking higher education?

5. Are your older children (you) currently drug addicts?

6. Are your school-age children (you) toilet trained?

1. No. A 6 YO Sparklet actually pulled me back to the curb once when I attempted to cross us mid-block with no traffic and said "Mommy, you told me that's not safe."

2. No

3. From the time she was very small, perfect strangers and others who encountered the Sparklet would tell me what a polite, well-mannered kid she was (and still is). She can easily engage anyone in conversation (without the aid of a book and without an agenda--see Maxwell, Steve).

4. Yes and yes. Sparklet is 23, has been living on her own for the past 3 years and is fully self-supporting.

5. No

6. Well, she's 23 now so yeah, but because she was born with a neural tube defect that could have affected her bladder control, we were advised (by ebil doctors!) to let things progress naturally when it came to toilet training. We did just that until the time she was 3 and it was pretty clear to everyone that there were no issues. She was trained over one weekend without prodding once we put the idea into her head. Can you imagine how the Pearls/Lori would have handled a situation like that?

All this and she has never, EVER been hit and rarely yelled at.

[Full enough quiver]

When my daughter was a toddler, before I knew better, my daughter got a swat on the behind once or twice for disobedience. The swat stopped the behavior, but so did a gentle verbal correction. The verbal correction also had the advantage of teaching why the behavior is wrong, and teaching her the correct behavior in the future. Since age 18 months, I have never struck, or threatened to strike my daughter, who is now almost 13. I have never raised my voice or called her names. I never babyproofed, and yet my daughter managed not to stick her finger in a socket, or break any of my great grandmother's antiques, which she could easily reach.

Ive been a stepmother to my oldest since she was 10, knew her since age 9. She is now 15. Her mother never spanked, but she was a yeller. My oldest is well behaved, but sometimes lacks self confidence, and has a hard time making decisions. She needs a lot of reassurance and praise.

I've had my nephews (8 and 10) living with me for 7 months. I have not struck, threatened to strike, or raised my

voice to them. They do require somewhat frequent verbal correction. My sister spanked, yelled, name called, hot sauced, you name it for every behavior under the sun, resulting in anger and rebellion, then more punishments, and I believe it has affected their self esteem, so for every correction, I try to include plenty of honest praise to build them up. The boys see the difference, and they respond with better behavior.

Both girls are perfectly behaved in every way. I can't recall the last time either of them required even the slightest verbal correction. They study and do chores without being asked, they are kind to each other, they help with the boys, everything you could want, no rebellion whatsoever. The boys' behavior needs work, but it is getting better. Would it be easier and quicker to smack it out of them? Probably. But the results would not be as good in the long term for them or for society.

[sandberry]

I've definitely noted over years on different forums that the children of parents who smack are far more likely than the average child to run into the street in front of cars, stick their fingers in electric sockets or otherwise endanger their lives at regular intervals. Of course once they have been smacked they never attempt these things again.

I think it would be an interesting research study to find out

a) why children of parents who smack regularly attempt to kill themselves at such an early age while the parents of children who don't smack don't seem to spend their time pursuing these life endangering activities

b) whether after one smack children can really be safely left alone with a nail and an electrical socket or can walk unsupervised along a busy highway.

I have some idea as to what the results of this study may be

[Micah]

I was smacked as a child, by my Dad mainly. My parents were deeply religious at the time. I don't think it messed me up, but I do vividly remember being walloped for a long time at about age nine. Dad kept hitting until I admitted doing something that I HAD NOT DONE. It was another child at the place we were staying. It still makes me furious to this day that he wouldn't listen to me. Every other spanking that I clearly remember was for really bad behavior. I was not an easy child.

With my own child, he is not spanked now, ever. When people start with the spanking debate with me, I share my experience with my son with them. Quite a few times it has made dedicated spanking advocates go away and think quite hard.

When son was little, between the ages of one and four, he was a nightmare child. He'd throw forty minute screaming tantrums. He didn't sleep through the night, he'd bite, kick, scratch and throw things at me. He'd NEVER do as he was told, no matter how it was phrased. I couldn't take him anywhere because he'd always do something that had me in tears of embarrassment and shame. I will admit that a few times I did smack him. I was at my wits end and my father's only advice was that son needed 'discipline'. It didn't work and made me feel like a bad mother and a terrible human being. (The fundies who really beat their children with switches and plumbing line must have to really work to kill their natural mother instinct. Giving my son a bare handed swat made me feel sick). So I took parenting courses, three of them. None really helped.

And then, a lady who has worked with people with disabilites for forty years pulled me aside one day (I'm forever grateful to this woman). She said she didn't want to upset me because she'd had parents take it badly before, but that I should get son's hearing tested ASAP. She said that EVERYTHING she'd observed in him where clear symptoms of hearing loss. I got him tested the next week. Turns out he had sixty to seventy percent hearing loss in both ears, stemming from chronic ear infections that he'd been having since he was a baby. His entire world sounded like it was under water. He couldn't hear people talk unless they shouted at a certain pitch, but at the same time crowded places where a thundering wall of unidentifiable noise. Amazingly his speech hadn't been impaired (the people at the hearing place are still puzzling over that one. He's a very visual child. They've put it down to him being able to hear just enough and learning to lip read). A simple operation later and he is %100 percent a different child. He's smart, independent, emphathic and very well behaved. I can take him anywhere and always get compliments on his behavior. He's got an amazing sense of self worth. He is beautiful.

So, when people tell me that spanking is fine and ok and it never hurt them. I tell them that I could have followed that path with son and just 'beat it out of him,' instead of struggling and striving to find out why and what was wrong. When people tell me that their child is constantly a horror I tell them to find out what's wrong. Children aren't naturally bad, or sinful. THey don't TRY to drive their parents up the wall. They're not a separate species. They're just small, less complicated human beings. Children are a lot less complicated to figure out than adults and we're not allowed to go around walloping adults who misbehave.

[Full enough quiver]

I wonder how the fundies would suggest a person get an adult to do something they want. What if you want something from your sister, your boss, or your neighbor? I assume you would ask nicely. Why wouldn't you treat your child with the same courtesy you'd treat a neighbor, co worker, or friend? Wouldn't you treat your child with more courtesy than your heathen neighbor? I mean, since children are such blessings and all. When dealing with my children, I always ask myself "would I talk to my friend or co worker that way? What if I talked like that to my neighbor or my boss?" If I wouldn't say it or do it to an adult, then it's not ok for my kid. Simple.

[sparkles]

Micah, your story literally brought tears to my eyes. One thing I've always maintained about parents who use violence to "train" their children is that they're LAZY. Good parenting means hard work and dedication, learning about and respecting your child as an individual, not settling for easy answers. For all of their quacking about children being blessings, so many fundies seem to look on them as an inconvenience. None of the training has a basis in love; it's all because beating their kids into submission gets them out of their hair.

P.S. I can truly understand what your son must have been going through. I'm currently adjusting to 100% deafness in my right ear and there are days when I'm so frustrated that I want to scream and cry. For a child without the coping mechanisms we develop as adults, it must have been a nightmare. I'm glad he's doing so well!

[latraviata]

I was smacked as a child, by my Dad mainly. My parents were deeply religious at the time. I don't think it messed me up, but I do vividly remember being walloped for a long time at about age nine. Dad kept hitting until I admitted doing something that I HAD NOT DONE. It was another child at the place we were staying. It still makes me furious to this day that he wouldn't listen to me. Every other spanking that I clearly remember was for really bad behavior. I was not an easy child.

With my own child, he is not spanked now, ever. When people start with the spanking debate with me, I share my experience with my son with them. Quite a few times it has made dedicated spanking advocates go away and think quite hard.

When son was little, between the ages of one and four, he was a nightmare child. He'd throw forty minute screaming tantrums. He didn't sleep through the night, he'd bite, kick, scratch and throw things at me. He'd NEVER do as he was told, no matter how it was phrased. I couldn't take him anywhere because he'd always do something that had me in tears of embarrassment and shame. I will admit that a few times I did smack him. I was at my wits end and my father's only advice was that son needed 'discipline'. It didn't work and made me feel like a bad mother and a terrible human being. (The fundies who really beat their children with switches and plumbing line must have to really work to kill their natural mother instinct. Giving my son a bare handed swat made me feel sick). So I took parenting courses, three of them. None really helped.

And then, a lady who has worked with people with disabilites for forty years pulled me aside one day (I'm forever grateful to this woman). She said she didn't want to upset me because she'd had parents take it badly before, but that I should get son's hearing tested ASAP. She said that EVERYTHING she'd observed in him where clear symptoms of hearing loss. I got him tested the next week. Turns out he had sixty to seventy percent hearing loss in both ears, stemming from chronic ear infections that he'd been having since he was a baby. His entire world sounded like it was under water. He couldn't hear people talk unless they shouted at a certain pitch, but at the same time crowded places where a thundering wall of unidentifiable noise. Amazingly his speech hadn't been impaired (the people at the hearing place are still puzzling over that one. He's a very visual child. They've put it down to him being able to hear just enough and learning to lip read). A simple operation later and he is %100 percent a different child. He's smart, independent, emphathic and very well behaved. I can take him anywhere and always get compliments on his behavior. He's got an amazing sense of self worth. He is beautiful.

So, when people tell me that spanking is fine and ok and it never hurt them. I tell them that I could have followed that path with son and just 'beat it out of him,' instead of struggling and striving to find out why and what was wrong. When people tell me that their child is constantly a horror I tell them to find out what's wrong. Children aren't naturally bad, or sinful. THey don't TRY to drive their parents up the wall. They're not a separate species. They're just small, less complicated human beings. Children are a lot less complicated to figure out than adults and we're not allowed to go around walloping adults who misbehave.

Thank god for that lady!

Before treating a child I always required a full medical check and once and a while there was indeed a physical cause for certain behaviour.

[Hisey]

Lori and Ken are backtracking quite a bit, and are now saying that

they don't believe in hitting babies

neither do the Pearls (the Pearls just made a mistake when they were young)

hitting babies does't hurt them, anyhoos, but it does change the behavior immediately and forever

it's not hitting, anyway, it's "spanking"

it's not even spanking, it's "twigging"

it's not a switch, it's a twig

though they don't believe in hitting infants, if they did, 5 month olds are no longer infants

If you read her facebook, one of Lori's followers provides direct quotes from TTUAC proving that the Pearls do believe in hitting babies. Lori respond that she "doesn't have time" to "argue every point in the book."

[twinmama]

(The fundies who really beat their children with switches and plumbing line must have to really work to kill their natural mother instinct. Giving my son a bare handed swat made me feel sick). So I took parenting courses, three of them. None really helped.

So, so much this. I feel sick at the end of the day when I've yelled too much. I hate that I yell at my kids, but sometimes I can just see no other way. I try so hard not to yell unless they're in danger, but I slip up in the heat of the moment from time to time. I cannot imagine what it would take for me to hit my kids with a switch. I wouldn't hit a DOG with a switch, let alone a person I love more than my own life that I gave birth to.

hitting babies does't hurt them

So hitting a baby doesn't hurt them, but I'm sure they'd argue that a 6 week fetus feels pain, right??

[littlemommy]

I can't imagine letting one of my kids' grandparents, aunts, uncles, neighbors, etc being ever allowed to babysit them if I'd read some of the stuff Lori has written. If she truly believes it is the 'right thing' then she would have no problem abusing someone else's child. You know, for Jesus.

[salex]

I wonder how the fundies would suggest a person get an adult to do something they want. What if you want something from your sister, your boss, or your neighbor? I assume you would ask nicely. Why wouldn't you treat your child with the same courtesy you'd treat a neighbor, co worker, or friend? Wouldn't you treat your child with more courtesy than your heathen neighbor? I mean, since children are such blessings and all. When dealing with my children, I always ask myself "would I talk to my friend or co worker that way? What if I talked like that to my neighbor or my boss?" If I wouldn't say it or do it to an adult, then it's not ok for my kid. Simple.

It seems that this is where a lot of the people we follow fall apart. The dominionists are very much about "order of authority" husband over wife, parents over children, minister/law over flock/society. And since a lot of them can't deal with anyone not doing what they want, they start their own businesses, no matter how small, they home school and home church, they cut themselves off from people who are "different" And, if their neighbor is not Christian, many of them believe that they should be treated as not quite citizens, as not equal to Christians, etc. ALl their "xyz should be stoned" is the same school of thinking as "beat your children well."

[Koala]

OMG, they just.can't.stop.

From the comments:

IF you would hit yourself with a TRUE switch (made of willow) and then tell us how it feels I'll buy it. Not some twig.

A twig you might as well hit a child with yarn or a ribbon... This is laughable.

Ken's (disgusting) response:

Lori got a 12 inch by 1/8th inch twig, the size described by the Pearls, and we used it on each other.We felt something from it, cold see a little pink color, but nothing that could be called even discomfort.

Jesus Christ, can you imagine? These two are grandparents twice over and they are sitting around the house switching each other. Good god, keep your kink off your blog. Your family doesn't want to read about it.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I bet that really got them in the mood for sex. I bet they keep a piece of plumbing line under the bed for when theyre feeling kinky.

[Arete]

I am so going to pretend I never saw that.....

God is punishing me for peaking on FJ at work.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Dear Lori and Ken,

Drop the persecution complex, please.

Failure to immediately buy TTUAC and disagreeing with the idea that it's the best discipline book ever does not mean that anyone is being persecuted or denied grace or judged harshly.

I can extend grace to someone who mistreated a child in the past (and in fact have spent years working with parents involved in child protection cases). That doesn't mean that I will automatically trust that person with a child in the future, and it definitely doesn't mean that I'll go to that person for child rearing advice.

Also, you guys are arguing out of both sides of your mouths.

You say that everyone's parenting decisions should be respected and we shouldn't be judgmental....but really, the Bible tells us to use the rod. And to have mothers stay at home and fathers support the family. And to stay married even if the marriage is bad and even if there is infidelity. And to be submissive wives. 'Cause we can all do what we want, but if we don't listen to them, we're going against God. But no, let's not judge anyone.....

[docmom]

Lori got a 12 inch by 1/8th inch twig, the size described by the Pearls, and we used it on each other.We felt something from it, cold see a little pink color, but nothing that could be called even discomfort.

Hey, Ken, if you want to spank each other, go ahead, but don't for an instant suggest that just because it doesn't "hurt" you it doesn't hurt a baby. Babies are small. That "twig" is big to a baby. If you want to approximate what a baby feels, try hitting yourselves with a "twig" that is appropriately scaled up. Then report back on whether it hurts.

[formergothardite]

This thread reminded me of this:

htskepticalavenger.tumblr.com/post/48702842739/we-are-not-what-im-aiming-for

It says:

I don't hit my kid.

I have friends who say

"What do you mean you don't hit her?

You got to hit her! We got hit when we were kids, remember? We got hit!"

And then I have to have that awkward conversation where I explain that WE are not what I'm aiming for.

[lawlifelgbt]

This thread scares me. My parents didn't spank, but sometimes my dad would explode and yell at me, and he hurt the dog a few times. Mom was worse, though. She's a teacher, and would insist that I get straight A's all the time. I was able to do that until about fifth grade, when math started to get much harder. I did everything I could; I had a teacher that would let us "redo" homework and get 1/2 the missed points back, so I would redo homework every time I missed a single problem. I spent more time on my math than anything. I got help from my teachers.

It didn't work to the extent of letting me keep being a perfect student. I could get up to a B+ on my own if I killed myself trying, but not higher. Expectations stayed the same, though. So, as I got older, I never got to:

-Use the computer at all for fun;

-Use or have my iPod;

(during the school year; they would be preemptively taken to "make SURE you get straight A's");

-Watch ANY TV;

-Go do things with friends except for my best friend, whose parents were just as strict.

-See any movies.

I also had to go to the gym for at least an hour at least three times a week, and would get a death glare when I asked for or ate snacks or seconds. I had lots of chores to do no matter how tired I was (I was on the swim team for several years, and would have to, for example, vacuum every nook and cranny of the bottom floor right after a workout), and was often criticized for tiny things, even when trying to be nice or helpful (e.g. I bake cookies for family, clean up dishes, get screamed at for leaving crumbs).

If I did my best but it wasn't perfect, I'd be told "that's not your best." There was a ton of shaming, and sometimes when we'd argue, she'd grab me HARD by the arm/shoulder.

Sorry for the rant, but I have some issues even from mostly-psychological discipline that went too far! I can't even imagine the poor kids that get all that, plus the brute physicality "backing it up."

My survey answers:

1. Do your children (you) run into the street in front of cars? No kids yet, but I don't, and partner doesn't either.

2. Do your children (you) put their fingers in light sockets? No, although I was a gifted kid, so there were a few times as an older kid (8-11) when I would put anything in the microwave or try to rig up systems to lift things/people into my garage fort. That's different, and after I knew why those things were dangerous, I stopped.

3. Are your children (you) generally polite/well-mannered in company? Yes, unless that company is homophobic. If "company" hates me, that's not company I want.

4. Are your adult children (you) gainfully employed or seeking higher education? Yes. I'm in law school. Partner works full-time.

5. Are your older children (you) currently drug addicts? No.

6. Are your school-age children (you) toilet trained? Yes.

7. Relationship with parents? Pretty good with my dad (he mellowed out after a heart scare when I was 18, and aside from outbursts, he was a loving, indulgent parent). Distant and thinly-veiled politeness over animus for my mom. She doesn't approve of my sexuality, choice of partner, seems ashamed when I gain so much as a pound, and, I think, puts her reputation and what others will think over what's best for her family. I never go to my parents with problems or ask them for help beyond maybe "Can you bring some groceries/can we go look for new running shoes next time you visit?" I actually talk more to my mother-in-law than my mom!

[Rescinded and Mended]

Let's do a completely non-scientific FJ poll to see if it is possible to raise normal, functional adults without spanking...

If you are a parent and do not spank your children or if you grew up in a non-spanking household, please answer the following questions:

1. Do your children (you) run into the street in front of cars?

2. Do your children (you) put their fingers in light sockets?

3. Are your children (you) generally polite/well-mannered in company?

4. Are your adult children (you) gainfully employed or seeking higher education?

5. Are your older children (you) currently drug addicts?

6. Are your school-age children (you) toilet trained?

I had a mother who felt that the only way she could get her point across was to hit. She didn't spank - I got spanked when I went to my father's house, and it was nothing compared to being hit with a belt and slapped across the face at my mother's house. There were times she would get upset with me, forget about it, and when she remembered why she was upset originally, she'd come find me and just hit me as hard as she could across the face. I'd be left reeling and wondering what I did wrong. When I was 13, she hit me for the last time because I finally decided I'd had enough, and I punched her. I am not proud of this fact, but I did learn two things from it.

The first is that my mother clearly understood, at that moment, the thing that I'd been suffering with for years - that it is not fun to be beaten, punched or bullied in any way, shape or form. Her personal sense of preservation kicked in, and she figured out I was big enough to fight back. She didn't want to get hurt, so she stopped hitting me.

The second thing I realized was the overwhelming sense of irony in my situation - I had to hit her to get her to stop hitting me.

Now, as a parent, I have learned from my situation. I don't hit my son AT ALL.

To answer, no, my son never ran out in front of cars, and was good about staying with me when I asked him to, even from a young age. I did have electrical socket covers on the outlet holes, and one day he somehow managed to work one off and stuck something into it. Fortunately, he wasn't hurt, but it did cause a flash of light and it scared him so badly he never tried it again. We explained why he shouldn't do that and how electricity works, and he understood. He is very well-mannered and articulate. I get compliments about his manners and behavior all the time. A large part of my approach to parenting is to have him ask questions about everything, and then answer them to the best of my ability. I also used larger vocabulary words when speaking to him as a very young child, and encouraged him to ask for a definition if he didn't understand the word I used. His grades are excellent, and he has maintained mostly As, even through cancer treatment. He plans to be an engineer someday. Not currently employed, but I hope to return to college myself once his treatment ends. No one in the household does drugs, and everyone is definitely toilet trained.

Bottom line, you don't have to hit your child in order to parent effectively - you just need to learn how to communicate and be reasonable.

[Koala]

It shouldn't surprise any of you to know that Lori has up yet another post about spanking. Spank often and make sure it hurts :pull-hair:

One of the comments, however, caught my attention:

I had one that would never give in to anything, regardless of punishment, spanking did nothing but make her worse, time outs where a joke, finally I picked her up and threw her under a cold shower. The other one would push a bit but one look and he would do as he was told, he has been spanked maybe 4 or 5 times in his whole life. I empathise with this mother sometimes you just have to sit in a doorway..

:cry: :cry: When I think of this poor child at the hands of this out of control lunatic it makes me sick. She hit her and when that didn't work she picked her up and threw her in a cold shower??? I wonder how the fuck it would "work" for her if someone did that to her???

Lori's response? Hit harder of course!

A spanking will work if it is hard enough. We used a small leather strap on their behind and it hurt! There is no way a child will put up with that for long without obeying

That is twice in one post that she referred to hitting harder. From the post:

I know many of you are opposed to spanking but it works great if done consistently and hard enough so it hurts.

I hate to give Lori the attention, but I feel like it has to be brought to light every single time she pulls this shit. She is slowly turning up the heat (encouraging these women to take emotional/verbal abuse FROM their husbands, while simultaneously encouraging them to take their misery out on their kids). It's sick. At some point maybe someone in her family will realize she isn't able to make it more than a few days without posting on one of these subjects.

[sparkles]

I seriously wonder if her brain tumor is having an effect on her personality and behavior. I know she's been spouting the same bullshit for a long time but it really seems to have ramped up recently.

The thought that she "mentors" women who may be struggling and vulnerable chills me to the bone.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't know what effect the brain tumour is having. I do notice the short, simple sentences and the fact that she runs to Ken for reinforcement any time that she gets flack and the questions get hard.

The escalating force/pain stuff is scary. Cold showers were part of the torture used in the Hana Williams case. It also contradicts the original argument made in favor of the Pearls, that a small flick with a trig to train a very young child will magically be so effective that discipline problems disappear.

Once you escalate the pain, where does it end? Isn't that a big part of what drives some of these horrible older adoptee abuse cases? If you are caught up in a power struggle, and you feel you can't back down, how do you have the awareness to stop before it gets out of hand?

Other parenting techniques don't have the same risks. Can you be too good of a role model? Can you be too consistent? Can you take away harmful objects too much?

[lilwriter85]

I seriously wonder if her brain tumor is having an effect on her personality and behavior. I know she's been spouting the same bullshit for a long time but it really seems to have ramped up recently.

The thought that she "mentors" women who may be struggling and vulnerable chills me to the bone.

I also wonder if the brain tumors have had effects on her. But I suspect she was raised in a household where spanking was pushed. I know not all people who were spanked grew up and spanked their kids. There is something really off with Lori and how much she talks about spanking. I think she had blogged about spanking more than the PP and Zsu combined. PP has had a few disturbing sermons about spanking, but for some reason Lori kind of scares me more than the PP does.

I agree with you on the mentoring that really gives me chills because of many things Lori has said and promoted on her blog. I do have some relief that some women and/or couples have rejected Lori and Ken as mentors. She has admitted to that a few times and I do wonder if people at the megachurch she attends warn each other about Lori. But on the otherhand, Lori's church promotes that asswipe Mark Driscoll quite a bit. I've said it before, but I wouldn't be surprised if some tragedy happens due to Lori's blog or her "mentoring" of women.

[docmom]

I seriously wonder if her brain tumor is having an effect on her personality and behavior. I know she's been spouting the same bullshit for a long time but it really seems to have ramped up recently.

The thought that she "mentors" women who may be struggling and vulnerable chills me to the bone.

The tumor and its therapy may have released some inhibitions but they can't be blamed for her underlying beliefs. She believes it's fine to hit a baby with a stick and a small child with a belt. She believes abused women should stick it out. These beliefs aren't due to a tumor, they're the real Lori.