On the road again..... (Maxwells)

[Lillybee]

How could they "take away privileges????" - what privileges have they ever had?

Exactly, what I was thinking.

[ILoveJellybeans]

You lose the privelege of having three animal crackers for dessert on the next special occaision?

Seriously, thats the only thing I can think of. They already have less priveleges than most people who are in jail.

[VodouDoll]

They tell their kids "sweetly" that they are going to hell and never see loved ones again if they misbehave rather than beat them into submission. Probably the same result but I don't think we can lay physical abuse at the feet of the Maxwells.

Yes! I remember that corner. Teri said that when a kid misbehaved, she'd pull him or her into the prayer closet and sob over them, literally crying out to the Lord to forgive her child and spare them the torments and tortures of hell because of the horrifying and evil sin they've just committed of not taking turns or whatever. I imagine it scared the crap out of those kids, their mother crying like that, begging an unseen and implacable deity to spare them from torture because they wouldn't share their Legos. I would've found an experience like that incredibly traumatizing.

[sparkles]

Ah, so then both Steve AND Teri are into that sort of emotional manipulation. It can be very powerful and terrifying, especially seeing your parents cry (see: Steve and the "God Laid it on My Heart that Little League is Sinful" scenario). Couple that with keening and wailing how the little sinners will be going straight to hell and you've got a toxic mix. I was an adult the first time I saw my dad cry (after my grandfather and grandmother died within a week of one another) and the raw emotion of it shook me to my core. I can only imagine what a constant diet of intentional, manipulative emotional abuse did to the Maxwell children.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Yes! I remember that corner. Teri said that when a kid misbehaved, she'd pull him or her into the prayer closet and sob over them, literally crying out to the Lord to forgive her child and spare them the torments and tortures of hell because of the horrifying and evil sin they've just committed of not taking turns or whatever. I imagine it scared the crap out of those kids, their mother crying like that, begging an unseen and implacable deity to spare them from torture because they wouldn't share their Legos. I would've found an experience like that incredibly traumatizing.

That is evil :o

How manipulative and emotionally abusive is that. Emotional abuse can be as bad as physical abuse.

[Arete]

That is evil :o

How manipulative and emotionally abusive is that. Emotional abuse can be as bad as physical abuse.

There is A LOT of that kind of creepy, emotional manipulation practiced by both Steve and Teri on those kids that they proudly document in their Corners. Those monthly newsletters are incredibly disturbing, especially because you can definitely read how both the isolation and the crazy escalated as the years passed.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I COMPLETELY agree with you...however unfortunately this is not how it is for the Maxwells. I think that the grandparents "put up with them" because they do feel that they are getting something "good" out of it. Would it be much better to have a relationship with their daughter and not get the BS along with it? Absolutely! Is this an option for them? Not at all!

The grandparents just might be too old, too sick, and too tired for family confrontations. From what I've read on the Maxwells' blog, the grandfather is quite frail. Also, when the grandparents were younger and in a better position to intervene on behalf of the children, Steve and Teri were living in another state. They also weren't as crazy back then. The crazy has definitely escalated over the years.

[mystikchick17]

Thank you for taking one for the team, guys. That write up was sickening. The emotional abuse that has been perpetrated against each of those kids is so insidious and deep that I don't think they'll ever recognize what's been done to them, and that's a crime and a tragedy.

In looking back through the old "Corners" pieces, I came across one of Steve's earliest, on anger. I thought there might be something in these about physical punishment, so I started reading. Article number one from '99 (when the family apparently ate pancakes, eggs and bacon and ordered the odd pizza for dinner) features this gem:

We have worked hard to teach our children proper table etiquette, but that had become a real source of frustration and anger for me. This may sound stupid to you, but it is true. I had one child in particular that would not chew with his lips together and others that would either eat with their elbows on the table or not sit up nicely. I would remind them and remind them, and eventually I would get angry. You can imagine that did not make for pleasant meals. God is so gracious though. When we desire to please Him and if we cry out for wisdom, He is faithful in answering our prayers.

I asked the Lord to help me train them without getting angry. The idea came that if a child is demonstrating poor manners I will catch their attention and then raise my pointer finger indicating the first mark. If I see another problem, I will raise two fingers indicating two marks. If I see a third occurrence, they are excused from the meal. I have found this very freeing. I have a way of communicating the problem without getting angry and there are consequences that the children will work hard to avoid. Seldom has anyone had to be excused from the table, and I now have children who are striving to demonstrate proper manners. The best part of it is I don't get angry any longer over training the children at the table.

He has control issues over every single damn aspect of his life. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a heady mix of OCD and addiction going on somewhere in his life that he's struggling to keep tamped down.

ETA: Still looking for the crying over the kid, but talking to them about the terrible sins they've committed by not being obedient is definitely in the repertoire. From a Mom's Corner in October 2000:

My expectation for an encounter with one of my children was often this: I would sit with him and explain his sin, he would be filled with remorse, confess, repent, and then go off to “sin no more.†This is a mature Biblical response that might sometimes be found in my dealings with a child. But, the more common occurrence was as follows: I would sit with him and explain his sin, he would be filled with excuses and justification, and would respond negatively. Then he might do the same wrong thing, which he had just been disciplined for, the very next hour (or even minute)! However, the older the children became the more they were able to see their sin and deal with it properly. This spiritual maturity grew in relation to their advancing age and has been even greater upon becoming adults!

[Jana814]

Exactly, what I was thinking.

Same here!

[Brittany15]

I think I do remember Steve and Teri saying they did not "spank" but that parents have the right to if they show choose.

[twin2]

Really, Patsy? I wish we could find what they said on the subject, I've never read anything on hitting, for or against, from the Maxwells.

I always assumed they did hit their kids for several reasons; 1). They followed Ezzo once upon a time. 2). They were buddies of the Pearls back in the 90's. 3). They take the bible literally, so I imagine the spare the rod, spoil the child stuff, or however it's worded in the bible, would be the go ahead for hitting to people like them.

Also to remember in fundie land they don't concider "spanking", "hitting", even though the are (ahem Kendull). The only difference is that spanking defines a specific place to do the hitting.

[Palimpsest]

The Maxwell “Family Survey“

I didn’t hear back from a mod, so I decided to err on the side of caution and not transcribe the whole thing. I’ll hang onto for a few days and see if I can get a photo and then try to upload it, if people really want to see the whole thing. Please say you don’t! :? Direct quotes are in bold.

Thank you for coming! We would be very grateful if you would take a few minutes to answer the following questions. We desire to have a better understanding of your family, your needs, and how we can better serve you. When using a number rating on this survey 10 is best, 1 is poor. Please don’t answer any question that you would rather not. For longer answers, use the reverse side. Thank you.

Steve, Teri, Sarah, Joseph, John, Anna, Jesse and Mary

So far, so good. It’s been a long time since my research classes, but some things about the survey seem amateur. Any researchers on FJ want to comment? The description of the ratings seems odd.

Also, definitely an amateur mistake. There are 21 questions not 19 as I previously said. At the bottom of the page is an un-numbered request for my email. I assumed that was the end, but questions 20 and 21 are on the back. There is less than ½ a page to answer the open-ended questions on the back. There is not much space provided between any the questions either to write in.

Here goes, unless it is bolded I’ve altered his wording and shortened the questions:

Do you homeschool? Y N How long?

Give us examples of what you think the most pressing needs are of Christian families.

What are the most pressing needs of your home?

Ditto: Your life?

Do Mom/Dad use schedules? Y N

How would you rate the hearts of your children? Rate 10 – 1 He says to list a number for each child. One line left after this question for the response so mega families would have problems.

How many times a week do you have:

Family Bible time?

Dad’s/Mom’s personal Bible time?

How many hours a week do you watch TV? Movies?

Court not Date? Y N

What, if any, hindrances do you see to that desire?

How well does your family converse? (IE [sic] to sit down and enjoy talking as a family) Now he wants you to rate 1 - 10

Rate your satisfaction with your current path. 1 – 10

Familiarity with Titus 2, how much of our crap have you bought, is it helpful?

Now the next questions we’ve already answered in this thread.

17. Have you had any negative experiences with Titus 2 that you would share with us?

Have we ever disappointed you?

Positive experiences?

18. How can we better meet your needs?

19. Do you recommend Titus 2 to others? Yes or No

Why?

no number: Give us your email, optional.

Next page:

20. What websites do you go to for support and encouragement? What do you like about the sites?

If I’d have handed it in, that would have been the opportunity to say: Free Jinger. Because it is not a hive vagina!

21. Similar questions about the small business round table.

The End.

He’s a nosy sod, isn’t he? Why would I want to answer most of those questions? There is a whiff of Scientology about it too. He is going to use those answers to berate and exhort you.

He’s also not interested in an evaluation of his awesome conference.

I pine to do a competent independent Pre, Post, and Post Post survey of his conference attendees to see how effective he is and how many of his sheep go home and really stick with getting rid of their TVs. And how many little boys woke up screaming from nightmares on Saturday night.

[twin2]

How would you rate the hearts of your children? Rate 10 – 1

Sweet baby jesus that is effed up.

New quiz: How do you rate Steve's heart?

[thoughtful]

How would you rate the hearts of your children? Rate 10 – 1

Oh, for fuck's sake. Heart-rating on a scale of 1-10 (oh, excuse me -- 10-1 -- what, are we counting down to blast-off?)? :angry-banghead:

Of course, everything from American Bandstand to restaurant/movie/wine reviews are now popping into my head.

"I'd give little Penelope FaithinJesus' heart an 85 -- it has a good beat and you can dance to it."

"My son Ferdinand GiveshisalltotheLord's heart is a bit chewy, but has a wonderful smoky flavor."

"Yahwehsfavorite Herman, our toddler, has a heart that races to an exciting climax, that should get attention at Oscar time."

"Little Ebenezer Whythefuckdowehavesomanykids has a heart with a bit of a bite, but a lovely bouquet, and a piquant aftertaste. A great after-dinner heart."

[Jezebel]

I seem to recall that one of the reversal boys (John?) was stubborn and strong-willed as a kid, and Steve essentially admitted he'd resorted to beating him in order to break him. I only remember this at all because at one point I commented, "Well, at least they don't beat their kids; they're not brutal like the Pearls," but finding out about that proved me wrong.

Terminology can make all the difference, here. Saying, "We don't hit our kids," on the surface, sounds like, "We never have used corporal punishment." But honestly, it doesn't rule out, "We used to hit our kids in the past, but no longer need to because they've been completely broken." It doesn't rule out, "We never had to hit the girls, because Mommy getting into the closet with them and sobbing and praying that they wouldn't go to hell for being bad terrified them into submission, but we had to get tough with the boys, if you know what I mean." It also doesn't rule out "physical discipline" as opposed to mere "hitting"; I've known people whose parents beat them as kids over minor infractions, but the parents didn't consider what they were doing "beating" because they felt there was a purpose behind it, and that it was just "solid discipline," or "training," or some other such euphemism.

That they used to associate with the Pearls, and have recommended Ezzo's books, and don't have a problem with other people beating their own kids tells me that yeah, they did hit their kids at one time. If their parenting methods had truly made it possible to raise perfect little robots in their own images without ever resorting to physical punishment, you would think they would discourage child-beating--but they don't.

And I don't believe they are above lying about it, either. Steve is fundamentally dishonest--he's the guy who edits other people's comments to his blog in order to change their meanings into something less contentious or more laudatory than the poster intended. He prunes out criticism and disagreement, no matter how mild or politely expressed. That is a serious sign of dishonesty, IMO; I see Steve Maxwell as a shameless liar for that. Thus, I'm going to question the things he (and his accomplice, Terri) say about themselves, and what a wonderful, happy family they have, and how they managed to completely subjugate those kids and break their wills without resorting to physical violence.

[thoughtful]

And I don't believe they are above lying about it, either. Steve is fundamentally dishonest--he's the guy who edits other people's comments to his blo in order to change their meanings into something less contentious or more laudatory than the poster intended. He prunes out criticism and disagreement, no matter how mild or politely expressed. That is a serious sign of dishonesty, IMO; I see Steve Maxwell as a shameless liar for that. Thus, I'm going to question the things he (and his accomplice, Terri) say about themselves, and what a wonderful, happy family they have, and how they managed to completely subjugate those kids and break their wills without resorting to physical violence.

This.

I did a search on the blog today, for any term I could think of, from the blatant to the most euphemistic, and found nothing I could pin down.

Then I thought "Why am I doing this? It's not like Steve would be honest about it."

[Palimpsest]

The Maxwells love the word "desire."

I desire to hold up my middle finger to Steve. And I'm not teaching him table manners.

[WonderingInWA]

The Maxwell's love the word "desire."

I desire to hold up my middle finger to Steve. And I'm not teaching table manners.

You and your heathen table manners! J/K. Me, too. Honestly, those kids came to fear family mealtime. Sure, they have impeccable table manners now but at what price? I know someone else on another thread suggested that Stevie probably also does the loading of plates with food as another control mechanism around the table. It's no wonder none of them have a weight problem. Give them less, always make them want for more -- that's classic controlling behavior.

[Palimpsest]

You and your heathen table manners! J/K. Me, too. Honestly, those kids came to fear family mealtime. Sure, they have impeccable table manners now but at what price? I know someone else on another thread suggested that Stevie probably also does the loading of plates with food as another control mechanism around the table. It's no wonder none of them have a weight problem. Give them less, always make them want for more -- that's classic controlling behavior.

You quoted me before I could correct my riffles. :lol:

If any of those kids ever escape they are going to be very vulnerable to eating disorders. They'll stuff themselves worse than Josh Duggar. And I'm not into fat-shaming, but Josh looks like he's gained back a lot of weight in the new baby pictures.

[Hane]

Respond negatively=hit.

[Jezebel]

Thank you for posting this, Palimpsest!

The Maxwell “Family Survey“

Thank you for coming! We would be very grateful if you would take a few minutes to answer the following questions. We desire to have a better understanding of your family, your needs, and how we can better serve you. When using a number rating on this survey 10 is best, 1 is poor. Please don’t answer any question that you would rather not. For longer answers, use the reverse side. Thank you.

Steve, Teri, Sarah, Joseph, John, Anna, Jesse and Mary

So far, so good. It’s been a long time since my research classes, but some things about the survey seem amateur. Any researchers on FJ want to comment? The description of the ratings seems odd.

To me it just seems odd because so much of the Maxwell family's writings are odd. I am going to venture a guess that Teri wrote this, as it's too friendly in tone for Steve to have done so, and, despite the awkward phrasings ("We desire to have an understanding..."), too well-written (and lively) to be Sarah's work.

That said, 21 questions on a survey like this is ridiculous. Doubly so, when they are asking for more than simple Y/N or 1-10 ratings on more than one of them. Trebly so when they don't provide enough space to give full answers to written questions. They would get better information by using a very short survey to get feedback about that day's presentation. Then, at the bottom, include space for an email address. Sending follow-up emails with further survey questions respondents can answer at leisure will garner fewer responses, but they will be better-quality, more useful responses.

Do you homeschool? Y N How long?

They don't ask how many kids, what age range, or what kind of curriculum? If I was selling guidebooks for homeschoolers, I'd want to know these things.

Give us examples of what you think the most pressing needs are of Christian families.

What are the most pressing needs of your home?

Ditto: Your life?

The first question could probably be answered off the top of one's head. But the other two are much more personal questions, requiring some thought (and some space to write). They are likely to go unanswered because of this (and probably do).

Do Mom/Dad use schedules? Y N

If I was selling scheduling tools, and got a No answer, I'd want to know why. Odd that they don't ask.

How would you rate the hearts of your children? Rate 10 – 1 He says to list a number for each child. One line left after this question for the response so mega families would have problems.

On the surface, this isn't a very useful question, unless they plan to do a lot of one-on-one follow-up with parents who give their kids low scores.

But maybe they don't really want an answer. Maybe that question is there to goad the parents into assigning a value to how obedient and perfect their kids are, especially in light of what they've heard about "children's hearts" from the Maxwells. Parents who may have been thinking, "My kids are great!" before the conference might not feel so positive after listening to the Maxwells' ideas. And here, assigning a number-value to each of their kids, they might start to see their previously-good kids as lacking, and their own parenting inadequate. As a marketing-research question, it's crap. But as a prod to make insecure parents feel worse, it's got a certain evil brilliance.

How many times a week do you have:

Family Bible time?

Dad’s/Mom’s personal Bible time?

How many hours a week do you watch TV? Movies?

Again, these questions aren't terribly useful if you're trying to figure out new resources to offer, or better ways to sell your products. But by the time someone is filling this survey out, they will know exactly what the "right" answers are.

Court not Date? Y N

What, if any, hindrances do you see to that desire?

You know, the funny thing is that if they'd have Q&A sessions, or run actual discussions instead of lectures, they would have plenty of examples of the "hindrances" that courtship advocates encounter. But since their entire MO is to dispense wisdom from on high (and on schedule), rather than receive insights from other people--forget it. And since they don't offer enough space to answer the question adequately, they aren't going to receive much insight.

How well does your family converse? (IE [sic] to sit down and enjoy talking as a family) Now he wants you to rate 1 - 10

Rate your satisfaction with your current path. 1 – 10

More questions that invite the respondent to consider what an inadequate job they are doing.

Familiarity with Titus 2, how much of our crap have you bought, is it helpful?

17. Have you had any negative experiences with Titus 2 that you would share with us?

Have we ever disappointed you?

Positive experiences?

18. How can we better meet your needs?

19. Do you recommend Titus 2 to others? Yes or No

Why?

These? These are the exact kinds of questions that belong on this survey. These, and "Has this conference been useful to you? What was most helpful? What could we have done or discussed to help you better?"

no number: Give us your email, optional.

Just asking for email addresses is less effective than inviting people to receive your newsletter, announcements of future conferences, special offers on their products, first peeks at and chances to buy new materials. Offer them goodies they can use. Then you can send out a survey to new subscribers, which they can answer at their leisure.

He’s a nosy sod, isn’t he? Why would I want to answer most of those questions? There is a whiff of Scientology about it too. He is going to use those answers to berate and exhort you.

Agreed. Some of those questions are a waste of space--except for making the respondent aware of their inadequacies when compared to the perfect, godly Maxwells.

He’s also not interested in an evaluation of his awesome conference.

Yeah, that really stood out. But when you let people comment on problems with your message or the way you run things, they will expect you to take their advice--and get annoyed and stop coming back if you don't. By not giving them space to offer criticisms in the first place, you're off the hook as far as changing anything. Your audience may wish you'd do or say differently, but since they haven't had a chance to tell you that, they'll let it slide.

And as far as Steve is concerned, he's doing everything just right. If his audience was doing so great, why would they need to come hear his message and be told what to do? He's the authority; who are they to criticize?

[twin2]

The more I think about that survey, it sounds more like a survey to collect data on all the how many more people need to be brought into the light as a talking point for next year's conferences, rather than a way to improve their workshop/materials.

[ILoveJellybeans]

How would you rate the hearts of your children? Rate 10 – 1

Rate your children????

What do they expect someone to say "Our children are great, except for Mary, I think she might be evil"

[twin2]

Rate your children????

What do they expect someone to say "Our children are great, except for Mary, I think she might be evil"

I wonder which Maxwell child has the lowest rated heart.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Poor Sarah :( Her heart is probably anything but happy because she is over 30 and still treated like an untrustworthy 12 year old.