Pope Francis shaking things up?

[Marilla-Cuthbert2013]

I'm wondering if the Cardinals got more than they bargained for when they chose him!

As for Pope Francis...he seems like a really good guy who subscribes to some pretty rotten beliefs (but come on guys, it's the Pope - he's not going to support same-sex marriage or start passing out condoms). He's doing his best to be humble and to include people, and I really do believe he means well. Time will tell of course - he has years to screw up - but I'm liking his gestures so far. Even gestures can mean something.

I agree!

I was really hoping that Cardinal Oswald Gracias (Bombay), I thought he would stand-up to the Vatican buearcracy and stop the Vatican's crackdown on the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, stop butting in to U.S. elections.

However, as someone who has been craving for a Pope who champions social justice, I find myself surprised at how much I like him. He is acting less like a Head of State, and seems to have a fierce pastoral dedication to those who need him the most (the poor, sick, imprisioned). I find it refreshing to have a Pope that will not be wearing red Prada shoes, whose ring is gold plated instead of pure gold, who thus far is resisting the trapings of the Vatican.

I never could understand why we ask our Priests and Nuns to take vows of poverty, and yet the Pope (and many Cardinals) do lot live in such humble homes.

Only time will tell what kind of Pope he will be, but if he is annoying my in-laws (who already believe that Jesuits are not REAL priests), then :lol: he is off to a great start!

[formergothardite]

Really good people don't teach discrimination. This pope isn't a really good guy. He might be less bad than others, but that doesn't make him good.

[Loveday]

I'm a....recovering Catholic...who has not practiced in many years, but when I read the bit quoted there, especially the part about making his own phone calls. That doesn't sound to me like someone spitting in the face of the papal office. Rather it sounds like a man, who has built relationships with the folks that were around him, his regular newsstand guy, his plumber, etc and rather than have his new staff make the calls for him, he wanted to "say goodbye" to those people himself because that's the kind of person he is. Religion, Office etc, notwithstanding.

Just because you are now the Pope doesn't mean you are no longer a human. The guy that was 2 weeks ago "just Jorge" is still in there and I think him remembering that might be a good thing, if it continues.

This is how I look at it as well.

However, as someone who has been craving for a Pope who champions social justice, I find myself surprised at how much I like him. He is acting less like a Head of State, and seems to have a fierce pastoral dedication to those who need him the most (the poor, sick, imprisioned). I find it refreshing to have a Pope that will not be wearing red Prada shoes, whose ring is gold plated instead of pure gold, who thus far is resisting the trapings of the Vatican.

According to several news articles in the last month or two, the red Prada shoe story is a myth. The pope's red shoes are indeed made specifically for him, but not by Prada, and apparently never were. ;)

[Irishy]

Well, when he says mass for and washes the feet of gays and trans-gendered people I might be inclined to be more impressed. Those should be things done for ALL humans.

He did this in 2001 when he visited an AIDS hospice.

It's interesting that lots of people think that any bad = all bad. I personally think there are shades of grey with everyone. There is no perfect pope or politician or even person. I admire any kind of progress and to say he's no better than Benedict is just ridiculous.

[valsa]

He did this in 2001 when he visited an AIDS hospice.

It's interesting that lots of people think that any bad = all bad.

No one is saying that. However, I think it is fair to say "significant bad" = "not good"

ETA: 2001 is a bit late in the game to assume "AIDS"="gay", by the by.

[theologygeek]

Because you can't help the poor and suffering without belonging to the Catholic Church? Because it's somehow okay to toss aside the struggles of gay and trans people because hey, to you, cisgender and hetero you, the poor are so much more important? Okay, then.

The nice thing about convictions is that it helps make the world a better place, because people act on their hills to die on. If everyone had the same conviction, there would be no change in the world. The trouble comes when people don't respect the convictions of others, and expect everyone to have the same conviction as they do-i.e. fundies Although I am in favor of gay marriage, it isn't one of my hills to die on. Service to the poor and suffering is, and it brings me joy that there is finally a pope who feels the same way I do about it.

[BravaAmica]

nope

i'm argentinian and if it were up to him, gays wouldn't be able to marry and adopt here and trans people wouldn't be able to legally change their names

Yep. It's a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Big deal. He doesn't wear the fancy clothes and washed women's feet. Those are PR moves, not actual changes that will do anyone any good.

Personally, I'd prefer it if he told all of us on Easter, "Well, the Catholic Church if Fucked Beyond All Recognition. So I'm shutting the whole shebang down." It's not like the church does any good in the world.

[Katiebug]

Rather it sounds like a man, who has built relationships with the folks that were around him, his regular newsstand guy, his plumber, etc and rather than have his new staff make the calls for him, he wanted to "say goodbye" to those people himself because that's the kind of person he is. Religion, Office etc, notwithstanding.

Yes. I'm not Catholic but he knows he won't be going back to Argentina to live, and it sounds like he wanted to make sure that people who he knew "back home" had that opportunity. By all accounts even as a cardinal/archbishop he was happy to live a pretty non-fancy lifestyle and liked to do things for himself.

Isn't there a cadre of nuns at the Vatican whose jobs are to basically be housekeepers and cooks for the Pope? They must be really shaken up by a guy who likes to pick up a phone and make a phone call now and then! He's definitely a marked contrast to Benedict in terms of the trappings of the office. I saw a pictorial comparison on a news website and there are pretty big differences between vestments and clerical apparel, and Francis has been much more minimalist in his choices in that regard. There's a lot of Vatican bureaucracy that Francis seems to be turning on its ear or outright stymieing and I think the attitude is refreshing. He's certainly big on the pastoral aspects of the office and of social justice/helping the poor and downtrodden. I wonder if the Cardinals got more than they bargained for... :D

It doesn't change the fact that he's not going to start marrying gays at St. Peter's and he's unlikely to turn around and tell Catholic women that the Pill is just fine. I know I say this as an outsider (an evil Lutheran :lol: ) and I mean no offense - but realistically this Pope was never going to be a huge shake 'em up kind of guy. Any man who would ascend to the College of Cardinals is going to express views in line with current Church doctrine or he'd never have been elevated anywhere near that level to begin with. The institutional inertia of the Roman Catholic Church is such that while celibacy for priests is likely on the way out and there may be female priests in my lifetime, I wouldn't be surprised if gay marriage still isn't allowed by their doctrine even 100 years from now.

[Coconut Flan]

I see celibacy for priests heading out the door first and then strict opposition to birth control going second.

[theologygeek]

No one is saying that. However, I think it is fair to say "significant bad" = "not good"

ETA: 2001 is a bit late in the game to assume "AIDS"="gay", by the by.

He's for civil unions, but he's not for gay marriage. Some people believe the biblical interpretation of marriage is between a man and a woman. I wouldn't expect a pope to believe otherwise. On another note, one thing I have to say about the Catholic Church is that even though the official stand is that homosexuality is a sin, they were there for gays who had AIDS when no other religious organization would go near them. When AIDS was rampant in NYC in the 80's, in my early twenties, I watched nuns cradle gay men in their arms, and gently change their dressing on skin wounds. There was a hospital called St. Clares. It was Cardinal John O'Connor of NYC who approved the AIDS unit. The then governor, a Republican, was the one who ordered the hospital closed down when it became too expensive to run and the nuns couldn't do it any more. The nuns then transferred everyone to St. Vincent's, another Catholic run hospital and treated gay AIDS patients with love when no one else would go near them.

[Stacie]

I think it's a really encouraging sign that 10 days into the job, The new pope is making some changes in the Catholic Church like including women in this ceremony.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/ ... et-washing

The Orthodox Christian Church doesn't believe that the Pope is any higher in ranking, or closer to God, than the highest ranking Bishop in our Church. That's a big part of why the Western Church broke off from the original Church to begin with, differences of opinion. Orthodox side stayed true to the original teachings, other side wanted to make changes. Lot more to it than that, but that's it in a nutshell.

I really like this guy though.....so far he seems very genuine, very for the people, and since he took St. Francis' name I'm really hoping he'll push for more fair and humane treatment of all animals & of the gay community. I know, to some there are bigger problems in the world than animals, but as far as I'm concerned, humans for the most part can speak for themselves and push for change. Kids and animals can't, and they get pushed under the rug. St. Francis is my favorite Saint...so pulling for this guy to make some positive changes.

[theologygeek]

Yep. It's a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Big deal. He doesn't wear the fancy clothes and washed women's feet. Those are PR moves, not actual changes that will do anyone any good.

Personally, I'd prefer it if he told all of us on Easter, "Well, the Catholic Church if Fucked Beyond All Recognition. So I'm shutting the whole shebang down." It's not like the church does any good in the world.

How do you know that those are PR moves? Do you know anything about the Jesuits? As for your last sentence, are you kidding me? I have problems with the Catholic Church and have not been to mass in years because of the priest scandals, but you don't know what you're talking about if you think that the Catholic Church does not do any good in the world.

[theologygeek]

The Orthodox Christian Church doesn't believe that the Pope is any higher in ranking, or closer to God, than the highest ranking Bishop in our Church. That's a big part of why the Western Church broke off from the original Church to begin with, differences of opinion. Orthodox side stayed true to the original teachings, other side wanted to make changes. Lot more to it than that, but that's it in a nutshell.

I really like this guy though.....so far he seems very genuine, very for the people, and since he took St. Francis' name I'm really hoping he'll push for more fair and humane treatment of all animals & of the gay community. I know, to some there are bigger problems in the world than animals, but as far as I'm concerned, humans for the most part can speak for themselves and push for change. Kids and animals can't, and they get pushed under the rug. St. Francis is my favorite Saint...so pulling for this guy to make some positive changes.

Did you hear about this? It was a nice story. http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2013/03/pope ... guide-dog/

[mausi]

...(snipped) I wonder if the Cardinals got more than they bargained for... :D

I sometimes wonder if the Cardinals didn't get exactly what they bargained for: a generally like-able (or at least more like-able) Pope after the turbulence of the simultaneously rigid and scandalous Benedict Era. They have to know the Church is losing members with every new abuse revelation. Now they have a Pope in place who says and does things that make him (and thus the Catholic Church) seem more human and humane. Yet, as others have noted, there is very little fear that he will make any drastic sweeping changes to the institution. And while not incredibly old, he is also not going to be lasting JPII number of years. To me it seems like they bargained for a shortish-term humble man who will help the Church gain/regain followers-- exactly what they need right now.

Or not. Maybe they are all sweating under their fancy robes. Who knows with that crew.

[yewchapel]

The Pope's not going to be for marriage equality in any of our lifetimes. If the Anglican church moves like a 'great and mighty tortoise', then the RCC moves at a glacial pace. However, slow progress is still progress and I think Pope Francis is doing some very encouraging things so far. He's only been in the job for less than a month for goodness' sakes! I am very encouraged by the positive and friendly relationship between Pope Francis and Justin Welby, the new Archbishop of Canterbury (who is for women bishops* and open to discussions on marriage equality).

*Both Welby and Rowan Williams are absolutely for women bishops but the Archbishop of Canterbury is not like the Pope and cannot veto the votes of Synod. Since Synod voted against women bishops in a democratic election, Rowan Williams was powerless to stop that decision.

[LadyFriend]

You couldn't pay me enough to return to the Catholic Church. The organization absolutely repulses me.

I do hope that this is heralding a more focused attention on social justice issues. I find hope in that and have always appreciated that aspect of the Church. Unfortunately, any amount of good-doing cannot come close to making up for the unnecessary harm they have imposed upon the world, imo.

[VooDooChild]

No one is saying that. However, I think it is fair to say "significant bad" = "not good"

ETA: 2001 is a bit late in the game to assume "AIDS"="gay", by the by.

^^ that. And I never said he was all bad.

I missed that bit about the AIDS hospice. Let me rephrase: If he continues to do what he did (I'm assuming some gays were included) in 2001, I might be inclined to be more impressed. Time will tell. There has been controversy about the papacy's stance on gays/gay marriage for years. I don't think two weeks of one seemingly good guy and one instance of mass and foot washing negates that.

[tabitha2]

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/ ... h_america/

I attend st. vincents... and yes,we are now Anglican. but at least st v allows girl acolytes... the episcopal church I went to as a child only allowed females to clean and wash the holy vessels. when any more was demanded of 'his' church, the old father ran off with the crucifix and formed his own church with much of the congregation.

[valsa]

The nice thing about convictions is that it helps make the world a better place, because people act on their hills to die on. If everyone had the same conviction, there would be no change in the world. The trouble comes when people don't respect the convictions of others, and expect everyone to have the same conviction as they do-i.e. fundies Although I am in favor of gay marriage, it isn't one of my hills to die on. Service to the poor and suffering is, and it brings me joy that there is finally a pope who feels the same way I do about it.

I don't expect you to die on the hill of gay marriage but you also shouldn't expect me not to judge you as a pretty shitty person if you support and belong to (or think you'll belong to) an institution that believes in discriminating against minorities- whether it be gays, women (though the CC has more than it's fair share of that going on to), or racial minorities. Though I do wonder if you'd still be overjoyed with the new pope if he decided, say, that black people weren't welcome in the church or that interracial marriage was the work of te devil.

He's for civil unions, but he's not for gay marriage.

He's for civil unions as a "lesser of two evils" if he could block legalization of gay marriage by doing so.

The nuns then transferred everyone to St. Vincent's, another Catholic run hospital and treated gay AIDS patients with love when no one else would go near them.

Yet how long did it take them (well, some of them) to approve of condom usage to prevent the spread of AIDS?

[yewchapel]

Tabitha, I was thinking 'hey ACNA have been in the US for ages' before I saw the date! :lol: ACNA still isn't in communion with Canterbury, right? To be honest, despite my disagreements with ACNA, if Sydney is still in communion with Canterbury I don't see why ACNA can't be.

[PennySycamore]

:lol: No. It's just an extreme to use. My optimistic cynicism would like to see it eventually. The condoms might just happen. Marriage for priests would be good.

If he makes it past the first month :P

Well, Luciano Albani, who was Pope John Paul I, sure did not make i past the first month. He was widely believed to have been fairly to very progressive. That did not sit well with traditionalists, but his undoing may have been his interest in investigating and reforming the Vatican Bank. He died suddenly of an apparent heart attack despite no history of heart disease. He was buried swiftly and there was no autopsy. There are some people who feel he was murdered.

[theologygeek]

I don't expect you to die on the hill of gay marriage but you also shouldn't expect me not to judge you as a pretty shitty person if you support and belong to (or think you'll belong to) an institution that believes in discriminating against minorities- whether it be gays, women (though the CC has more than it's fair share of that going on to), or racial minorities. Though I do wonder if you'd still be overjoyed with the new pope if he decided, say, that black people weren't welcome in the church or that interracial marriage was the work of te devil.?

I was just wondering if you think Muslims are pretty shitty people, because they belong to an institution that discriminates against women and gays.

[kitkat]

While I don't give the new Pope a pass on being a bigot, I do think that by putting the focus on helping the poor, instead of on maintaining the institutional power of the Catholic Church, he's moving the Church in a better direction. On the one hand, no, this isn't a papacy that will bring me back. On the other hand, by putting the focus on compassion and good works, he's making the possibility of reforming some of the more problematic teachings possible.

For example, he's said that being against abortion means that you have to be for single mothers. Although I'd like for him to acknowledge that in some cases, abortion is the morally correct choice, he is at least realizing that abortions happen for a reason, and that offering women better options will reduce the number of abortions. Is this enough? No. Of course not. But its a start.

[valsa]

I was just wondering if you think Muslims are pretty shitty people, because they belong to an institution that discriminates against women and gays.

There is no single "Muslim church" in the same way there is a "Catholic church" but for the Muslims who belong to their individual mosques that discriminate against women and gays- absolutely.

[mockingbird]

Yeah, I'm not impressed yet, but very, very cautiously hopeful.

The Catholic Church has a lot of problems. I'd love to see someone more progressive of course but if he manages to implement reform in even just one area (such as Vatican corruption) I would be happy because like someone else said it paves the way for future change.

I have a hard time wanting to go back to church because I dislike aligning myself with an organization that discriminates against many groups of people even if I think the rituals are beautiful, I believe in most of the other tenants of the faith, and I think church can be a good social support. I have thought about going to an Episcopalian church, but that's a big step for me compared to just not going to Catholic church.