Pope Francis shaking things up?

[theologygeek]

I have a feeling you have answered this 100 times so feel free to decline, but when it comes to preference for worship I am confused as to why sola fides is of such importance. (I recognize that this is probably naive given the history of the Church). Is this doctrinal difference really apparent in worship services? I admit I have attended only a few Protestant services, but the messaging sounded similar enough to me (to the Catholicism I was used to) that it didn't effect my experience.

I guess I am wondering why you are searching for works within the worship experience. Not sure if that makes sense.

The most important thing to me in my beliefs, besides Jesus being God, is Matthew chapter 25. I have felt this way since I was six years old. I don't want to get into why because it is very personal, but that chapter explains how I feel deep in my soul. As someone else said, it feeds my soul. I can't go to a church with a sola fide doctrine. It makes me cringe. Although I don't agree with all Catholic doctrine, they do include in the their doctrine the thing that means the most to me. Protestant churches don't.

On another note, this is a personal thing, and Protestants who believe in faith alone do not make me cringe. The only time I have something to say is when anyone, Catholic or Protestant, talk against helping the less fortunate. Also, I can't relate to people who think their conviction is more important than mine, and if I don't have theirs, then I'm not a good person. They can go suck it for all I care. I'm for gay marriage, and it would be nice if women were priests, but neither of those are my hills to die on.

[LadyFriend]

The most important thing to me in my beliefs, besides Jesus being God, is Matthew chapter 25. I have felt this way since I was six years old. I don't want to get into why because it is very personal, but that chapter explains how I feel deep in my soul. As someone else said, it feeds my soul. I can't go to a church with a sola fide doctrine. It makes me cringe. Although I don't agree with all Catholic doctrine, they do include in the their doctrine the thing that means the most to me. Protestant churches don't.

Fair enough. My curiosity is piqued, but I appreciate the answer. I can relate, I suppose. My "soul" feels the same cringe when I enter a Catholic church so I can understand that type of quasi-emotional element.

[BravaAmica]

How do you know that those are PR moves? Do you know anything about the Jesuits? As for your last sentence, are you kidding me? I have problems with the Catholic Church and have not been to mass in years because of the priest scandals, but you don't know what you're talking about if you think that the Catholic Church does not do any good in the world.

A handful of nuns working in orphanages and hospitals, monks copying books back in the day to keep them safe for future generations, sure a good thing. What else does the Catholic Church do that's so amazing that merits their continued existence? Not much, really. The Catholic Church needs to end sooner than later.

[theologygeek]

A handful of nuns working in orphanages and hospitals, monks copying books back in the day to keep them safe for future generations, sure a good thing. What else does the Catholic Church do that's so amazing that merits their continued existence? Not much, really. The Catholic Church needs to end sooner than later.

I don't have the strength for this one.

[crazyforkate]

Honestly, shitty people are the ones who think that over a billion people are uniformly bad for belonging to a certain religious group.

[LadyFriend]

I don't have the strength for this one.

Blecchhh....I strongly dislike the Catholic Church, but...

The Church does have it's hand in quite a lot of good-doing. Back in the day I served at food kitchens, homeless shelters, hospice care centers, etc. with Catholic-connected groups. I don't give all that much credit to the Church because I think the people are largely doing it for humanistic reasons...BUT...there are a lot of Catholic groups out there doing amazing social justice-oriented things.

This does not, imo, come close to making up for the harm they cause...but the good deeds are real and deserve acknowledgment.

[RainbowSky]

Excuse my ignorance!

So, this sola fide thing...there are churches that say you can go to heaven just by being a good person? And this is supposed to be all protestant churches? Because I've never in my life heard that that works, but that you have to accept Jesus/God depending on denomination, and be baptized depending on denomination.

I think I may be misunderstanding something somewhere.

Edited for a typo. Probably the first-I think-in a long string.

[mockingbird]

Excuse my ignorance!

So, this sola fide thing...there are churches that say you can go to heaven just by being a good person? And this is supposed to be all protestant churches? Because I've never in my life heard that that works, but that you have to accept Jesus/God depending on denomination, and be baptized depending on denomination.

I think I may be misunderstanding something somewhere.

Edited for a typo. Probably the first-I think-in a long string.

I think it's the opposite, I'm pretty sure sola fide means "faith only". The Catholic church is works-based, meaning yeah you need to believe in the doctrine and be baptized, but you don't automatically get into heaven because you have faith. You have to be a good person too. (And have confessed any mortal sins.)

ETA: I think this is a lot of what makes the fundies seem hypocritical to me, they definitely preach salvation/faith-based faith, but you don't have "real" faith if you screw up and don't follow their gazillion rules.

[LadyFriend]

Excuse my ignorance!

So, this sola fide thing...there are churches that say you can go to heaven just by being a good person? And this is supposed to be all protestant churches? Because I've never in my life heard that that works, but that you have to accept Jesus/God depending on denomination, and be baptized depending on denomination.

I think I may be misunderstanding something somewhere.

Edited for a typo. Probably the first-I think-in a long string.

It's the opposite. Protestant Churches (as an umbrella) tend to hold to salvation by faith alone (sola fide). Catholics, on the other hand, hold that works are also at least representative if not required of the saved. This is a huge schism between Catholics and Protestants (there are obviously massive gray areas).

I had a few glasses of wine earlier so hopefully I'm still making sense, haha.

[Irishy]

The Catholic Church runs so many important charities in Ireland alone. Homelessness, suicide, poverty, addiction services to name a few. And then huge organisations that work in developing countries minus the evangelising and bible toting. To say they do no good (despite their many flaws) is unfair.

OkToBeTakei, how's the head? I know that gin comment will roll off your easygoing back but can't help but think that if the situation were reversed, the non party girl would take enormous offence to being called a piss head.

[fundiefun]

Catholic convert chiming in here I joined the church in 2010 and before that I went to many other churches protestant based and I didn't feel the connection that I have found in the Catholic Church. You can't judge every single Catholic as automatically being a shitty person because they belong to said church. There are Catholic organizations such as Catholics for Choice and Catholics for marriage equality that I support and I won't leave the church because of a few backwards thinkers. Change has to happen within and I'm glad that there are Catholics for Choice and Catholics for Equality who are growing in numbers to get their message across.

http://catholicsforequality.org/

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/

[Irishy]

If you think refusing to attend a church that preaches sola fide but is different in absolutely no other way (other than the fact it doesn't discriminate) than the Catholic church, is a hill worth dying over, the only solution would be to accept that you're a shitty person. A probably a bad Christian to boot.

I find this comment to be absolutely reprehensible. I think anniec still has the engine running. Why not join her valsa.

[formergothardite]

I think this thread shows how far we still need to go when it comes to equality for people who are gay.

[OkToBeTakei]

The Catholic Church runs so many important charities in Ireland alone. Homelessness, suicide, poverty, addiction services to name a few. And then huge organisations that work in developing countries minus the evangelising and bible toting. To say they do no good (despite their many flaws) is unfair.

OkToBeTakei, how's the head? I know that gin comment will roll off your easygoing back but can't help but think that if the situation were reversed, the non party girl would take enormous offence to being called a piss head.

Bleh bleh she can be all kinds of perfect, me? My fucking head is killing me and 15 for dinner tonight :lol:

Have to say in my gin induced haze the whole debate amused me. Not like anybody can defend x amount of million catholics. But point me to an evangelical gun toting everybody else is doing it wrong fundie and I'll own my lapsed status in my country that has legal abortion and is ok with gay marriage and laughs at bumper stickers. I don't have an issue with people finding comfort in religion. I don't. Gin is my god :lol:

[theologygeek]

Excuse my ignorance!

So, this sola fide thing...there are churches that say you can go to heaven just by being a good person? And this is supposed to be all protestant churches? Because I've never in my life heard that that works, but that you have to accept Jesus/God depending on denomination, and be baptized depending on denomination.

I think I may be misunderstanding something somewhere.

Edited for a typo. Probably the first-I think-in a long string.

Sola fide=faith alone

Catholic-faith plus grace (works)

Protestants-faith alone

[Nothing2CHere]

Don't worry, TheologyGeek, based on Valsa-logic, I'm a shitty person too because I live in the state of Ohio, which discriminates against gays (Ohio has a gay marriage ban). Obviously as soon as that ban was passed, I should have packed up my bags and moved to Massachusetts. But since I chose instead to stay in the only state I've ever lived in and I end up supporting Ohio with my tax money, I must be actively supporting my state's bigotry, too (even though I voted against the ban).

[Patsy]

Blecchhh....I strongly dislike the Catholic Church, but...

The Church does have it's hand in quite a lot of good-doing. Back in the day I served at food kitchens, homeless shelters, hospice care centers, etc. with Catholic-connected groups. I don't give all that much credit to the Church because I think the people are largely doing it for humanistic reasons...BUT...there are a lot of Catholic groups out there doing amazing social justice-oriented things.

This does not, imo, come close to making up for the harm they cause...but the good deeds are real and deserve acknowledgment.

^ that. I hate the hierarchy, dogma and riches, but the social justice movement within the church is HUGE and influential and absolutely deserves acknowledgment.

[theologygeek]

I think this thread shows how far we still need to go when it comes to equality for people who are gay.

There are too many issues in this world to concentrate on just one. The list is endless-child abuse, insurance that includes infertility treatments, the environment, the future of social security, health care, genetically modified foods, etc A better solution would be that everyone works on their own biggie while supporting others who are working on theirs. There is finally a Jesuit pope who is vocal about service to the poor and suffering. It's about time. I'm embracing it.

[theologygeek]

Don't worry, TheologyGeek, based on Valsa-logic, I'm a shitty person too because I live in the state of Ohio, which discriminates against gays (Ohio has a gay marriage ban). Obviously as soon as that ban was passed, I should have packed up my bags and moved to Massachusetts. But since I chose instead to stay in the only state I've ever lived in and I end up supporting Ohio with my tax money, I must be actively supporting my state's bigotry, too (even though I voted against the ban).

Shame on you for not moving out of Ohio. lol Seriously though, every state has problems. Staying and helping make change are better than running away from home.

[formergothardite]

There are too many issues in this world to concentrate on just one. The list is endless-child abuse, insurance that includes infertility treatments, the environment, the future of social security, health care, genetically modified foods, etc A better solution would be that everyone works on their own biggie while supporting others who are working on theirs. There is finally a Jesuit pope who is vocal about service to the poor and suffering. It's about time. I'm embracing it.

Would you support a religious organization that helped the poor and suffering while teaching racial discrimination? Is racial equality just a "thing" that isn't your hill to die on either? I would think most people wouldn't speak of a racist organization as being "good" even if they did go help the poor and suffering. Yet since it is "just" gay people, it is like this is no biggie. Which is why I said this thread shows how far we have to go. Until people realize how truly horrible teaching that people who are gay aren't equal to straight people is, things will never change.

[theologygeek]

Would you support a religious organization that helped the poor and suffering while teaching racial discrimination? Is racial equality just a "thing" that isn't your hill to die on either? I would think most people wouldn't speak of a racist organization as being "good" even if they did go help the poor and suffering. Yet since it is "just" gay people, it is like this is no biggie. Which is why I said this thread shows how far we have to go. Until people realize how truly horrible teaching that people who are gay aren't equal to straight people is, things will never change.

I never said "just" gay people. It's a spin that you are putting on it. "Until people realize how truly horrible..." can be said for many issues in the world. There are children dying in Africa from starvation. There are people right here in the US who go to bed hungry. Children are abused and have even died because of the Pearls. There are drug addicts living under bridges who are cold, scared, and suffering. People with mental illness are not getting the help they need once they become adults. If they hurt someone, they are deemed evil by society. Other people's causes are just as important as yours.

[OkToBeTakei]

Would you support a religious organization that helped the poor and suffering while teaching racial discrimination? Is racial equality just a "thing" that isn't your hill to die on either? I would think most people wouldn't speak of a racist organization as being "good" even if they did go help the poor and suffering. Yet since it is "just" gay people, it is like this is no biggie. Which is why I said this thread shows how far we have to go. Until people realize how truly horrible teaching that people who are gay aren't equal to straight people is, things will never change.

But your assumption is that everybody who is catholic hates gays and supports the church in it's teaching. Not the case really is it? Do you think every couple who sits in a catholic church is not using birth control? I suppose though that makes them shitty catholics as well as shitty human beings.

[Irishy]

Bleh bleh she can be all kinds of perfect, me? My fucking head is killing me and 15 for dinner tonight :lol:

Have to say in my gin induced haze the whole debate amused me. Not like anybody can defend x amount of million catholics. But point me to an evangelical gun toting everybody else is doing it wrong fundie and I'll own my lapsed status in my country that has legal abortion and is ok with gay marriage and laughs at bumper stickers. I don't have an issue with people finding comfort in religion. I don't. Gin is my god :lol:

Dinner for 15? Well I hope it's 15 fun people. If so, make sure you've got your party list on the iPod and ear plugs in the kiddo's ears.

[Diana]

I dont agree with many things about catholic church, but i dont think that because of that i should apostate or something, the catholic is the religion of my family and ancestors for centuries, is part of my culture and identity, of course i want to see changes in church, but i will not leave the catholic church to be baptized in other little ramdom church founded by a man only hundred of years ago, having to choose one of hundreds that exist, i prefer not having a religion at all than that. I like the feeling of belonging to the universal church founded by christ. i dont see why this makes me a shitty person. There are a lot of people in catholic church that live to serve others, like a lot of nuns that are working hard every day for the poor and ill, just like mother teresa,for me this is what christ teached to us, so they are shitty too because they belong to chatolic church even if they are doing a good work?

[OkToBeTakei]

Dinner for 15? Well I hope it's 15 fun people. If so, make sure you've got your party list on the iPod and ear plugs in the kiddo's ears.

:lol: Some family and friends. The same ones who last night fed me all the gin. So yes, should be more of the same and fun. Hair of the dog is a bit tempting to get me in the kitchen though!