On the road again..... (Maxwells)

[OkToBeTakei]

Report from Greenfield, Part 4

Teri’s talk: Help for Harried Housewives.

Or whatever it was called. I’m burning out on the Maxwells.

I’m not going to get into the content much. It was pretty much an hour long infomercial for the chore packs and books. You know, there really isn’t anything particularly original about the Maxwell materials. I also think that schedules are good, lists are useful, and children can teach each other and help with chores. Chore packs seem a bit redundant, but if that works for you, then fine.

It is the extreme to which the Maxwells take all these things. That is what is nuts.

Perhaps the only positive thing I can say about the Maxwell message is that they do acknowledge, to a certain degree, that the life of a sheltered, quiverful, homeschooling, SAHM really rather stinks. Or at least Teri does. Sort of. Maybe.

It must be even stinkier when you are married to a control freak like Steve. I hope that statement doesn’t get Teri into trouble with Steve. He’ll need to change her presentation for her.

Here are a few notes, in no particular order.

Teri is quite a good speaker. I thought she spoke a bit too fast, and when she was telling us things that were *deep and meaningful* her voice got squeaky. Not nearly as shrill and squeally as Michelle Duggar (I couldn’t have sat through an hour of her) but I found Teri’s squeaky moments a bit irritating. This seems a rather petty. I’ve done a fair amount of public speaking myself so I’m a tough audience, I know.

The whole thing came over as canned, over-practiced, timed to the last second, and unspontaneous. Even the dusty ceiling fan “joke†seemed forced. Ha ha.

She probably spent more time talking about chores than she did about academics. Or I was getting bored.

She spent a surprising amount of time dissing boys. They are untidy, take longer to grow out of needing chore packs, don’t pick up on cleaning as fast as girls, and they leave the bathroom in a mess. Note to Teri: Why didn’t you add a “rinse the sink after spitting out toothpaste†card to the boys’ chore packs?

I disliked her referring to her children by name when she talked about academics, and how some needed extra time to accomplish certain subjects.

She had props! Some hiking stick things. She brandished them rather dangerously at times. Luckily there was no-one in the front rows.

She gave several shout-outs to Melanie and Anna Marie.

Joseph gets on the bus practically crying after some of his "Who is Jesus" sessions. The teens aren't interested because they have been exposed to evil cell phones and outside influences.

She got quite nervous when she still had a Powerpoint slide to talk about at the end of the hour. Another note to Teri: If you hadn’t apologized for running a minute or two over, no-one would have noticed. Neither would we have cared. I suppose Steve would, though.

I just looked at my kitchen ceiling fan. It needs dusting. My bad. I should be dusting it every week and cleaning it with chemicals once a month because I don't have 8 little kids at home.

A final note to Teri: Try using white vinegar and baking soda to clean. Safer in the hands of little kids, effective, cheap, and Greener than chemicals.

Any questions? Forget it. The Maxwells don’t allow questions.

She did get some polite applause at the end. The women then all got busy greeting each other, obviously most knew each other. I went to find Mr P.

Oh, and Uriah is freaking ENORMOUS! I meant to take a picture, but we were too intent on escape after the session.

Sorry about the long quote on my phone I am stupid about knowing how to quote just a wee bit.

Palimpsest. See where you said your impression that Teri maybe implied SAHD life was a bit crap? Can you expand why you got that impression? Fascinating!

Really great report btw :)

[Marian the Librarian]

We think there were about 26 families there, going by the number of cars and not counting Uriah. Lots of mega families. We didn't see anyone buying the books etc. We left too fast. I glanced at the table when I went in but I didn't see anyone else show much interest first thing in the morning. Also, remember that about a third of the families were late. :shock:

I asked Mr P. We were making fun of Steve's ungrammatical session titles on the drive home. I mentioned that we had snarked here about Joseph's original title for "Who is Jesus to You." I can't remember what the original title was, but it was funny. The title was changed within a couple of hours of the snark here, IIRC.

Mr P says that Steve stumbled over Joseph's session title during his session, to his own annoyance. He then said that Joseph's talk had been called something else previously. Mr P thinks that Steve then muttered something like, "People made fun of it." Or perhaps "internet feedback made us decide to change it" in a rather pissy way. Something like that, he can't quite remember. We took it as proof that Steve had seen the snark, but we may be wrong.

Then there was the fact that they were obviously looking out for evil infiltrators. :D

I think there's no question that Stevehovah reads here - there have been way too many coincidences to indicate otherwise. A Maxwell will put up a blog post containing a misspelling or a grammatical error, someone here will comment on it, and poof - like magic, it's corrected. Also, an FJ-er posted a comment on the Maxwells' blog wishing Sarah "a year of freedom and happiness" on her birthday two years ago. The comment initially went through unscathed, someone here noticed and commented on it, and the words "freedom and" were suddenly gone.

Frankly, I think Steve gets off, big time, on the attention he gets on FJ. Which is not to say we should change anything - on the contrary, one of my dearest fantasies is that some deus ex machina (a major media outlet? a specialist in freeing victims of severe religious abuse?) would read here, swoop down on Leavenworth KS, set Teri and the "children" free, and then hurt that evil little man until he begs for mercy. :evil:

ETA - Oh, and I wanted to say, thanks again to Palimpsest and Mr. P. for the continued great reporting. And what a fun and unusual "date!" Way more interesting than dinner-and-a-movie...you've inspired me to talk Mr. MtL into doing something similar the next time fundie royalty show up around here.

[Shoes Grace]

Joseph gets on the bus practically crying after some of his "Who is Jesus" sessions. The teens aren't interested because they have been exposed to evil cell phones and outside influences.

If a handful of religiously-raised teenagers in their own church have the power to make a 24 year old man cry after spending a few hours with them, this is a young man who is not prepared to interact with anyone ever. Those kids can't possibly be raising hell down there. Think of it, at 24, he could have an education degree and be in his second year teaching high school subjects to a bunch of typical teenagers- they would eat him alive.

There's a chance he's upset because he can't save their souls and that's what Steve expects, so every time he doesn't manage to mold a basement full of kids into his image, he thinks he's failed himself, his father and his god.

I'm not sure which scenario is worse, that he's so cowed by children or by his father. Either way, that's some high level anxiety.

ETA: I'm a Beatles fan, so I laugh before I weep that the band has their very own Stuart Sutcliffe in Sarah.

[NotAFundieGrrrl]

Palimpsest, let me echo the others: You're amazing--and what a man/trooper you've got there. Thanks to you both.

The Maxwells were in Central Texas awhile back, and I was so tempted to at least do a drive-by of the church...If they're ever back this way, I'm SO crashing the, uh, party (?!?). I'm a good actress and despite being an unmarried, tattooed, childless heathen, I could definitely fit in. Pleeeease, let them have a Q&A session if the "blessed" dog, pony and chorepack show ever makes a return to the Austin area!!!

[Palimpsest]

OKtobeTakei

That is a very good question. I think you meant this bit. Quoting my own verbose post:

"Perhaps the only positive thing I can say about the Maxwell message is that they do acknowledge, to a certain degree, that the life of a sheltered, quiverful, homeschooling, SAHM really rather stinks. Or at least Teri does. Sort of. Maybe."

Teri never admitted to having been clinically depressed in her talk yesterday. I think she (or Steve) has admitted to it elsewhere. IMO, she was genuinely clinically depressed. Post-partum depression? Or perhaps just a person who is vulnerable to depression? Quite frankly, were I married to Steve, I would be situationally, normatively, depressed, even without multiple rug rats pulling me in every different direction. But that is rather beside the point.

Per Teri, Steve/God solved all her problems (healed her?) with schedules. Where is that vomit icon?

It is a bit nebulous, but Teri's talk is very empathetic. Sympathetic. Very supportive of overwhelmed Moms struggling with home schooling many kids, cooking, keeping up with the housework to Daddy's exacting standards, and all that. The Moms at her talk were supposed to come away with tools to help them. Encouraged, empowered and supported. And I think they did.

A lot of the squeaky stuff was her crying out to the Lord about feeling overwhelmed at the needs of her 8, count them, 8 children. (Why am I suddenly getting a Kate Gosselin flashback?)

She is very clear that this job is hard. How do you deal with all those children and also keep up the house, all on a small budget? I wouldn't want to!

I'm going to go out on a limb here. I think that Teri does like being organized by Steve, lists and oven timers. She has turned over all control and absolved herself of all responsibility. That freedom from responsibility may well have helped with her depression. Or perhaps menopause helped too. It does sometimes.

Her "helpers" shared responsibility for the cleaning, and probably do most of it today. Steve took responsibility for Quality Assurance (yes, Teri did cough up a couple of Big Words) and discipline.

And Biblical leadership, of course.

I don't think she is a stupid woman. Nor do I think she is lazy. She comes over as sweet but programmed. Possibly rather fragile, and that is the impression she and Steve want her to portray.

But I wouldn't want to cross her. I think that Teri would bite if provoked.

Did that make any sense?

[johnhugh]

Something else creepy to think about though - in 2008 the Muncks went to one of these conferences for the first time. And they were not repulsed, but rather PULLED INTO IT. They wanted more, and kept going back...

Spot on, and even though some people make them their pet fundie idols for the amount of suagr they feed their quiver and that Liz ditched Joe, they are still very far down that road.

[johnhugh]

This has made fascinating reading Palimpsest, so thank you for both going and reporting back in such great detail.

How did you mean that Teri gave shout outs to NR Anna and Melanie? How was FJ mentioned or hinted at?

Oh Stevie, you are going to have to up your security. Go and get a back rub.

[Palimpsest]

Spot on, and even though some people make them their pet fundie idols for the amount of suagr they feed their quiver and that Liz ditched Joe, they are still very far down that road.

Yes. The Maxwells have a very shiny and seductive paint job covering the rust and decay underneath. I hope that the Muncks are running as fast as they can. But the cynic in me thinks that they are still in very deep.

[Hane]

FJers, you do not know how much I regret missing this sojourn into Maxhell, but I was too busy endangering my immortal soul at play rehearsal, pretending to be a nun, a lesbian, and an aged nymphomaniac.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Spot on, and even though some people make them their pet fundie idols for the amount of suagr they feed their quiver and that Liz ditched Joe, they are still very far down that road.

I'll give props to Liz for getting out - but then again, if you remember, she was SIXTEEN YEARS OLD when her family got sucked into the Maxwell orbit. There's a picture of her in jeans and hoodie standing next to her own new car. That's only two years from legal adulthood in the US.

Meaning, she didn't grow up with it. (Oh, her parents were certainly fundie, but not quite all that way crazy Maxwellian.) Liz maybe was pulled along by her parents for a little while, but surely from Steve-O's point of view she was already ruined. :) They couldn't save her, alas...

I am curious as to how the rest of her family feels about Maxwellia now. Even if they had an official breaking up or cutting ties, do they still think all the advice in the books and whatever is good advice? (Because it's SCARY STUFF, trust me...)

[gardenvarietycitizen]

It is a bit nebulous, but Teri's talk is very empathetic. Sympathetic. Very supportive of overwhelmed Moms struggling with home schooling many kids, cooking, keeping up with the housework to Daddy's exacting standards, and all that. The Moms at her talk were supposed to come away with tools to help them. Encouraged, empowered and supported. And I think they did.

A lot of the squeaky stuff was her crying out to the Lord about feeling overwhelmed at the needs of her 8, count them, 8 children. (Why am I suddenly getting a Kate Gosselin flashback?)

She is very clear that this job is hard. How do you deal with all those children and also keep up the house, all on a small budget? I wouldn't want to!

That's all right in line with her books - the main thing she "sells" in her homeschooling books is the idea that it's okay, even Godly, and Biblically approved, to use textbooks, and it's okay to schedule your kids to do chores. It's a specific response to the other big stream in homeschooling which seems to say that you should be engaging your kids personally 24/7 and using "living books" and projects and nature studies and all the rest of the upper class Victorian/Edwardian "drawing room" type romantic schooling, or the similarly involved full classical education. Problem is, those things take a lot of time, and for an overwhelmed Mom who insists that all decisions have to have a scriptural founding, surely Teri's books are indeed treasures.

There are practical suggestions in there too, but the simple idea of "it's okay to tell your kids to do workbooks on their own and call it a day, God understands" is huge.

[OkToBeTakei]

OKtobeTakei

That is a very good question. I think you meant this bit. Quoting my own verbose post:

"Perhaps the only positive thing I can say about the Maxwell message is that they do acknowledge, to a certain degree, that the life of a sheltered, quiverful, homeschooling, SAHM really rather stinks. Or at least Teri does. Sort of. Maybe."

Teri never admitted to having been clinically depressed in her talk yesterday. I think she (or Steve) has admitted to it elsewhere. IMO, she was genuinely clinically depressed. Post-partum depression? Or perhaps just a person who is vulnerable to depression? Quite frankly, were I married to Steve, I would be situationally, normatively, depressed, even without multiple rug rats pulling me in every different direction. But that is rather beside the point.

Per Teri, Steve/God solved all her problems (healed her?) with schedules. Where is that vomit icon?

It is a bit nebulous, but Teri's talk is very empathetic. Sympathetic. Very supportive of overwhelmed Moms struggling with home schooling many kids, cooking, keeping up with the housework to Daddy's exacting standards, and all that. The Moms at her talk were supposed to come away with tools to help them. Encouraged, empowered and supported. And I think they did.

A lot of the squeaky stuff was her crying out to the Lord about feeling overwhelmed at the needs of her 8, count them, 8 children. (Why am I suddenly getting a Kate Gosselin flashback?)

She is very clear that this job is hard. How do you deal with all those children and also keep up the house, all on a small budget? I wouldn't want to!

I'm going to go out on a limb here. I think that Teri does like being organized by Steve, lists and oven timers. She has turned over all control and absolved herself of all responsibility. That freedom from responsibility may well have helped with her depression. Or perhaps menopause helped too. It does sometimes.

Her "helpers" shared responsibility for the cleaning, and probably do most of it today. Steve took responsibility for Quality Assurance (yes, Teri did cough up a couple of Big Words) and discipline.

And Biblical leadership, of course.

I don't think she is a stupid woman. Nor do I think she is lazy. She comes over as sweet but programmed. Possibly rather fragile, and that is the impression she and Steve want her to portray.

But I wouldn't want to cross her. I think that Teri would bite if provoked.

Did that make any sense?

Totally.

So basically she is saying, look it's a shit deal really but here is how to make it less intolerable. That is so incredibly sad and depressing.

I wonder if some small part of her ever questions if sacrificing all of her own needs, ambitions and desires and those of her daughters will indeed be worth this 'marvellous' afterlife.

They remind me exactly of those who sacrifice themselves with bombs in the name of some belief which promises some equally fantastical glory. Just less violent. I am sure Steve would deride their beliefs as misplaced, whilst never understanding that to me his are no better :(

[Palimpsest]

This has made fascinating reading Palimpsest, so thank you for both going and reporting back in such great detail.

How did you mean that Teri gave shout outs to NR Anna and Melanie? How was FJ mentioned or hinted at?

Oh Stevie, you are going to have to up your security. Go and get a back rub.

Both NR Anna and Melanie are splendiferous Maxwell mothers. Teri is very proud of their ability to assimilate into the Borg collective.

I mentioned the FJ hints about 6 posts up on this page. :D

Seriously, I think that Steve will be upping his security in the future. I hope it takes the form of refusing to let unknown people in. But the man is a nasty bit of work. And an angry person. I truly doubt he'd ever get violent, but I wouldn't put it past him to trap you in a room and harangue you in the name of God. For hours. Note to Steve: Don't let me give you any ideas. That would be illegal!

If other FJers decide to go to a Maxwell Conference I'd advise taking basic precautionary measures. Make sure you have a fully charged phone with you. Make sure someone knows where you are, and arrange for quick phone check ins at every break. You can time that easily. Steve sticks to a schedule! You might also arrange for a code word. If you say the code word, all is OK. If you don't say it, then send in the cavalry!

Err, did I mention that Steve Maxwell gave us the creeps. And we are not delicate little flowers.

We felt guilty during our infiltration. For many of the more innocent of the people attending, we knew that they would think of us exactly what we think of Westboro. It is not a nice feeling. We are still glad we did it.

I wonder. Will Steve suggest that tiny boys are left in child care with Sarah, or with their mothers during his next testosterone driven man-to-man session?

Or will he read Mr P's report and give himself a high five? Will he be proud that he scared little boys? I think he will. He is "saving" 5 year olds.

[HoneyBunny]

If a handful of religiously-raised teenagers in their own church have the power to make a 24 year old man cry after spending a few hours with them, this is a young man who is not prepared to interact with anyone ever. Those kids can't possibly be raising hell down there. Think of it, at 24, he could have an education degree and be in his second year teaching high school subjects to a bunch of typical teenagers- they would eat him alive.

There's a chance he's upset because he can't save their souls and that's what Steve expects, so every time he doesn't manage to mold a basement full of kids into his image, he thinks he's failed himself, his father and his god.

I'm not sure which scenario is worse, that he's so cowed by children or by his father. Either way, that's some high level anxiety.

ETA: I'm a Beatles fan, so I laugh before I weep that the band has their very own Stuart Sutcliffe in Sarah.

My first thought was that he was fighting tears because of the inaneness of his life. A 24-year old adult with no education and no friends still living with his parents and being forced to put on dog and pony shows about blessing his family and getting along with his siblings to groups of unappreciative kids who are in the same boat, then return to Uriah to eat meager quantities of pre-determined, no choices food with the same people he's eaten every single meal of his life with, followed by a second hour of Bible reading that day, with more prayers and gnashing of teeth for those poor souls of the world who are actually "enjoying this life", only to fall asleep in a moving plywood cubbyhole inches away from the same people who you've spent your entire day- heck, your entire life- with might be the reason poor Joey-boy feels some angst.

God knows he deserves to.

[thoughtful]

Seriously, I think that Steve will be upping his security in the future. I hope it takes the form of refusing to let unknown people in. But the man is a nasty bit of work. And an angry person. I truly doubt he'd ever get violent, but I wouldn't put it past him to trap you in a room and harangue you in the name of God. For hours.

:borg:

Resistance is futile.

[treemom]

Are you seriously telling us that despite the billions of photos they take, we still haven't seen what the offspring really look like?

The women are all better looking. That was what me and the other two who went with me commented about after we saw them. Especially the middle daughter whose name escapes me and terry

[treemom]

Mrs p. much of what you said about Steve was my impression too.

[Shoes Grace]

My first thought was that he was fighting tears because of the inaneness of his life. A 24-year old adult with no education and no friends still living with his parents and being forced to put on dog and pony shows about blessing his family and getting along with his siblings to groups of unappreciative kids who are in the same boat, then return to Uriah to eat meager quantities of pre-determined, no choices food with the same people he's eaten every single meal of his life with, followed by a second hour of Bible reading that day, with more prayers and gnashing of teeth for those poor souls of the world who are actually "enjoying this life", only to fall asleep in a moving plywood cubbyhole inches away from the same people who you've spent your entire day- heck, your entire life- with might be the reason poor Joey-boy feels some angst.

God knows he deserves to.

And Terri's just construing it as difficulty with the session? Oh man, that's even sadder. To want to be part of the lifestyle he's seeing the kids leading and being totally unable to join and playing it off like it's tough work?

Maybe he hoped that Liz Munck would be his chance out, then, if she wasn't too sold on the lifestyle. In it, but not of it, he thought maybe they could escape across town and turn into a normal couple, but she never had the chance to be alone with him for them to actually share that opinion? That's heartbreaking, to think it's not that she escaped, but that she unknowingly abandoned Joe longing for freedom.

That's probably not true at all, but I'm enjoying the cheesy Lifetime movie of *that* relationship that's playing in my head now. :popcorn2:

[treemom]

One of the former fjers who went with me to the maxwell thing here had actually been in the room with Charles Manson at one point in her life and she said that Steve gave her the same feeling.

He was creepy. I think more than anything after meeting them, the maxwell situation bothers me the most. After the laughter from our immature hijinks wore off, I became more and more disturbed by the situation. It bothers me enough that I have had dreams about how I should have done something to help the non-Steve members of that family.

[Arete]

So, the take home message of the Steve and Terrified show is that God will fry your children in Hell because you didn't keep up with daily Bible time, but He is totally cool and understanding with you half assing their secular education.

Please God, save the children. (not snark)

[Palimpsest]

One of the former fjers who went with me to the maxwell thing here had actually been in the room with Charles Manson at one point in her life and she said that Steve gave her the same feeling.

He was creepy. I think more than anything after meeting them, the maxwell situation bothers me the most. After the laughter from our immature hijinks wore off, I became more and more disturbed by the situation. It bothers me enough that I have had dreams about how I should have done something to help the non-Steve members of that family.

Thanks. The Charles Manson analogy is good. I've been in the same room with someone of a similar ilk, I'd rather not say whom because it might blow my anonymity here.

Steve Maxwell definitely gives off a similar vibe. IMO. Creepy. Might manipulate or incite others to violence but would probably not indulge in it himself.

But, really. How can we help the Maxwell "children?" My gut feeling is that Teri is almost too far gone to help much.

The whole family is so programmed and controlled. Were Steve suddenly to be incapacitated or kick the proverbial bucket (no Steve, I'm not ill-wishing you, just being practical, you are around my age) I think the whole family system would simply collapse. I don't think any one of them has the ability to make a decision on their own.

Or do the two oldest boys have some autonomy these days? I don't get that impression from the Titus 2 blog, but hope springs eternal.

[nokidsmom]

Honestly, I get the feeling that, in the case of Steve's untimely demise, I don't think any of them (oldest boys included) would know what to do. Steveovah drives everything.

I can't imagine living the way they do. Holy shit.

[bionicmlle]

Looks to me like they visited Rebecca (rather unusual maiden's) church. I wonder if she will post about it.

[YPestis]

Thank you, Palimpsest, for your informative post. I'm sorry you were unable to stay for more than an hour but I can't blame you.

I think you had a intriguing point when you suggested Terri's depression may have receded precisely because she gave up all control to Steve. In previous Maxwell books, Terri wrote that she had given up homeschooling the kids at one point due to stress and depression, so Steve suggested putting each child (they only had three at that time) in a different room during the day and when he (Steve) gets off work, he would take control of their education. It sounds to me like Teri agreed to some form of that when she gave up all control in her life. This kind of fits what I know of the Maxwell parents. It's possible Terri was actually enabling her own subjugation. Life is certainly less stressful when you don't have to deal with decisions. I wonder if that's how Terri dealt with her untreated depression.

[Peppercorn]

FJers, you do not know how much I regret missing this sojourn into Maxhell, but I was too busy endangering my immortal soul at play rehearsal, pretending to be a nun, a lesbian, and an aged nymphomaniac.

One day, sometime, somewhere, please introduce that character to Steve. Please, please, please!

Thanks again, Mr. and Mrs. P. :worship: Loved the in-depth, insightful reports. Even though they made me very sad for all Maxwells not named Steve. Life with him must truly be hellish.