Vision Forum Now Closing, Doug Phillips Still a Tool-Part 2

[Cleopatra7]

I do really wonder if it's his own daughter or daughters after reading that post and the fact that the name of the victim hasn't leaked out and there was no apology to the victim or victim's family (correct?). Definitely a younger person involved here. This makes me so utterly sick and mad!

I've been involved with home schoolers for a long time and so many of them idolized Doug's ideas. There are still so many I know that keep their daughter's at home, don't give them a choice to pursue their own interests, make them feel like this is God's only way. I hope this is a wake up call to many to evaluate the garbage they are believing.

Yes. I bet if it was a grown person, whether in or out of VF, their identity would have leaked out somehow. The father or husband of the woman might have talked just to be vindictive, especially given how vicious these inter-Calvinist church politics appear to be. If it's someone in the family, it can be easily swept under the rug and the victim silenced, perhaps with the threat that the children will be sent off to evil, heathen foster homes if she goes to the police.

[Mary C Doates]

I feel really, really uncomfortable about the speculation about who the woman is/women are. Even if the things being insinuated prove to be untrue, the idea is still out there and, well, the Internet is forever. I would hate to think someone's reputation might be forever (and baselessly) be besmirched by innuendo.

Maybe it would be more appropriate not to feed into this kind of rumour. Just sayin'.

[DarkAnts]

Vision forum dose encourage emotional incest between daughter and father. I think that Doug Phillips is a tool is at least guilty of that.

DMsEcFn8DK8

[FiddleDD]

I think that the patriarchal, closed in families is the perfect place for any kind of abuse: incest, pedophiliia, mental and physical abuse of women and children and torturing animals if that's their thing.

I saw an interview with a former Jehova's witness and he called the church a "Pedophile's Paradise" because it's so closed in and they won't report any abuse to the authorities but deal with it in church and forgive the abuser and, if necessary, expell the abused.

There is abuse and pedophilia in nearly every society, religion, ect. Perverts and abusers will use whatever culture or religion they are in to control the person they are abusing. Yes, closed in families are more susceptible. I'm sure mistakes have been made, but Jehovah's Witnesses at least speak out against child abuse, even incest. (wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102007363) Unlike the ATI/VF community that pretend it never happens or exists, and refuse therapy.

If what Doug Phillips (every time I try to type 'doug' for some reason i type 'dough' first and have to fix it... :lol: ) did involves children, especially his own, I hope he fries.

[fullmetalheart]

Vision forum dose encourage emotional incest between daughter and father. I think that Doug Phillips is a tool is at least guilty of that.

DMsEcFn8DK8

That's Ron Hamilton/the Pirate the visited the Bates family that wrote that song. Uuuuugh. Some of the songs are actually decent from a theological mindset, but that's seven levels of fucked up.

[mnwnwmwmn]

Wow. I really pray this isn't what they're inferring. It only leaves two options....incest, or rape of the nanny. Don't forget that she lived under his roof as well. It kind of makes sense, in a sick way. He's always been critical of "worldly women", and there are so few who would be "pure" enough to meet his standards that he had to prey on his own household. God, I really hope they're wrong.

Slightly off topic, I wonder why the BCA website keeps getting brought up as if it is relevant in this situation. It was only ever created to host the church's rebuttal against Epstein, and was never updated from that point on. I'm sure most of the congregation had long forgotten that it ever existed. So, the fact that it took so long to remove Doug's name really has little to no significance whatsoever, IMHO.

ETA: The timing on all of this is interesting. Notice how everything went to hell in a handbasket after the death of his father. The potential influence of Howard Phillips on VF can't be underestimated.

[Clementine]

There is abuse and pedophilia in nearly every society, religion, ect. Perverts and abusers will use whatever culture or religion they are in to control the person they are abusing. Yes, closed in families are more susceptible. I'm sure mistakes have been made, but Jehovah's Witnesses at least speak out against child abuse, even incest. (wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102007363) Unlike the ATI/VF community that pretend it never happens or exists, and refuse therapy.

If what Doug Phillips (every time I try to type 'doug' for some reason i type 'dough' first and have to fix it... :lol: ) did involves children, especially his own, I hope he fries.

Maybe that's what they say publically, but I know that this is not necessarily how they deal with it when it happens.

[formergothardite]

That's Ron Hamilton/the Pirate the visited the Bates family that wrote that song. Uuuuugh. Some of the songs are actually decent from a theological mindset, but that's seven levels of fucked up.

Does VF even sell Patch the Pirate? Patch has been around since the early 80's and a lot of ATI families love him.

[DomWackTroll]

I feel really, really uncomfortable about the speculation about who the woman is/women are. Even if the things being insinuated prove to be untrue, the idea is still out there and, well, the Internet is forever. I would hate to think someone's reputation might be forever (and baselessly) be besmirched by innuendo.

Maybe it would be more appropriate not to feed into this kind of rumour. Just sayin'.

I totally understand what you are saying, but if the worst is true, would it ever be okay to talk about it? The vast majority of people in this country have no idea who these children are, and never will. But we've "known" them for years and years, and have seen every strange, questionable, and suspicious thing that has happened in their family and in their community. How can we put the horse back in the barn at this point? How can we forget the things we discovered long before this scandal broke? How can we talk honestly about Doug without involving his family members, when his entire empire was built around them?

Even if it's "just the nanny," these kids are living in hell right now. And there's no one to blame but their father.

[fullmetalheart]

Does VF even sell Patch the Pirate? Patch has been around since the early 80's and a lot of ATI families love him.

No, they don't. I know he's been around awhile - I think he's just popular in fundie circles in general due to being with Majesty Music.

[kpmom]

Oh god, please do not let what the Wartburg ladies are implying be true. I think I might be sick.

It's possible the commenter, Dee, was implying the woman in question was a nanny, which has been a rumor since Doug stepped down.

The young women who work (volunteer?) as nannies are considered SAHDs who do not go to college.

I'm hoping, at least, that's what she's implying, and not something even worse.

[Clementine]

I totally understand what you are saying, but if the worst is true, would it ever be okay to talk about it? The vast majority of people in this country have no idea who these children are, and never will. But we've "known" them for years and years, and have seen every strange, questionable, and suspicious thing that has happened in their family and in their community. How can we put the horse back in the barn at this point? How can we forget the things we discovered long before this scandal broke? How can we talk honestly about Doug without involving his family members, when his entire empire was built around them?

Even if it's "just the nanny," these kids are living in hell right now. And there's no one to blame but their father.

Exactly. And Doug couldn't even have dominion over his own desires. Or tool. But not in the Biblical sense.

[formergothardite]

The way I took that comment was it was a college age SAHD who was supposed to be safer at home but instead ended up being preyed on and taken advantage of by Doug. My opinion is that the church found out about the affair nine months ago, Doug stepped down and everyone worked to try and cover it up and make it go away. But then something else has come out and whatever the serious sins are, that they cannot cover it up or make it go away. They are just going to try and delay the revealing of these sins for as long as possible. Maybe through the Christmas season so that VFI can at least make some money before they have to close.

I hope it isn't one of his children or a minor.

[slickcat79]

Based on this quote from wartburg, I'm not sure if we should suspect inappropriate behavior between Doug and his own daughters (beyond the squicky emotional incest):

Let me put it this way. If it gets out, it will throw some doubt on the statement that women should stay at home where they will be safe as opposed to going to college.

From what I read on the old board, the oldest daughter Liberty might be 18 (at the oldest) right now. After all, oldest child Joshua just turned 20 this year and he and Justice are both older than any of the girls. If this "relationship" has been going on for quite awhile, I wouldn't consider any of Doug's daughters old enough to have been at college rather than in their father's house.

If the ww information is true, the implications are still bad. But I really hope it's not that close to home :(

[hoipolloi]

The whole SAHD thing is sick but add to it the insistence on "first time obedience" that these assholes insist on (including the Pearls, Scott & Deborah Brown, Voddie Baucham, and all the other fundie fuckwads), what chance does a minor (especially female) have in an abuse situation?

[MamaJunebug]

Well, there goes my day...

Scott Brown is a piece of work, I've got to say. He's on the board of directors of VF, for crying out loud. He's known all along that the primary motivation for VF to exist was to provide a platform for Doug Phillips to go hunting for anacondas and to play dress-ups. He's had ample opportunity to change the way things were operating, or to step down if he didn't like the way things were done and even if his directorship was a figure-head role, Doug's showboating and pageantry were no secret to anyone. He was quite happy to have his name associated with VF for years, it's only when the shit hits the fan that he feels the need to preach against his male, epicurean 'friend'?

Fundie's (especially the Calvinist ones) are renowned for some pretty nasty church politics and finding offense at the most minor points of difference, but this is just out-and-out backstabbing. Doug Phillips may be a tool, but Scott Brown is a snake in the grass. Re-reading the Eph 511 blog, I shouldn't be surprised. I think he's positioning himself and his organisation to fill the void that the collapse of VFM will bring.

QFT, and w/r/t the bolded, look at the upside: We'll be able to keep lots closer tabs on BRADRICK and Kelly and all the little 'dricks!!! You *know* Scott will have to have a plethora of patriarchal examples from his own family to tout the goodness of the lifestyle!

(Now back to the page from which this was quoted, to be sure I'm not missing any links to more info about this developing story!)

[MamaJunebug]

Holy moly.....Maybe he really did Schaap himself. I keep seeing the affair's duration reported as approximately six years. If that's the case, the other party could easily have been under age at the start of it all. Maybe that's why they haven't drug her out for a public shaming. It would only make things worse for Doug. I bet Scott is loving this. He'll be King over whatever remains.

mnwnwmwmn, I *knew* I'd seen the "six years" quoted before but had trouble finding it. Can you provide any links? Major thanks in advance! (no rush, of course)

[MamaJunebug]

Minor miiiinor minor minor quibble: It's not a tricorn in that photo, it's more of a flop cap, http://www.darkknightarmoury.com/images ... S-FLOP.png

very popular in the medieval and renaissance times. Fetching, no?

Men and women wore 'em, hee-heh, hee-heh.....OK, back to reading, and apologies for the slight ancient-fashionista discourse...

I'm a sick, sad woman for wondering what Dougie is hiding behind that tricorn hat. I'll be convulsing in the prayer closet if you need me.

[mnwnwmwmn]

mnwnwmwmn, I *knew* I'd seen the "six years" quoted before but had trouble finding it. Can you provide any links? Major thanks in advance! (no rush, of course)

Oh gosh, I've been reading so many different sources that I can't even recall exactly where I read it first. I know I read it near the start of all of this mess, and it was stated as a cold hard fact, not speculation. I want to say it was froma comment on Jen's Gems,or someone on Spiritual Sounding Board. I'll go looking to find it, and update you once I find the source again.

[Sobeknofret]

Oh gosh, I've been reading so many different sources that I can't even recall exactly where I read it first. I know I read it near the start of all of this mess, and it was stated as a cold hard fact, not speculation. I want to say it was froma comment on Jen's Gems,or someone on Spiritual Sounding Board. I'll go looking to find it, and update you once I find the source again.

The first post where I saw the 6 year quote was on the Well-Trained Mind forum, where it was stated as fact by the poster. I do not know where this came from though, and would be interested to see if this is the case.

[mnwnwmwmn]

The first post where I saw the 6 year quote was on the Well-Trained Mind forum, where it was stated as fact by the poster. I do not know where this came from though, and would be interested to see if this is the case.

Yep, that's it. Post #68.

[Talitha Cumi]

Interesting comment posted on the Facebook page of homeschoolers anonymous regarding closing of ministry.

'I happen to know from an inside source that it was fact HIGHLY inappropriate. Doug can quibble all he wants over biblically "knowing" someone but that is a bunch of hog wash. It was scandalous and he will be lucky to escape jail. That's all I can say.'

S-C-A-N-D to the A to the L-O-U-S! Can't handle it, can't handle it, damn that Doug he's scandalous!

[mnwnwmwmn]

Sigh, I'm in the same boat as Twin2 right now. What will I do with my time once VF is history and Doug has been dragged out to stocks for his public whipping? I've been following this freak show for almost a decade now. They were my Gorillas in the Mist. :)

[fullmetalheart]

S-C-A-N-D to the A to the L-O-U-S! Can't handle it, can't handle it, damn that Doug he's scandalous!

This is actually starting to make my heart hurt and want to cry and/or throw up as the more pieces come out. Doug may be a cooperate tool, but no matter who it was - his daughter, the nanny, someone else, it's sounding like he hurt someone underage and now my rage flag is flying.

[Sister Mozz]

The wartburg ladies now say in the comments that posting "women" instead of "woman" was a typo. As far as they have been able to tell, there has only been one.