On the road again..... (Maxwells)

[LucySnowe]

Echoing the thanks to Palimpest and Mr P - especially good to have a glimpse behind the Man Curtain.

[Phyllis Styne]

It is a bit nebulous, but Teri's talk is very empathetic. Sympathetic. Very supportive of overwhelmed Moms struggling with home schooling many kids, cooking, keeping up with the housework to Daddy's exacting standards, and all that. The Moms at her talk were supposed to come away with tools to help them. Encouraged, empowered and supported. And I think they did.

A lot of the squeaky stuff was her crying out to the Lord about feeling overwhelmed at the needs of her 8, count them, 8 children. (Why am I suddenly getting a Kate Gosselin flashback?)

She is very clear that this job is hard. How do you deal with all those children and also keep up the house, all on a small budget? I wouldn't want to!

Palimpsest, thank you for providing the answer to the question I've been pondering (not continuously, of course) since I visited the opening session of the Maxwell show a while back.

The question was, "what did that one tearful lady and her solemnly nodding friend mean when she said of the family, 'They are the real deal. They don't judge you!'"

That lady was wearing a bedazzled pantsuit that reminded me of the late 1980s -- which would probably be the last nice suit she bought for going out before she became a SAHM. And she was with another lady who also seemed to be in her 40s, both had huge wedding ring sets on but neither had children with them, also no headships at least at the book table with them. I imagine the lady had been overwhelmed with her homeschooling responsibilities and distressed by the perfection of the perfect "mentors" she turned to. And then she reads or attends a conference where textbooks are ok and the mom of 8 (8!!!!!) says its okay to feel less than perfect and zing! - a grateful fan forever.

Whoever said they perceived that Teri could rip a person a new one (phraseology mine), I got the very same impression. And I saw it borne out in the way Sarah told her sisters to hop to it when Anna and Mary were dawdling in the lobby before curtain time. And concert infiltrator-FJ'er, yes, I recall Sarah upstage and holding an instrument she wasn't playing. What?!?111???!!!

I'm wondering if it would be possible either to add the several stories of FJers' visits to conferences to the Maxwell SOTDRT topic? Or maybe start a new repository-topic where the firsthand accounts could be assembled all together.

It would give an interesting survey of the Maxborg's increasing responses to the knowledge of invaders in their midst as well as an anthology of first-hand interactions with the phenomenon.

Thank you again to the P's and to the first-nite attender for this one.

[treemom]

Thanks. The Charles Manson analogy is good. I've been in the same room with someone of a similar ilk, I'd rather not say whom because it might blow my anonymity here.

Steve Maxwell definitely gives off a similar vibe. IMO. Creepy. Might manipulate or incite others to violence but would probably not indulge in it himself.

But, really. How can we help the Maxwell "children?" My gut feeling is that Teri is almost too far gone to help much.

The whole family is so programmed and controlled. Were Steve suddenly to be incapacitated or kick the proverbial bucket (no Steve, I'm not ill-wishing you, just being practical, you are around my age) I think the whole family system would simply collapse. I don't think any one of them has the ability to make a decision on their own.

Or do the two oldest boys have some autonomy these days? I don't get that impression from the Titus 2 blog, but hope springs eternal.

I have no idea what help would even look like...but I really wish I could do SOMETHING. It felt good telling off steve, and I am glad a little bit his kids got to see someone stand up to him. But I doubt it did anything real.

What is interesting is the whole registration bit. While the church they went to here (google Germantown Baptist...it wasn't a good fit for them. It is a local mega church that is mostly focused on conspicuous consumption. and while Baptist, isn't the Baptist most people think of, although it is still I think a bad religion) anyhow, that church suggested registration, but it wasn't required. We wandered in, were invited in to see the Maxwells. And then I wandered down after the session to tell Steve my mind.

There were no name badges or any of that.

[nokidsmom]

Totally.

So basically she is saying, look it's a shit deal really but here is how to make it less intolerable. That is so incredibly sad and depressing.

I wonder if some small part of her ever questions if sacrificing all of her own needs, ambitions and desires and those of her daughters will indeed be worth this 'marvellous' afterlife.

They remind me exactly of those who sacrifice themselves with bombs in the name of some belief which promises some equally fantastical glory. Just less violent. I am sure Steve would deride their beliefs as misplaced, whilst never understanding that to me his are no better :(

So the men are browbeaten and little boys scared in one session and the women are advised "how to suffer better" in their session. What a great deal (not!). That is just unbelievably depressing and to me, it shows how incredibly awful life must in Maxhell. It's even worse than I thought. Liz Munck did really escape an awful fate. While I agree that maybe Joe had hopes for a better life in marrying her, I am not sure that would have come to pass. Liz would have been expected to assimilate into the Borg along with other daughters in law and Steve would still rule over all.

I can also see how Teri would be someone that you wouldn't want to cross but I suspect it may be due to a lot of pent up frustration and misery.

[Hane]

One day, sometime, somewhere, please introduce that character to Steve. Please, please, please!

Not just one character, but several: I'm in the chorus of a community theater production of "The Producers." Maybe I should have put a flyer for the show under Uriah's windshield wiper. There isn't a single character in the play that Stevehovah would approve of! He'd blow a lobe, and then Terified and the clan would be set free! :cracking-up:

[nokidsmom]

I have no idea what help would even look like...but I really wish I could do SOMETHING. It felt good telling off steve, and I am glad a little bit his kids got to see someone stand up to him. But I doubt it did anything real.

What is interesting is the whole registration bit. While the church they went to here (google Germantown Baptist...it wasn't a good fit for them. It is a local mega church that is mostly focused on conspicuous consumption. and while Baptist, isn't the Baptist most people think of, although it is still I think a bad religion) anyhow, that church suggested registration, but it wasn't required. We wandered in, were invited in to see the Maxwells. And then I wandered down after the session to tell Steve my mind.

There were no name badges or any of that.

That is indeed interesting about the registration that was in place. Wonder if that is Steve's response to "infiltrations" or was just how that particular church handled it. It sounds like it would be Steve, though.

[Palimpsest]

Can we talk about Teri some more, because I've been pondering.

It is hard for me to discuss Teri without sounding as though I'm blaming the victim. And I try never to do that. But. I. did. not. like. Teri Maxwell. And nicknaming her Terrified doesn't seem right. Bear with me as I muddle my way through this.

What we know is that Teri was depressed and stressed to the extent that she literally could not function even with only three children. Contrary to Steve's beliefs, depression is an illness not a moral failing. Steve dealt with it in the only way his Fundie brain could manage. Instead of helping her to get treatment, he "supported" her by, taking control and easing her responsibilities as much as possible. Thus the Daddy tapes and help for her with home schooling. In Fundie circles, and in Teri's mind, Steve is probably a hero for doing all that women's work. It boggles the mind that he then went ahead with the vasectomy reversal and they had 5 more children. Way to reduce stress and depression, Steve and Teri.

So, I knew this background going in. I found it harder to see her as a victim after listening to her for an hour.

What I saw was a intelligent, polished and professional woman who seemed to be functioning just fine. It is hard to retain much sympathy for someone who was so efficiently doling out vats of Kool-Aid to the sheep. There was definitely a vulnerability about her, but even that seemed part of the performance and sales pitch.

It's OK, you don't have to educate me much about depression, I've struggled with it myself. And I don't need a whole lot of education about survivors of DV, brainwashing and Stockholm syndrome, etc. All that and more was running through my head, as part of me was also saying: Teri Maxwell you are a card carrying collaborator and an extremely effective contributing partner in your husband's snake oil business.

In that other post when I said I wouldn't want to cross her and I thought she would bite if provoked -- that sort of bubbled out of my subconscious. I looked at it on the screen and said to myself. Yes, that is true. It is interesting that someone else saw that tougher side to Teri too.

Yes, it could be suppressed anger and repression. Yes, Steve is an angry controlling bully, emotionally abusive and major asshole. But I don't think we should just label Teri a victim and let it go without further examination.

Unlike her children, Teri has the advantage of an education. She is not the only person to have struggled with depression. Nor is she the only person to have married an abusive personality. I'm very understanding of all the issues that make it hard for her to leave her situation. But.

I think it is patronizing to say, "Oh, poor little Teri" and absolve her from all responsibility yet again. I don't say that about Shirley Phelps-Roper, and arguably she was thoroughly brainwashed and abused too. The Maxwells are peddling some very ugly ideas. Teri is in it right up to her slender little neck.

Comments and thoughts? I'm still chewing this over in my mind.

[MamaJunebug]

Can we talk about Teri some more, because I've been pondering.

It is hard for me to discuss Teri without sounding as though I'm blaming the victim. And I try never to do that. But. I. did. not. like. Teri Maxwell. And nicknaming her Terrified doesn't seem right. Bear with me as I muddle my way through this.

What we know is that Teri was depressed and stressed to the extent that she literally could not function even with only three children. Contrary to Steve's beliefs, depression is an illness not a moral failing. Steve dealt with it in the only way his Fundie brain could manage. Instead of helping her to get treatment, he "supported" her by, taking control and easing her responsibilities as much as possible. Thus the Daddy tapes and help for her with home schooling. In Fundie circles, and in Teri's mind, Steve is probably a hero for doing all that women's work. It boggles the mind that he then went ahead with the vasectomy reversal and they had 5 more children. Way to reduce stress and depression, Steve and Teri.

So, I knew this background going in. I found it harder to see her as a victim after listening to her for an hour.

What I saw was a intelligent, polished and professional woman who seemed to be functioning just fine. It is hard to retain much sympathy for someone who was so efficiently doling out vats of Kool-Aid to the sheep. There was definitely a vulnerability about her, but even that seemed part of the performance and sales pitch.

It's OK, you don't have to educate me much about depression, I've struggled with it myself. And I don't need a whole lot of education about survivors of DV, brainwashing and Stockholm syndrome, etc. All that and more was running through my head, as part of me was also saying: Teri Maxwell you are a card carrying collaborator and an extremely effective contributing partner in your husband's snake oil business.

In that other post when I said I wouldn't want to cross her and I thought she would bite if provoked -- that sort of bubbled out of my subconscious. I looked at it on the screen and said to myself. Yes, that is true. It is interesting that someone else saw that tougher side to Teri too.

Yes, it could be suppressed anger and repression. Yes, Steve is an angry controlling bully, emotionally abusive and major asshole. But I don't think we should just label Teri a victim and let it go without further examination.

Unlike her children, Teri has the advantage of an education. She is not the only person to have struggled with depression. Nor is she the only person to have married an abusive personality. I'm very understanding of all the issues that make it hard for her to leave her situation. But.

I think it is patronizing to say, "Oh, poor little Teri" and absolve her from all responsibility yet again. I don't say that about Shirley Phelps-Roper, and arguably she was thoroughly brainwashed and abused too. The Maxwells are peddling some very ugly ideas. Teri is in it right up to her slender little neck.

Comments and thoughts? I'm still chewing this over in my mind.

I coined the name "Terified" and I entirely support the idea of retiring it and supplanting it with "Terifying." Because she does terrify me -- that someone with her mental ability (she was in a university-level chemistry class when she met Stevehovah) and the depression (which I also share) could turn herself into a willing co-conspirator and executrix of Steve's warped intentions.

I remember being surprised as heck when one FJ visitor wrote that Terifying's voice was firm and not at all soprano nor babyish. I'd really expected her to talk in that baby-sweet MIchelle Duggar tone. But if indeed she presents herself as polished, professional and of course entirely submissive, then she is as coldly calculating as any dictator's paramour.

FWIW I also doubt Joseph saw the Munck girl as a ticket out. If anything, he probably saw the light in her eyes and institinctually knew it would mean some pretty good times in bed; but beyond that, his mission was to impregnate and assimilate, and that's all of it. JMHO.

[sparkles]

First, Palimpsest, many thanks to you and Mr. P for taking one for the team and for your very detailed and insightful reporting. It sounds...disturbing at the least. I really wanted to go the Connecticut conference with Hane but double scheduling did me in.

I do think Teri is a victim, but like some victims of child abuse, it seems as that she's now become the oppressor. Her situation also reminds me of how hazing keeps getting passed down the line or how nothing is done to stop medical residents from working 48-hour shifts without a break. "Well, if *I* had to go through it, why shouldn't everyone else?" And the cycle of abusive behavior continues. So you're right that Teri is now Steve's collaborator.

On the other hand though, he got to her at her most vulnerable, broke her down and remade her in his image. That she is who she is now is because of Steve. She's his victim, of brainwashing, of abuse, of constant pressure and being told that if she doesn't toe the line, she'll burn in hell for all eternity. So from that perspective, is she really to blame? In this regard, I see her as kind of a Christian Patty Hearst, only it doesn't seem like there will ever be a pardon for Teri (Tonya Maxwell?), should she ever be freed from her own personal hell on earth.

I really can't decide how I feel about her, except that I know she and all of other non-Steve Maxwells make me very sad. Who know what they could have become?

[nokidsmom]

Interesting about Teri and I have wondered about her too. She is educated as is Steve and should have the ability to discern that what they are peddling is not healthy or good, but for whatever reason(s) (depression? fear? obligation?) jumped down the rabbit hole along with Steve and believes it all. I suspect it was a survival tactic, it's become normal to her, but it doesn't change the fact that she's a willing participant in this ugly stuff.

I guess I am saying is that I can understand why she is doing this but it's not an excuse or makes it okay. Hope that makes sense.

[kpmom]

Palimpsest, you make some good points about Teri. Some of us here give her a bit of a pass, but I'm not sure she deserves it.

Steve couldn't do what he does without Teri's approval. As you point out, she has a college education. She also has a support network of her parents and her sister.

Like you said, Steve looks like a hero by trying to make her life easier, but, let's face it, if it appears Teri is unhappy or depressed, there goes their business. After all, the MOTH schedule is partially credited with pulling her out of her depression. In some ways, her depression led to several of their money making ventures.

I've read Steve's corner about reversing his vasectomy a number of times, but nowhere have I read Teri's reaction to this decision. Did she have a say in it? I certainly hope so, but I've never read anything she's said on the matter. Where was Teri in her depression journey when this decision was made? I've never been 100% sure.

[Palimpsest]

Ah, thanks everyone!

You have all helped to clarify my muddled thoughts. Sorry not to give a more detailed response right now but I have work emails building up that need attention soon.

It is absolutely possible to be both a victim and an oppressor. That is what we are looking at in Teri.

I still don't want to give Teri a complete pass. There is also a difference between assigning blame and accepting partial responsibility. I think Teri bears some responsibility for her active participation and collaboration in the Maxwell marketing scheme today. I absolutely agree that Steve took advantage of her at a vulnerable time, but I have never had much patience with oppressors who want to dodge responsibility by claiming to have been "just following orders."

There is something calculated about Teri's presentation that I'll talk about more later. I also need to clarify the Joseph crying over teenagers point. I need to dig out my notes to remind myself of the exact Fundie-speak Teri used.

Got to go, back later. It will look like I'm on line because I'll leave this window open, but duty calls. :D

[Palimpsest]

A bit more on Teri’s session and Joseph.

Skip the next two paragraphs if you like. I can get wordy. They are just about the skill set I brought to the conference.

I used to be terrified of public speaking. The student who threw up before each and every presentation in University – that was me. Then I got a job that required a lot of public speaking and training. I loved other aspects of the job so I needed to fix the public speaking problem. I took classes, I rehearsed, I studied manuals and I analyzed not just the content but the techniques used in every single presentation I attended. I worked my butt off.

I learned how to appear relaxed and, how to use different anecdotes and illustrations depending on my audience, how to be flexible if something wasn’t working and kick it up a notch if necessary. I got better with experience. I can also take questions from the floor without missing a beat and still cover the materials. I encourage people to participate by raising their hands. “Please don’t be shy. The worst thing that can happen is that I’ll ask you to wait a few minutes until I get to that part. My answer will make more sense there.†It stops the audience from dozing off. I can also deal with hecklers. I’m good at it now.

So analyzing both the content and presentation techniques used in Teri’s session was automatic.

She’s pretty good. No, very good. Very practiced and smooth. But my impression was that there is no room for flexibility in that speech at all. If she hadn’t hit the “ceiling fan joke†at precisely 9:27 a.m. (just a guess) she’d probably have felt panicked. A question from the floor would have thrown her for a loop. The presentation also felt stale. I think it has been the same for ages, and I suspect she just updates with one new picture of a grand baby and one new rehearsed and timed “spontaneous†anecdote every year.

Every single chatty little family anecdote was carefully chosen to illustrate a specific aspect of the Gospel of Steve. There is no wasted time. Example: the apparent dissing of the boys about untidiness and slowness was deliberate. I think that we can safely assume that in most of their targeted audiences the girls clean up after the boys. Let’s build up the girls’ confidence by telling them they are much better than boys at cleaning and let’s make the boys’ mess seem cute.

The anecdotes were also just too perfect. I smelled a bit of creative license there. Meh, we all do it. Steve and Teri would deny lying, but I’m sure they are very comfortable with embroidering the truth.

So the anecdote where Joseph gets on the bus practically crying after his “Who is Jesus†session.

This is probably closer to Teri’s actual words. It is not verbatim. “He is there with the 8 and 9 year olds and they are just drinking in the Lord’s Word. But sometimes he gets on the bus after a session with the teens and he is almost crying. They have no desire for spiritual things. They are playing with their phones and talking to each other.†Then she went on about the need to shelter the kids from evil outside influences.

I was a model and attentive conference goer up to this point, but this made me suppress a very unladylike snort. My bull shit meter went right through the roof. It was effective with most of the audience though. There was a little rustle and I’d swear a few were suppressing their own tears at the thought of darling Joseph upset and teenagers acting like, well, normal teenagers.

My guess: Joseph gets on the bus and tells Steve that he had an unresponsive group. They have a strategy session and a vent together. Then Steve helps him to hone his presentation. No tears. Steve is training those boys in manipulation techniques.

If Joseph is the one with the eyes and the dimples, my guess is that some of the girls are whispering to each other about his cuteness as their hormones go wild. Perhaps some of the boys are too. The other boys are probably wishing they were anywhere else but a Maxwell conference, but think that Anna and Mary are pretty cute too. Pity those two are upstairs out of harm’s way and they are stuck with Sarah to look at. Not that Sarah isn’t attractive, but she probably seems a bit old to them.

[browngrl]

The whole Maxwell family (IMO) is enmeshed in a toxic miasma of fundism, patriarchy, control, depression and fear.The only way the "children"and Terri survived is by bonding closely to Steve - a fundy Stockholm syndrome. I think that they have lived with this particularly reality so long that their father's/husband's fears and obsessions have become their own. That family always reminds me of the Borg from Star Trek - they really have become one entity. I think that this is most true for Terri and Sarah but I have doubts that any of them could survive on their own. I'm not surprised that Terri came across the way she did to Palimpset nor I am surprised by the daughter who made a heart sign and said "but I love my daddy" when confronted by another FJ'er (last year). We see the children or Terri but that is just a cover - really they are now just facets of the Steve.

Maybe I am too pessimistic. I do hope that some of the boys or the younger two girls might find themselves and maybe the influence of the wives might save the older two boys, but think it is fait accompli for Sarah and Terri. It is kind of tragic actually.

[Arete]

Count me as a person who has a very hard time seeing the sum total of Teri as 'victim'. I really struggle with my feelings about her, because she reminds me a lot of someone in my own life, minus the religion. Teri was definitely manipulated by Steve when she was depressed and therefore vulnerable. What I can't acknowledge is giving her a pass on how she chose to cooperate. She had education and she came from a solid family, this didn't have to be her life and it most certainly did not have to be her children's lives. When you analyze some of her Mom's Corners, you can see just how much she is playing to women's fears of inadequacy. It's more than just presenting her own fears and saying "see, you are not alone in feeling overwhelmed with childcare, homeschooling, etc", everything is calculated to lull a woman into thinking that she really understands, and then Terri moves in with the Bible verses and the shaming. It's always about how if you want to reach spiritual perfection as a helpmeet and mother, empty your brain but for this verse, and repeat it until you promise to live it. It's not OK to send your kids to school, it's not OK to reach out to other parents, there is NEVER a question of trying to meet some of your needs to better meet your family's needs. Just try and free associate this verse with some kind of peace of mind.

Gah...I didn't explain this all that well, and I've been on a Maxwell reading fast for a few months, but there is just something very...calculating about what Terri does. Numb your brain, half ass your kids' education, and hopefully your husband will take over all the decision making and you just have to ride it out until your daughters are old enough to do the grunt work of running the house. It brings her family income, it gets her out of taking on any responsibility for what happens, and it has kept her sane. She is definitely invested up to her eyeballs.

Steve is a nasty little charlatan, but Teri had opportunities other Quiverfull women couldn't imagine. I save my sympathy for Sarah and the other children they both destroyed. No education, growing up in a manipulative cult, I just pity them. I can't even manage to roll my eyes at some of the stupid that comes from Sarah's keyboard. What chance did that girl really have?

[Shoes Grace]

There we go, thanks Palimpsest, that's much clearer. If Joseph's approach is Teri's, no, that's not going to work with teenagers, and he's going to be eternally frustrated. And, yeah, I didn't think of that being Teri's way of pointing out how godly her son is and how worldly the participants' kids were. That's good. And evil.

Can our next infiltrators sneak in a camera? Purely for research purposes, I was in sales for three years (and hated every minute of it) and a theatre major, this is a technique I need to see! They've never been closer than about two or three hours from me.

[OkToBeTakei]

Just a thought. But I personally hate the thought that Palimpsest's reports and the questions and replies will get lost in this thread. I would like to see it stand alone somewhere as a reference. Just me?

[already hungover]

Just a thought. But I personally hate the thought that Palimpsest's reports and the questions and replies will get lost in this thread. I would like to see it stand alone somewhere as a reference. Just me?

Maybe it could go in the Maxwell entry in the Reference section?

[lilith]

Just a thought. But I personally hate the thought that Palimpsest's reports and the questions and replies will get lost in this thread. I would like to see it stand alone somewhere as a reference. Just me?

I agree, maybe we could make a Maxhell infiltration thread for Palimpsest and Mr P's reports and the reports of the Uriah Humpers and other infiltrators?

[amyand4]

When I went I had been at work all day and my cell phone died on the way. I don't actually know how I got there except following signs for greenville as my phone is my gps. I was soooo mad I didn't get to take pictures though he said we couldn't video tape at least during the concert. I was one of the late people. Some man was late coming in to the concert and kept video taping on his phone. I was scared steve would come yell at him and snatch his phone. He was right in front of me. I almost moved. :penguin-no:

[OkToBeTakei]

I agree, maybe we could make a Maxhell infiltration thread for Palimpsest and Mr P's reports and the reports of the Uriah Humpers and other infiltrators?

:

Make it so :lol:

Not so sure the humping Uriah whilst hilarious would be appropriate. That thread was a clusterfuck. Things seem better now though. Not so judgy. But I would hate for this convo to be lost in the ether.

[lilith]

:

Make it so :lol:

Not so sure the humping Uriah whilst hilarious would be appropriate. That thread was a clusterfuck. Things seem better now though. Not so judgy. But I would hate for this convo to be lost in the ether.

What, you actually want me to do some modding? Grumble grumble, Happy Athiest usually does that.....

Was thinking of just pulling the report bits, not the further commentary, from the Rape of Uriah.

[Justme]

When I went I had been at work all day and my cell phone died on the way. I don't actually know how I got there except following signs for greenville as my phone is my gps. I was soooo mad I didn't get to take pictures though he said we couldn't video tape at least during the concert. I was one of the late people. Some man was late coming in to the concert and kept video taping on his phone. I was scared steve would come yell at him and snatch his phone. He was right in front of me. I almost moved. :penguin-no:

Good heaven, why was Stevie so scared of someone taping? Isn't his "purpose" to keep people from going to h*ll? He should want as many people as possible to see his "show". Oh wait, then they won't BUY stuff. Stevie's REAL purpose is sales.

[OkToBeTakei]

What, you actually want me to do some modding? Grumble grumble, Happy Athiest usually does that.....

Was thinking of just pulling the report bits, not the further commentary, from the Rape of Uriah.

Hehe. Too funny. Not at all. You guys do a great job.

My advice lillith is get somebody who likes to do that kind of thing (try the you are SO better at it than me line :lol: )

Uriah had his own thread. Mr and Mrs P have a very different take. Interesting.

[Chibi Author]

I agree, maybe we could make a Maxhell infiltration thread for Palimpsest and Mr P's reports and the reports of the Uriah Humpers and other infiltrators?

I don't know about anyone else, but I would adore it if a thread (maybe a sticky?) would be made for the conference reports. It'd be so much easier to read everything without wading through all of the very wordy threads. :wink-penguin: