Pope Francis shaking things up?

[Irishy]

^^ that. And I never said he was all bad.

I missed that bit about the AIDS hospice. Let me rephrase: If he continues to do what he did (I'm assuming some gays were included) in 2001, I might be inclined to be more impressed. Time will tell. There has been controversy about the papacy's stance on gays/gay marriage for years. I don't think two weeks of one seemingly good guy and one instance of mass and foot washing negates that.

Don't try and pin that shit on me valsa. It's something I heard on a news item the day he was elected. It's not MY assumption.

All I'm saying is, what's happening in Rome is interesting.

[valsa]

Don't try and pin that shit on me valsa. It's something I heard on a news item the day he was elected. It's not MY assumption.

VooDooChild said "gays and transgender people", you said "AIDS" as if that somehow automatically implies that those AIDS patients must have been gay (especially odd since the one picture I've seen of the visit shows him kissing the feet of what appears to be a child)

[Diana]

He is interesting. I love that he has decided against living in the Papal apartment but instead has chosen to live with some regular priests. I still am conflicted over what he did or did not do in Argentina against the dictatorship that was active there and I worry about the "disappeared".

But all that aparently are lies told to discredit him in the past because he was critic with the politics in argentina and Cristina Kirchner, it was said by a nun on tv the other day... actually that nun(Sor Lucia Caram)has a very progressive mentality and is a supporter of gay marriage, she knew him personally and is happy with him as a pope, so for me this is a good signal.

[pookel]

VooDooChild said "gays and transgender people", you said "AIDS" as if that somehow automatically implies that those AIDS patients must have been gay (especially odd since the one picture I've seen of the visit shows him kissing the feet of what appears to be a child)

I think it's fair to assume that in a large group of AIDS patients, at least some of them will be gay.

[theologygeek]

There is no single "Muslim church" in the same way there is a "Catholic church" but for the Muslims who belong to their individual mosques that discriminate against women and gays- absolutely.

I stopped going to church because I wouldn't support a pope who was moving pedophile priests around to different churches instead of ordering them fired. Now a pope comes along who says that moving the priests around was stupid and they should have had their priest licenses taken away. What is your solution to people who want to attend a church whose doctrine lines up with a person's "hill to die on" (mine being service to the poor and suffering which is a part of good works)? I won't go to a Protestant church because I don't believe in sola fide. Am I shit out of luck because the only faith that preaches faith plus works is the one that won't let women be priests? I am not debating it. I just want to know what your solution is. Everyone has an opinion, but no one has a solution.

[valsa]

I think it's fair to assume that in a large group of AIDS patients, at least some of them will be gay.

If we were talking about, maybe, the late 80s to early 90s then, yes, I would think it fair to assume that most of the patients would be gay. However, by 2001 the disease had spread far beyond just being a "gay disease" (which is why I pointed out the 2001 date of his visit) By 2000, WHO was estimating that 15%-20% of new HIV cases alone were due to blood transfusions, which doesn't even factor in transmission via drug use/needle sharing, unprotected straight sex, and mother-child routes. Considering the only known patient at the hospice appears to have been a child, there's no reason to believe a majority or even any of the patients at that hospice (let alone the ones the pope interacted with) were gay.

AIDS = gay is a very harmful and lingering stereotype that should be denounced anytime someone perpetuates it.

[valsa]

I stopped going to church because I wouldn't support a pope who was moving pedophile priests around to different churches instead of ordering them fired. Now a pope comes along who says that moving the priests around was stupid and they should have had their priest licenses taken away. What is your solution to people who want to attend a church whose doctrine lines up with a person's "hill to die on" (mine being service to the poor and suffering which is a part of good works)? I won't go to a Protestant church because I don't believe in sola fide. Am I shit out of luck because the only faith that preaches faith plus works is the one that won't let women be priests? I am not debating it. I just want to know what your solution is. Everyone has an opinion, but no one has a solution.

My solution would be to do your goods works in an institution that doesn't discriminate, even if that means it's not a religious institution.

Let me put it this way- I would never support a pro-LGBT organization that discriminated against the poor and suffering. I'd consider myself a pretty fucked up person if I did so. So I find it weird that someone else would be okay with supporting a pro-helping-the-poor (if you can call it help) institution that discriminates.

[kpmom]

I stopped going to church because I wouldn't support a pope who was moving pedophile priests around to different churches instead of ordering them fired. Now a pope comes along who says that moving the priests around was stupid and they should have had their priest licenses taken away. What is your solution to people who want to attend a church whose doctrine lines up with a person's "hill to die on" (mine being service to the poor and suffering which is a part of good works)? I won't go to a Protestant church because I don't believe in sola fide. Am I shit out of luck because the only faith that preaches faith plus works is the one that won't let women be priests? I am not debating it. I just want to know what your solution is. Everyone has an opinion, but no one has a solution.

It was for this very reason, theologygeek, I chose the Episcopal Church when I decided to return to church. They are very much into social justice, and allow women priests (and have an openly gay bishop). I'm speaking of the U.S. church. I believe it's different in Europe and Canada. You might not be in the U.S.

[PennySycamore]

I agree!

I was really hoping that Cardinal Oswald Gracias (Bombay), I thought he would stand-up to the Vatican buearcracy and stop the Vatican's crackdown on the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, stop butting in to U.S. elections.

However, as someone who has been craving for a Pope who champions social justice, I find myself surprised at how much I like him. He is acting less like a Head of State, and seems to have a fierce pastoral dedication to those who need him the most (the poor, sick, imprisioned). I find it refreshing to have a Pope that will not be wearing red Prada shoes, whose ring is gold plated instead of pure gold, who thus far is resisting the trapings of the Vatican.

I never could understand why we ask our Priests and Nuns to take vows of poverty, and yet the Pope (and many Cardinals) do lot live in such humble homes.

Only time will tell what kind of Pope he will be, but if he is annoying my in-laws (who already believe that Jesuits are not REAL priests), then :lol: he is off to a great start!

Only priests that belong to religious orders take vows of poverty. (They also take vows of chastity and obedience.) Most priests, IIRC, are diocesan or secular priests who do not take vows of poverty. Frances is a member of the Society of Jesus (SJ); in other words, he's a Jesuit. I like the Jesuits. Those in America tend to be progressive and they prize education. I also happen to count a co-founder of the Jesuits in my lineage. Not direct lineage, of course, but I am descended from one of the brothers of St Francis Xavier.

All sisters/nuns/women religious are, of course, members of an order.

[theologygeek]

My solution would be to do your goods works in an institution that doesn't discriminate, even if that means it's not a religious institution.

Let me put it this way- I would never support a pro-LGBT organization that discriminated against the poor and suffering. I'd consider myself a pretty fucked up person if I did so. So I find it weird that someone else would be okay with supporting a pro-helping-the-poor (if you can call it help) institution that discriminates.

That wasn't what I asked. I was referring to a church, not a non religious institution. I want to worship God in a church. The Catholic Church is the only church that teaches faith plus works, as opposed to faith alone. I went to a Greek Orthodox church last month and a root canal was more fun than that. What is your solution?

[LadyFriend]

That wasn't what I asked. I was referring to a church, not a non religious institution. I want to worship God in a church. The Catholic Church is the only church that teaches faith plus works, as opposed to faith alone. I went to a Greek Orthodox church last month and a root canal was more fun than that. What is your solution?

Out of curiosity....why? Is this something that you think is required in some way or is this just for personal reasons?

[theologygeek]

It was for this very reason, theologygeek, I chose the Episcopal Church when I decided to return to church. They are very much into social justice, and allow women priests (and have an openly gay bishop). I'm speaking of the U.S. church. I believe it's different in Europe and Canada. You might not be in the U.S.

They were on my list of potential churches, but they preach sola fide. I am not comfortable with that.

[theologygeek]

Out of curiosity....why? Is this something that you think is required in some way or is this just for personal reasons?

Personal reasons. It makes me happy.

[valsa]

That wasn't what I asked. I was referring to a church, not a non religious institution. I want to worship God in a church. The Catholic Church is the only church that teaches faith plus works, as opposed to faith alone. I went to a Greek Orthodox church last month and a root canal was more fun than that. What is your solution?

First of all, other people have already suggested alternate churches to you. Secondly, worshiping God in a church and doing your good works outside of a church are not mutally exclusive. You can do both. Third, if you're unwilling to either go to an alternate church that supports social justice alongside religion or compromise your need to have both under one roof in a ridiculuously specific way that only the Catholic church fills- then yes, you're a shitty person.

In fact, I think this has already been covered in the "Catholic Conversation with Gay Friend about Gay Marriage" thread. To steal a couple applicable quotes from there-

Latching on to a specific religious system because it provides a sense of "black and white" still seems a lot like putting your own personal comfort level above the well-being of the people you're oppressing.

It seems to me that what she is really saying is that she likes the comfort and community she gets from her conservative Catholicism more than she is concerned about discrimination against her friends. Because she values what the ideology does for her, she dismisses what it does to him. I don't see this as being a good friend or living Jesus's example.

To clarify how their points relate here- if you must have your worship of God and love of good works mashed together is some weird way that only appeals to you coming from a discriminatory institution, you’re putting your own sense of comfort and flavor of ideology above the well-being of people who are suffering from that discrimination and it’s an incredibly un-Jesus-like thing for a Christian to do.

[OkToBeTakei]

It is naive enough to think the catholic church will change. I am ok with that to be honest..it is a constant prejudice. I would like to think that guns and sport and all those other religions I hear are such a constant. Better the devil you know.

[Hane]

Personal reasons. It makes me happy.

This is a concept that many people "don't get." After I left the Roman Catholic Church and became a UU, I had a hard time putting into words what religious affiliation did for me until I heard my new pastor use the term "beloved community." It feeds my soul to be among like-minded people who do good.

[theologygeek]

First of all, other people have already suggested alternate churches to you. Secondly, worshiping God in a church and doing your good works outside of a church are not mutally exclusive. You can do both. Third, if you're unwilling to either go to an alternate church that supports social justice alongside religion or compromise your need to have both under one roof in a ridiculuously specific way that only the Catholic church fills- then yes, you're a shitty person.

No, they haven't already suggested alternative churches to me. Where has anyone suggested an alternative church whose doctrine includes my hill to die on? Why would I attend a church that preaches the opposite of the most important thing that I believe? Why would a Muslim worship in a place that preaches against her hill to die on? Why would anyone? That is absurd. Again, your hill to die on isn't mine, so don't try to put yours on me. That is what you are doing, even if you don't realize it. You have yet to provide a solution. An opinion without a solution is just hot air. I will ask again. I want to go to church. My choices are to go to a church that preaches against the most important thing I believe, preaches in favor of the most important thing that I believe, or not go to church at all. Which one? I hit "like" on your post instead of hitting the quote button. That like was from me. lol

[mockingbird]

Only priests that belong to religious orders take vows of poverty. (They also take vows of chastity and obedience.) Most priests, IIRC, are diocesan or secular priests who do not take vows of poverty. Frances is a member of the Society of Jesus (SJ); in other words, he's a Jesuit. I like the Jesuits. Those in America tend to be progressive and they prize education. I also happen to count a co-founder of the Jesuits in my lineage. Not direct lineage, of course, but I am descended from one of the brothers of St Francis Xavier.

All sisters/nuns/women religious are, of course, members of an order.

The specific vows depend on the religious order. Jesuits (at least in the US) don't actually take a vow of poverty even though the order is hugely focused on social justice.

[valsa]

No, they haven't already suggested alternative churches to me. Where has anyone suggested an alternative church whose doctrine includes my hill to die on? Why would I attend a church that preaches the opposite of the most important thing that I believe? Why would a Muslim worship in a place that preaches against her hill to die on? Why would anyone? That is absurd. Again, your hill to die on isn't mine, so don't try to put yours on me. That is what you are doing, even if you don't realize it. You have yet to provide a solution. An opinion without a solution is just hot air. I will ask again. I want to go to church. My choices are to go to a church that preaches against the most important thing I believe, preaches in favor of the most important thing that I believe, or not go to church at all. Which one? I hit "like" on your post instead of hitting the quote button. That like was from me. lol

If you think refusing to attend a church that preaches sola fide but is different in absolutely no other way (other than the fact it doesn't discriminate) than the Catholic church, is a hill worth dying over, the only solution would be to accept that you're a shitty person. A probably a bad Christian to boot.

[OkToBeTakei]

If you think refusing to attend a church that preaches sola fide but is different in absolutely no other way (other than the fact it doesn't discriminate) than the Catholic church, is a hill worth dying over, the only solution would be to accept that you're a shitty person. A probably a bad Christian to boot.

So. What you are saying is that anybody even though they may not agree 100 percent with the doctrine of of their chosen religion. Even though they may get some personal comfort from that. You are saying that they are just all shitty? Because they do not agree with you? Do you live in the real world?

[valsa]

So. What you are saying is that anybody even though they may not agree 100 percent with the doctrine of of their chosen religion. Even though they may get some personal comfort from that. You are saying that they are just all shitty? Because they do not agree with you? Do you live in the real world?

You've got the situation reversed again. Ask me tomorrow, when the gin is out of your system.

ETA: Plus, it's my bed time. You know how us non-party girls are.

[theologygeek]

You've got the situation reversed again. Ask me tomorrow, when the gin is out of your system.

ETA: Plus, it's my bed time. You know how us non-party girls are.

I don't drink, and I think she's right. You are trying to force your beliefs on others, and insulting if they don't believe the same way you do. The Muslims are shitty, the Catholics are shitty, OkToBe is drunk. You sound like Zsu. She is another one with opinions but has no rational solutions.

[OkToBeTakei]

Totally happy btw.

[LadyFriend]

No, they haven't already suggested alternative churches to me. Where has anyone suggested an alternative church whose doctrine includes my hill to die on? Why would I attend a church that preaches the opposite of the most important thing that I believe? Why would a Muslim worship in a place that preaches against her hill to die on? Why would anyone? That is absurd. Again, your hill to die on isn't mine, so don't try to put yours on me. That is what you are doing, even if you don't realize it. You have yet to provide a solution. An opinion without a solution is just hot air. I will ask again. I want to go to church. My choices are to go to a church that preaches against the most important thing I believe, preaches in favor of the most important thing that I believe, or not go to church at all. Which one? I hit "like" on your post instead of hitting the quote button. That like was from me. lol

I have a feeling you have answered this 100 times so feel free to decline, but when it comes to preference for worship I am confused as to why sola fides is of such importance. (I recognize that this is probably naive given the history of the Church). Is this doctrinal difference really apparent in worship services? I admit I have attended only a few Protestant services, but the messaging sounded similar enough to me (to the Catholicism I was used to) that it didn't effect my experience.

I guess I am wondering why you are searching for works within the worship experience. Not sure if that makes sense.

[mockingbird]

I have heard of churches that are not/cannot be officially associated with Catholicism, but are much more progressive. I know there is one in PA that came up on here last year, run by an ex-Catholic priest. I am not sure how you would find them but maybe an organization like DignityUSA would have links?