Duggars, Duggars & More Duggars - General Discussion Part 3

[lilith]

The Rodrigues clip sent me down the rabbit hole if fundie YouTube, and I noticed something that I've noticed before and never got around to posting.

When the families sing as a group, the mother is usually holding the baby. The songs they sing are always about Jesus, obviously, and when the baby fusses the mother makes eye contact with the baby and smiles while she sings to her, which makes perfect sense. But the Duggar fallback "It's through the blooooooood" includes the line "as he reads the awful charges, the question fills my mind, why should I not be put in hell to suffer for all time" and Michelle and Anna often sing that to the baby of the moment.

Isn't that a weird thing to be singing to an infant, especially with a pasted on smile? Kelly Bates does it too, but the Bates usually sing "The Love of God", which is far more suitable to direct to an infant.

[Miggy]

Kelly commented about Santoram once, because people were posting on her blog asking how she and her family could support an ebil Catholic. She said she was assured that Santorum had been saved, by confessing his sins and accepting Jesus as his savior, and that his anti-reporductive rights, anti-gay marriage, anti-socialism values were evidence of a True Christian. That was more important, she said, than other matters of theology, though she did disagree with him.

So, I think that's how they get around it - he speaks their language of salvation and values.

Hang on, hang on ... Santorum is ok because although he is an ebil Catholic who worships Mary and has idols, he hates gays and abortion. I am a fellow Protestant but I am ebil because I support gays and abortion. I don't understand?!?!

[lilith]

Hang on, hang on ... Santorum is ok because although he is an ebil Catholic who worships Mary and has idols, he hates gays and abortion. I am a fellow Protestant but I am ebil because I support gays and abortion. I don't understand?!?!

You're obviously not truly saved, cause if you were you'd think exactly like them. Santorum, despite the his membership in the Great Harlot of Rome, obviously is saved, cause he thinks just like them. Simple.

[Ellimenopy]

My prediction is that Josh will enjoy more political success than commonly thought. He is startlingly popular among mainstream conservatives - I can see him learning the right way to present himself whilst in Washington and going back to Arkansas and getting elected on a state level.

It's not nearly as hard to get involved with state politics as people normally assume, especially in rural areas.

[PennySycamore]

Cleopatra 7,

At first I read Santorum in your post as Sauron.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Am I the only one who is disturbed at the idea of Josiah being at ALERT camp?

[Dutch_girl]

I bet if they are engaged, it'll be announced during the pre-season Today Show visit. Like every other family announcement. Will they go there to announce J'Chelle's menopause too? I bet Boob will find a way to make money off of that.

[showhost] Ladies and gentleman, welcome back. Today the Duggar family is visiting us, and they have a veeeerrrry speshul anouncement. Jim Bob, what do you want to tell us?

[boob] Well.. my wife Michelle and I, we just found out that she entered menopause! Right honny?

[J'Chelle] Yes! It's such a blessing from the Lord, now I don't have to submit to my wonderfull husband every night!

[ILoveJellybeans]

Am I the only one who is disturbed at the idea of Josiah being at ALERT camp?

Nope, youre not the only one. He really doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would enjoy that. I can see Joseph enjoying something like that, but not Josiah, he doesn't seem like the physical exercise kind of person, he seems to like more creative things.

Hope theyre not trying to toughen him up cause they don't think he is acting enough like a boy. Hes fine the way he is, in fact, he is the most likeable out of the Duggar boys.

[Onomatopoetikon]

I pretty much think it's disturbing that all of them are more or less forced to attend things like that, but yeah, it doesn't really seem like something Josiah in particular would enjoy (I mean, I kind of don't like judging what he likes based on the show since the older kids haven't been featured as prominently lately, but for the sake of argument I'm gonna do it). I don't really know if they're trying to toughen him up any more than the others, since Joseph also went and he has always seemed pretty "boyish", but I generally don't like this whole "let's break them down so we can build them up the way we want" thing that they seem to be doing.

Most of these boys seem to be quite fond of their siblings/little kids, imo, which some might see as a feminine trait but I mostly just see as a consequence of the buddy system, having lots of siblings and also being a decent human being, I guess. And it kind of seems like they want to break them of this when they get older, if that makes sense, and toughen all of them up, as well as indoctrinate them, of course.

It really bothers me that they're in a way breaking the spirit of a lot of the kids. There is so much potential in these kids that will probably be squandered. For example, lots of the middle boys seem like they could be awesome people with diverse interests and they're super sociable and could probably do quite well in life, but I worry that by the time they get older, they'll have this "beaten" out of them because their rambunctious nature, which could be channeled into something great, doesn't sit well with the fundie culture. The same is true for Joy and Josiah, and Jana also seems like she's kind of resigned to the lifestyle. I do think the younger kids have a bigger chance at getting away since they've been exposed more to the outside world through the show at a younger age, but I don't know.

[nana sew dear]

Ah the Duggars...one of many families where when a male child shows a sensitive nature (and in Josiah's case, high intellect) it's time to brain wash it right out! What a shame.

Does anyone else think that Amy might be able to lead some of her cousins out of hell? Asking this because of her recent comments about GLBT.

[singsingsing]

I think people tend to read too much into JTTH and Alert. Pretty much every Duggar of a certain age has been to one or the other so I don't think it's necessarily indicative of anything.

[Coconut Flan]

Gothard pushes sending everyone to the camps - more money!

[singsingsing]

That's what I'm saying, these aren't like boot camps for rebellious teens (though I'm sure some fundie parents send their straying children in the hopes of reforming them), they're more like the Gothard equivalent of summer camp. Some of the kids we see at these things the most are the ones generally assumed the be the least rebellious.

[Onomatopoetikon]

Yeah, I agree that sending someone there doesn't really seem to indicate a rebellious nature or anything, but I do think it's highly questionable simply because of what both JTTH and ALERT teach and how they do it. It basically seems like the school of thought is "hey, let's remove these young adults from regular society and expose them to nothing but our world view and make them surrender to God whether they want to or not".

ALERT:

There is a degree of regimentation, high expectations regarding moral conduct, mandatory scheduled events, as well as restricted activities*. There is a strong emphasis on deepening a student’s walk with the Lord, scripture reading and scripture memorization as well as using one’s time wisely.

*To name a few, computer use is restricted to emails, you cannot write or email girls other than family members, no cell phones, no TV, ALERT must approve all music, you may not come and go as you please…

JTTH:

The Northwoods Conference Center is nestled in a breathtaking piece of God's creation, and it's remoteness, makes the time away so much more effective, as normal distractions are left behind.

While in the Northwoods they study through material which reveals 18 heart conditions from the Bible, both good, and bad. The purpose of this is to help root out issues, blind spots, or sins that are keeping each individual from surrendering to God and experiencing His love, grace, and victory.

[church_of_dog]

The Northwoods Conference Center is nestled in a breathtaking piece of God's creation, and it's remoteness, makes the time away so much more effective, as normal distractions are left behind.

While in the Northwoods they study through material which reveals 18 heart conditions from the Bible, both good, and bad. The purpose of this is to help root out issues, blind spots, or sins that are keeping each individual from surrendering to God and experiencing His love, grace, and victory.

… and when, in doubt, sprinkle a few, extra commas, around!

:lol:

[jaynie]

The insidious thing about the camps, in my opinion, is that they can be both desirable and brainwashy at the same time. They both use techniques common to cult camps, which have the effect of breaking people any quashing natural doubts, etc. But its not hard to imagine a suitably indoctrinated fundie teen or young adult signing up eagerly. While the rest of us as capable of seeing what's alarming about these places, Fundie Youths have been brought up to see that level of invasiveness and control as normal -even desirable!

I can also conceive of a rebellious teen being encouraged by true believer parents to go to jtth or alert, not as an explicit effort to get them back on the kool-aid drip, but to "heal their hearts" or "bring them closer to god" or whatever the appropriate fundiespeak would be. Members of cults seldom consider themselves as such, so they're unlikely to even consider that jtth and alert might be abusive. They'll think they're giving their children an important, positive experience. And the children likely think so too. Doesn't make it OK.

I think the most worrying thing about Josiah going to alert is that its hard to conceive he'd choose to go to a similar, secular camp if he'd been raised in what he might have once derisively called a "normal family" (although that is just based on impressions from the show). It makes it apparent how constrained and stereotyped their expectations for the j'kids are. Coupled with the idea that he is relatively sensitive, and the stirrings of discontent he appears to have been experiencing, its hard not to have a bad feeling about it, regardless of whether this was entirely his choice or JB's idea of toughening him up or what.

[Dandruff]

I doubt that Josiah would enjoy being there or would have volunteered to go. If this was his choice, then fine.

[GeoBQn]

I remember after the premiere of the episode where they went to England, someone on the FB page wrote this really awful post about how, in his opinion, Josiah was less of a man because he listened to the Stonehenge tour guide, asked him questions, and seemed sincerely interested in what the guide had to say. I felt so sad that he has to grow up in a family and culture where intellectual curiosity is regarded as suspicious and immediately squashed.

[Mela99]

[showhost] Ladies and gentleman, welcome back. Today the Duggar family is visiting us, and they have a veeeerrrry speshul anouncement. Jim Bob, what do you want to tell us?

[boob] Well.. my wife Michelle and I, we just found out that she entered menopause! Right honny?

[J'Chelle] Yes! It's such a blessing from the Lord, now I don't have to submit to my wonderfull husband every night!

That will never happen. J'Chelle will believe God will open her womb at will, and I'm still pretty convinced Boob is a horndog.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I remember after the premiere of the episode where they went to England, someone on the FB page wrote this really awful post about how, in his opinion, Josiah was less of a man because he listened to the Stonehenge tour guide, asked him questions, and seemed sincerely interested in what the guide had to say. I felt so sad that he has to grow up in a family and culture where intellectual curiosity is regarded as suspicious and immediately squashed.

Wow, that is really sad.

[doggie]

I remember after the premiere of the episode where they went to England, someone on the FB page wrote this really awful post about how, in his opinion, Josiah was less of a man because he listened to the Stonehenge tour guide, asked him questions, and seemed sincerely interested in what the guide had to say. I felt so sad that he has to grow up in a family and culture where intellectual curiosity is regarded as suspicious and immediately squashed.

that has been the whole dugger education philosophy the whole time. never question and always take what your told as fact. cult like for sure.

[gustava]

:lol:

And proofread: it's does not equal its :angry-banghead:

[gustava]

That will never happen. J'Chelle will believe God will open her womb at will, and I'm still pretty convinced Boob is a horndog.

God opens and Boob sticks in his dick?

[lizziesmom]

I doubt that Josiah would enjoy being there or would have volunteered to go. If this was his choice, then fine.

You know if you've followed this family very long that the only choices they get are what Mom and Dad want.

[Dandruff]

You know if you've followed this family very long that the only choices they get are what Mom and Dad want.

Yeah, I know. Perhaps "choice" wasn't the best word...I hope he was willing or at least not desperately against going...but I doubt it.