Pope Francis shaking things up?

[kpmom]

But your assumption is that everybody who is catholic hates gays and supports the church in it's teaching. Not the case really is it? Do you think every couple who sits in a catholic church is not using birth control? I suppose though that makes them shitty catholics as well as shitty human beings.

The problem is though, if they are supporting their church, they are supporting what the Church believes.

[Boogalou]

I dont agree with many things about catholic church, but i dont think that because of that i should apostate or something, the catholic is the religion of my family and ancestors for centuries, is part of my culture and identity, of course i want to see changes in church, but i will not leave the catholic church to be baptized in other little ramdom church founded by a man only hundred of years ago, having to choose one of hundreds that exist, i prefer not having a religion at all than that. I like the feeling of belonging to the universal church founded by christ. i dont see why this makes me a shitty person. There are a lot of people in catholic church that live to serve others, like a lot of nuns that are working hard every day for the poor and ill, just like mother teresa,for me this is what christ teached to us, so they are shitty too because they belong to chatolic church even if they are doing a good work?

To the bolded: wow, just, wow. I recently read a book on the history of the papacy. I'll just say the history of the early church is very interesting but it leads me to believe the Catholic Church was not founded by Christ but by men. Just my opinion of course.

Just editing to adding to that: it comes across as a little dismissive to say that your church was founded by Jesus and everyone else is following some man made, made up religion. Maybe you didn't mean it like that but it's how it is coming across to me.

[OkToBeTakei]

The problem is though, if they are supporting their church, they are supporting what the Church believes.

I disagree. I don't think it is as easy or as cut and dried as that. It is though when you want to use it as an argument to beat up ALL catholics.

[BravaAmica]

The problem is though, if they are supporting their church, they are supporting what the Church believes.

QFT

If one chooses to worship in a Catholic Church, one must also accept that he or she is supporting an organization that makes excuses for child rape. And if one can overlook that, and make excuses for it, "Oh, we're not all like that" or "I'm Catholic but..." well, cognitive dissonance much?

[kpmom]

I disagree. I don't think it is as easy or as cut and dried as that. It is though when you want to use it as an argument to beat up ALL catholics.

No, I'm not looking to beat up Catholics, but wouldn't you agree if you belong to an organization, and support it with your money, you are, for all intents and purposes, supporting what that organization stands for?

[mockingbird]

No, I'm not looking to beat up Catholics, but wouldn't you agree if you belong to an organization, and support it with your money, you are, for all intents and purposes, supporting what that organization stands for?

While I don't think I can agree this makes someone a "bad person" - this is exactly why I am conflicted about continuing to go to Catholic church, because I don't support all of their beliefs.

FWIW though most of the Catholics I know are pretty liberal in terms of social issues, and use birth control. At least in the US I think there is a HUGE disconnect in terms of what people actually believe, and what the church preaches.

[OkToBeTakei]

No, I'm not looking to beat up Catholics, but wouldn't you agree if you belong to an organization, and support it with your money, you are, for all intents and purposes, supporting what that organization stands for?

All the money I give to SCIAF is doing that? Shit.

[kpmom]

While I don't think I can agree this makes someone a "bad person" - this is exactly why I am conflicted about continuing to go to Catholic church, because I don't support all of their beliefs.

FWIW though most of the Catholics I know are pretty liberal in terms of social issues, and use birth control. At least in the US I think there is a HUGE disconnect in terms of what people actually believe, and what the church preaches.

I agree, it doesn't make someone "a bad person", and I (a former Catholic), do understand the conflict you mentioned.

But take religion out of it for a minute. Can you picture yourself belonging to a secular organization, supporting it with your money, but disagreeing with some very major points that organization believes in?

I found I couldn't support the Catholic church, and now attend an Episcopal church. But that's not for everyone, I realize.

[Mama Mia]

No, I'm not looking to beat up Catholics, but wouldn't you agree if you belong to an organization, and support it with your money, you are, for all intents and purposes, supporting what that organization stands for?

I'm curious about the opinion of the anti-Catholics regarding Catholic churches that actively support the inclusion of glbt members, and promote a philosophy of inclusion ? I found this website on a quick search, which lists some of the parishes in the U.S. that do this ( and I know it isn't a complete list because it missed a local parish which I know is actively inclusive ) newwaysministry.org

What I, personally, like about Catholic Social Justice is that it tends to be very boots on the ground addressing immediate need-- feeding and sheltering people regardless of their beliefs and without demanding that they meet a zillion eligibility requirements -- which isn't something you get from government run programs - or most secular charities that I have seen. Locally, they are also very active in immigration issues.

Also, I fell down an internet rabbit hole this morning somehow and discovered that in the U.K. the royal family can't marry Catholics if they want to remain in line to the throne --- wow, I can't believe that still exists. I was really shocked ! :shock: It keeps surprising me how much church and state are intertwined in countries that seem to be so much more secular than the U.S.

[TheLurkingFrumper]

QFT

If one chooses to worship in a Catholic Church, one must also accept that he or she is supporting an organization that makes excuses for child rape. And if one can overlook that, and make excuses for it, "Oh, we're not all like that" or "I'm Catholic but..." well, cognitive dissonance much?

Exactly! If you research the statistics about 5% of priests sexually abuse children. Also, about 10% of teachers sexually abuse children. This, of course, is why the anti-Catholic FJer's are also against supporting public schools and are working to get their tax dollars back. Because cover ups never happen in any public institution but the the Catholic Church.

[fundiefun]

Exactly! If you research the statistics about 5% of priests sexually abuse children. Also, about 10% of teachers sexually abuse children. This, of course, is why the anti-Catholic FJer's are also against supporting public schools and are working to get their tax dollars back. Because cover ups never happen in any public institution but the the Catholic Church.

The abuse is also rampant in the IFB and I wonder how many don't come forward due to fundie beliefs and having nowhere to go since it would put a park on their family's image.

[ShesCrafty]

Exactly! If you research the statistics about 5% of priests sexually abuse children. Also, about 10% of teachers sexually abuse children. This, of course, is why the anti-Catholic FJer's are also against supporting public schools and are working to get their tax dollars back. Because cover ups never happen in any public institution but the the Catholic Church.

The statistic about teachers is incorrect. It's not 10% of teachers abuse, it's that 10% of school children are abused (which is horrible and unacceptable, of course). I just hate to see the teacher bashing that goes on on FJ sometimes and misquoting statistics to make it look like 1 in 10 teachers are abusive doesn't doesn't help. I realize you (TheLurkingFrumper) probably just read the statistic wrong but I wanted to make the correction.

[Diana]

To the bolded: wow, just, wow. I recently read a book on the history of the papacy. I'll just say the history of the early church is very interesting but it leads me to believe the Catholic Church was not founded by Christ but by men. Just my opinion of course.

Just editing to adding to that: it comes across as a little dismissive to say that your church was founded by Jesus and everyone else is following some man made, made up religion. Maybe you didn't mean it like that but it's how it is coming across to me.

I was just trying to explain that being catholic is not only a mather of personal beliefs or choosing the church that you want according what you believe in every aspect of theology, and if you dont like any of the existing churches founding your own. Of course i didnt want to dismiss the people that dont believe in the universal church(jesus and the apostles were only men too), just trying to explain that if you consider the church like an historic institution founded by christ and with all the cultural influence, is not that easy to change to another christian church like no big deal,so is unfair to call shitty people for that.

[OkToBeTakei]

I agree, it doesn't make someone "a bad person", and I (a former Catholic), do understand the conflict you mentioned.

But take religion out of it for a minute. Can you picture yourself belonging to a secular organization, supporting it with your money, but disagreeing with some very major points that organization believes in?

I found I couldn't support the Catholic church, and now attend an Episcopal church. But that's not for everyone, I realize.

Why yes. The UK government.

All quips aside. I admire your conviction and the change you made based on your beliefs. I think there are very many who 'just go along with it,' without really questioning that which is wrong. The purpose of this thread was an optimistic hope that change will happen. Leaving will not change it, ignoring it will not change it. I don't know what will change it. But I certainly think calling all catholics shitty human beings will most certainly not change it. (not you kpmom.)

[Irishy]

I think that historically, the celibate career attracted many paedophiles and sexual predators. Not only because of easy access to children but because these people simply had no interest in or attraction to adult women or men. Therefore, why not become a priest or a brother? That is why I am hoping celibacy is one of the next things to go in the Catholic Church. The organisation can change for the better. Abandoning ship would be quite unhelpful if you have a glimmer of hope (which I think we may have now).

[Irishy]

Eh, should you not be peeling spuds and ladling gin down your neck?

[OkToBeTakei]

Eh, should you not be peeling spuds and ladling gin down your neck?

:lol: Cider tonight. Making chilli so no biggie. I made cornbread. IT CRACKED :lol:

Just 4 dips and nachos to do.

[kpmom]

:lol: Cider tonight. Making chilli so no biggie. I made cornbread. IT CRACKED :lol:

Just 4 dips and nachos to do.

Oh wow. All this and gin hard cider too? Can I come to your house for dinner?

[Palimpsest]

To the bolded: wow, just, wow. I recently read a book on the history of the papacy. I'll just say the history of the early church is very interesting but it leads me to believe the Catholic Church was not founded by Christ but by men. Just my opinion of course.

Just editing to adding to that: it comes across as a little dismissive to say that your church was founded by Jesus and everyone else is following some man made, made up religion. Maybe you didn't mean it like that but it's how it is coming across to me.

I'm going to try to cut Diana a little slack because I get the impression that English is not her first language. Perhaps she doesn't realize how bloody arrogant and dismissive she sounded. :?

Frankly, I think you have to separate what the Catholic Church on the ground actually does in good works, from the out of date teachings, preachings, directives and encyclicals from the Vatican. The Vatican is far more conservative than the Catholic Church in the US -- and in many other countries. Unless it lightens up and gets with the program I think there will be a schism.

There are clear indications of the Vatican trying to clamp down on "errant" Catholic orders and incentives in the US. Think Roy Bourgeois and Maryknoll. Maryknoll was being pressured from above for years to excommunicate him, and only recently gave in to Vatican demands. How many priests on the ground these days actually follow the directives of Humanae Vita and get tough with communicant catholics using contraception? The Vatican under the papacies of John Paul II and Bennedict was also far less interested in Social Justice issues than most Catholic Churches, religious orders and missions.

I think they (the Cardinals) know there is a risk of a schism, or at the very least massive loss of the Faithful from the west (but perhaps not the ultra-conservative African nations) unless they clean up their act. Thus the choice of Francis with his "humble" approach and publicized rejection of Papal trappings and luxuries. It's an attempt to humanize the Vatican in the eyes of the world after the disaster that was Ratzinger and all his baggage. Francis is still a genuine conservative though. Make no mistake.

The Vatican hierarchy is pretty much stuck in the 60s in its attitudes to women, homosexuality, contraception and abortion. It is probably responsible for countless deaths through the world from AIDS because of resisting condom use. As to Mother Teresa. That woman routinely denied pain control to people under her care so they could "offer their suffering up to God." Give me strength. I find that sadistic.

[OkToBeTakei]

Oh wow. All this and gin hard cider too? Can I come to your house for dinner?

Absolutely. You'll need to be here in 45 minutes though :lol:

[Palimpsest]

...snipped ...

Also, I fell down an internet rabbit hole this morning somehow and discovered that in the U.K. the royal family can't marry Catholics if they want to remain in line to the throne --- wow, I can't believe that still exists. I was really shocked ! :shock: It keeps surprising me how much church and state are intertwined in countries that seem to be so much more secular than the U.S.

Your source was out-dated. The ban was modified in 2011. http://www.catholicculture.org/news/hea ... ryid=12211

A Royal can now marry a Catholic, but a Catholic still can't become the actual Monarch. The Queen (King) is still titular Head of the Church of England. So a Catholic marrying an heir in-line to the throne would have to agree to bring any offspring up C of E, I suppose. Against Vatican rules if you want a dispensation . . .

[Mama Mia]

Your source was out-dated. The ban was modified in 2011. http://www.catholicculture.org/news/hea ... ryid=12211

A Royal can now marry a Catholic, but a Catholic still can't become the actual Monarch. The Queen (King) is still titular Head of the Church of England. So a Catholic marrying an heir in-line to the throne would have to agree to bring any offspring up C of E, I suppose. Against Vatican rules if you want a dispensation . . .

Someone should tell the royal.gov.uk - site, that's where I somehow (oddly) ended up

[kpmom]

Absolutely. You'll need to be here in 45 minutes though :lol:

Damn, where are those Star Trek teleportation machines when you need them?

[FundieBunny]

I'm one of the "lucky ones" :roll: that was raised in a fundie (and I DO mean fundie!) Catholic family. Die-hard, "we want the Latin Mass back," Blue Army-joining, stereotype-confirming Catholic fundie. I made my First Communion at a Papal Mass. It was terrifying for someone like me who didn't toe the party line and wanted out. The threats against my freedom and things I cherished in life were very real. There was no leaving the herd. The only thing that got me out was moving hours away from my family's home town (a good 75% still lived/lives in one town) and my Mom, the matriarch of all this, having a massive stroke and deciding she didn't care what I did anymore. Growing up like this was why I joined this board; I may not have come from a Bible Belt fundie family but I totally get what everyone went through, just from a different religion.

That said...even my Mom, as fundie as it got, revealed to me that on her wedding day she was stopped by the priest and told that she had to sign a paper saying she promised to have children and raise them Catholic. This was back in the 60s; she went through the "Pre-Cana" rigamarole but for some reason this priest decided to corner my Mom on her wedding day about this. My Mom did not want kids, which she wasn't telling anyone in her family about. She said no and the priest told her that he wouldn't marry her if she didn't sign it. So she did. She was terribly bitter about it (ironic considering she then tried to take my own freedom of what to do with my life away from me and force me into religious work). She also was pro-choice and told me that openly, but never told anyone else. I made the mistake of mentioning I wasn't against abortion to my uncle and I thought he would wring my neck. I'm not surprised she didn't tell anyone.

I made the decision to leave for many reasons but a big one is not being associated with a group that, despite having nice people and people that didn't agree with the wrong things going on, still harbored criminals and supported a way of life that I did not agree with. Because I was raised so hardcore Catholic I still find myself drawn to certain things in the church for "old times' sake" and I'll admit I went into an old childhood church and did a quiet St Jude novena to myself when my Dad was in the hospital and my panic over it was at epic levels. My husband was also raised Catholic and I'm glad I'm able to joke about it all with him. It's definitely a part of who I am just because of how I was raised, but I am not a part of it anymore and won't ever be again. I don't want to be associated with a group of people that enforce beliefs that I find repugnant, but I'm not going to be an asshole to someone if they tell me they are still Catholic.

The Pope may come out and do Gangnam Style and post LOL cats on his Twitter, tell everyone to call him That Guy With The Pope Hat and be the most laid-back Pope in the world but he still supports a way of life that I don't agree with and never will. Don't know if I'll ever see the day that women and gays get a fair shake from the church and I'm not holding my breath for it, but even if it did, no thanks, not going back. I don't believe in God and religions associated with God/Jesus to begin with. Never did to be honest but pretended I did to skirt bodily harm. :shhh:

[Irishy]

:lol: Cider tonight. Making chilli so no biggie. I made cornbread. IT CRACKED :lol:

Just 4 dips and nachos to do.

Yum. Beer for me though. Cider makes me a pole dancer slash karaoke star.