Explaining The Southern USA To NonSoutherners

[msgovernment]

Whoo! First post!

So Many Lies, Virginia is and isn't the south. I grew up in northern Virginia (Fairfax County, Alexandria, Arlington, etc) and it NoVa is most definitely not southern. I say "y'all," went to Cotillion, and that's about it. A few remnants here and there, but it's pretty generically mid-Atlantic. The southern half of the state (and the western) is definitely in the South, to the point where, when I was in high school and went to Christiansburg for the All-State Choir, there was definitely some side-eyeing between the kids from NoVa and the kids from the rest of the state.

And I haven't even gotten into the differences between the "southernness" of the big cities--Richmond, VA Beach, Newport News--and the "southernness" of the rural and mountain areas.

My 2c.

[kinseylimpfy]

southerners also love college football. roll tide!

[Maia68]

Lol, Roll Tide, Kinseylimpfy! It's been a fun few years, hasn't it?

[So Many Lies]

Whoo! First post!

So Many Lies, Virginia is and isn't the south. I grew up in northern Virginia (Fairfax County, Alexandria, Arlington, etc) and it NoVa is most definitely not southern. I say "y'all," went to Cotillion, and that's about it. A few remnants here and there, but it's pretty generically mid-Atlantic. The southern half of the state (and the western) is definitely in the South, to the point where, when I was in high school and went to Christiansburg for the All-State Choir, there was definitely some side-eyeing between the kids from NoVa and the kids from the rest of the state.

And I haven't even gotten into the differences between the "southernness" of the big cities--Richmond, VA Beach, Newport News--and the "southernness" of the rural and mountain areas.

My 2c.

Thanks I appreciate it.

[Mama Mia]

Out of curiosity - what do Southerners consider "The South" ? Is it pretty cut and dried ? I've noticed sometimes states I would think of as mid-western - are described as Southern - and vice versa. I would imagine there is some blending/blurring with the border states ?

Just noticed the "mid-atlantic" designation ? What area is that ?

Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant - my family has lived on the west coast forever so I don't even have relatives experiences to draw on.

[pboreos]

I was born and raised in NJ and have lived in the land of Paula Deen for the last decade. It's been interesting, and most of the time I love it, but there are differences, and things I didn't expect.

There isn't nearly as much diversity as there was when I lived "up north." Down here for the most part you are black or white, with very few hispanics and asians. The food also isn't diverse- Southerners are proud of their food, and it's good, but there is also great food elsewhere. I grew up in a heavily Jewish/Italian area, and I would kill for a decent pizza.

I was really surprised at the way people were after a lifetime of hearing about how polite and well mannered Southerners are. Yes, they call me ma'am (which I hate), but it's not unusual for someone to stop mid conversation and say "you're not from here, are you?" I've had more doors let go in my face than I ever did when I was up north, yet when we go back to visit we get tons of comments asking how we can stand to be up there with all the rude people.

The other thing is that it's a very red state, and it's really hard to be a liberal down here. There's a lot of push back if you aren't just like everyone else. You either argue politics a lot or just smile and nod letting people think you agree with them.

[muffynbear]

Out of curiosity - what do Southerners consider "The South" ? Is it pretty cut and dried ? I've noticed sometimes states I would think of as mid-western - are described as Southern - and vice versa. I would imagine there is some blending/blurring with the border states ?

Just noticed the "mid-atlantic" designation ? What area is that ?

Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant - my family has lived on the west coast forever so I don't even have relatives experiences to draw on.

Mid Atlantic is NY, NJ, PA, MD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

South to me is WV , VA, FL, KY, GA, MS, TN, NC, SC, LA, AR, OK, TX. Some would disagree that TX is southern, but as a former Texan , culturally it is a very southern state.

[grateful1230]

southerners also love college football. roll tide!

The tide needs to roll on.. go cocks!

We did get snow that is still sticking. Three very loud and happy kids are having a great time round here :)

[crawfishgirl]

There isn't nearly as much diversity as there was when I lived "up north." Down here for the most part you are black or white, with very few hispanics and asians. The food also isn't diverse- Southerners are proud of their food, and it's good, but there is also great food elsewhere. I grew up in a heavily Jewish/Italian area, and I would kill for a decent pizza.

I think it depends on where in the south you live. The states on the 'western' side of the south do have a high hispanic and asian population, especially TX, and LA's hispanic population has significantly increased, especially since Katrina - many hispanic workers went there to help with rebuilding. My daughters' school is predominately hispanic, and the asian percentage is similar to the white percentage.

I think it is also dependent on whether you live in a larger city or a more rural area. I currently live in a nice neighborhood in a large TX city, and there are asians, hispanics, african-americans, and whites on my street, though overall for the entire neighborhood, I'd say it leans towards being predominately asian and white.

[meda]

Mid Atlantic is NY, NJ, PA, MD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

South to me is WV , VA, FL, KY, GA, MS, TN, NC, SC, LA, AR, OK, TX. Some would disagree that TX is southern, but as a former Texan , culturally it is a very southern state.

I wouldn't include NY in the Mid Atlantic designation, unless you are talking about the greater metro area. If you look at the whole state, the northern part is far more New England in location and character.

[debrand]

Out of curiosity - what do Southerners consider "The South" ? Is it pretty cut and dried ? I've noticed sometimes states I would think of as mid-western - are described as Southern - and vice versa. I would imagine there is some blending/blurring with the border states ?

Just noticed the "mid-atlantic" designation ? What area is that ?

Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant - my family has lived on the west coast forever so I don't even have relatives experiences to draw on.

If the state for the confederacy during the Civil War, I would consider it southern. However, I once asked a woman with a very interesting accent where she was from. She told me that she was southern. Surprised because her accent did not sound southern, I asked what her home state was. Oklahoma was the response. I don't consider Oklahoma to be southern. Perhaps she meant the southwest or the southern portion of Oklahoma but I was in a hurry and didn't get to ask her.

NC is southern with a lot of crazy, right wing individuals however, I believe that my state is slowly changing.

[debrand]

ersity as there was when I lived "up north." Down here for the most part you are black or white, with very few hispanics and asians.

Some of these posts make me realize how lucky I am to have grown up near a military base. The diversity that I experienced is apparently not common throughout the south.

I was really surprised at the way people were after a lifetime of hearing about how polite and well mannered Southerners are. Yes, they call me ma'am (which I hate), but it's not unusual for someone to stop mid conversation and say "you're not from here, are you?"

And I bet that a lot of time, it sounds as if they are accusing you of being a space alien. Sometimes southerners make it sound as if there is THE SOUTH and then there is the rest of the world.

The other thing is that it's a very red state, and it's really hard to be a liberal down here. There's a lot of push back if you aren't just like everyone else. You either argue politics a lot or just smile and nod letting people think you agree with them.

People get very angry when others disagree with them. It can be a bit frightening to have a previously polite person become threateningly angry over something that you consider trivial.

[justlurking]

I'm obviously from N.J, but I can't tell N.J accents apart from other American accents besides some southern accents. Especially if I watch something on the internet/T.V. Just can't tell the difference.

I'm from NJ as well and ITA. I'd also like to add that it really irritates me when people stereotype that we Jerseyans pronounce our state name as "New Joisey". I'm 31, have lived in this state all my life, and have NEVER heard a fellow Jerseyan pronounce it in such a way.

[msgovernment]

Late to the Mid-Atlantic party, but oh well.

Virginia is technically south of the Mason-Dixon line, but the proximity of the northern part to DC has really made it more akin to Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey, etc in terms of atmosphere/politics, much like the metro part of New York. This whole change, however, has really come about in the past 50 years....my dad was a military brat in northern Virginia in the '50s, and much of the area was rural then. Things do change--the area's even gotten less southern since I moved to the midwest 16 years ago.

[Conuly]

I'm from NJ as well and ITA. I'd also like to add that it really irritates me when people stereotype that we Jerseyans pronounce our state name as "New Joisey". I'm 31, have lived in this state all my life, and have NEVER heard a fellow Jerseyan pronounce it in such a way.

That uses to be a distinct marker of the NYC accent, swapping the er and oi sounds in words. You can hear it if you watch old episodes of All in the Family some time, and Archie refers to the terlet. That was the actor's honest accent.

It's true that the NYC accent and NJ accents overlap considerably, especially in parts of New Jersey which are heavily populated by people leaving the city, but as near as I can tell that particular pronunciation has been on the decline for at least the past few generations. Sometimes it takes the media a while to catch on. :roll:

[Arete]

I wouldn't include NY in the Mid Atlantic designation, unless you are talking about the greater metro area. If you look at the whole state, the northern part is far more New England in location and character.

I have lived in NJ all my life, and I don't know a single person here who considers themselves part of the mid-Atlantic. Native NJans consider themselves northerners, which is not the same thing as a New Englander. North-South is basically divided up on which side of the Civil War the state was on, mid-Atlantic is more of a weather designation than anything else. I would consider MD a mid-Atlantic state and PA as generically part of the North or the beginning of the midwest at its western-most border.

The only people who think people from New Jersey pronounce the state as "New Joisey" are the ones who have never been out of the five bouroughs of NYC.

[Librul]

If the state for the confederacy during the Civil War, I would consider it southern. However, I once asked a woman with a very interesting accent where she was from. She told me that she was southern. Surprised because her accent did not sound southern, I asked what her home state was. Oklahoma was the response. I don't consider Oklahoma to be southern. Perhaps she meant the southwest or the southern portion of Oklahoma but I was in a hurry and didn't get to ask her.

NC is southern with a lot of crazy, right wing individuals however, I believe that my state is slowly changing.

AGREED. Grew up in Oklahoma. It is not southern, although there are some similarities. Southern Plains states are not Deep South. Oklahoma wasn't even a state during the Civil War, so doesn't have that heritage. Its history with the land run, Native American, oil industry, ranching, dust bowl, etc just gives it a very different history, outlook, etc. It is conservative, Bible Belt, lots of racist attitudes, but more western and plains in orientation.

[muffynbear]

I have lived in NJ all my life, and I don't know a single person here who considers themselves part of the mid-Atlantic. Native NJans consider themselves northerners, which is not the same thing as a New Englander. North-South is basically divided up on which side of the Civil War the state was on, mid-Atlantic is more of a weather designation than anything else. I would consider MD a mid-Atlantic state and PA as generically part of the North or the beginning of the midwest at its western-most border.

The only people who think people from New Jersey pronounce the state as "New Joisey" are the ones who have never been out of the five bouroughs of NYC.

Yes, NY and NJ are northern. If I were a New Yorker, I wouldn't say "I'm part of the Mid-Atlantic." I would say "I'm a Northerner". But they are refererd to as Mid-Atlantic states. I'm simply referencing what my history professor explained to me in college. New England is northern but it is a realm within the northern region of the northern states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_states

I've lived in New England and upstate NY and I don't consider New York to resemble New England at all. Just my opinion. YMMV.

[pboreos]

Some of these posts make me realize how lucky I am to have grown up near a military base. The diversity that I experienced is apparently not common throughout the south.

And I bet that a lot of time, it sounds as if they are accusing you of being a space alien. Sometimes southerners make it sound as if there is THE SOUTH and then there is the rest of the world.

People get very angry when others disagree with them. It can be a bit frightening to have a previously polite person become threateningly angry over something that you consider trivial.

We live GA, so, I can totally see how other parts of the South would be more diverse.

What I don't understand is how people can't see that it would be more polite to ask where you are from, rather than just stating that you aren't from there.

The politics are crazy. Someone offered to pack us and drive us back to where we were from, though I don't remember if it was over being liberal or gay rights. Not everyone is like that, thankfully, but you are clearly a liberal island. Instead of trying to understand why you feel the way you do, most people just seem to say you're wrong, which is odd to me, I don't agree with a lot of their positions, but I want to understand them, or at least see why they hold them.

[cenarose]

The South is huge. It is frickin' huge and there is a rainbow of different experiences. I grew up in Southwest Central Texas, eating biscuits 'n' gravy and fried okra and speaking with an impressive drawl, and also eating enchiladas and breakfast tacos and speaking Spanish. The town near where I grew up was roughly 85% Hispanic so people occasionally did a double take when they saw how white I was. Our schools actually had "reverse affirmative action" where each class had to have at least one white kid.

There are things I adore about the specific culture in which I grew up, but those things aren't necessarily common across the entire South, because again: Huge place, tons of different cultures and subcultures.

We were expected to be polite and friendly (and in our case, it was definitely meant to show respect to the person to whom you were speaking). We were taught that you give away absolutely anything you can to someone in need. (My family has a long history of helping out illegal immigrants in trouble—though I grew up profoundly poor, we gave away food, blankets and clothes, and several times offered shelter for the night.) Some of the food was truly incredible, which I think was partly because of the fusion of Southern and Mexican cooking. Spending time with loved ones was held up as one of the greatest things in life, and hanging out on the front porch telling stories was the usual pastime. Speaking of stories, my family, and the other families around us, had a truly beautiful tradition of oral storytelling, with stories passed down four and five and six generations. I know stories, vivid and filled with personal details, about my ancestors who emigrated to Texas from North Carolina in the early 1800s. We were taught a strong work ethic, but encouraged to be compassionate toward those who, for whatever reason (including mental illness), couldn't work.

If you look up the Wikipedia article on Texan English, you'll see some of the features of the dialect that serve to prevent a speaker from seeming arrogant. Being laid-back is a high cultural value, and people very rarely say anything without indicating that it's just their personal opinion and they could be wrong. (In linguistic terms this is called "conditional syntax").

Negatives? Yes, there are plenty. Anti-intellectualism (though this varied from person to person, and is changing; more and more people go to college). Racism (though this, too, is not universal and is changing with my generation). A tendency toward lack of organization and bad management of resources, which from what I've seen is more of a "redneck" (rural lower class) trait than a specifically Southern one; and again, it varies by family and personality. (I've always been obsessively organized and I grew up rural lower class in Texas.) Clannishness (really varies by family—mine wasn't, some others nearby were). Fair amount of alcoholism and drug use, but I've lived worse places for that.

People in my area honestly weren't as religious as you might expect. Most might say they were Christian but didn't take it very seriously, we had a Muslim family of Iraqi descent who were pillars of the community, and my dad was accepted and treated well as an atheist. (He converted to Christianity but not until he was in his 40s.) I can think of two different gay couples who were well liked in the small town near where I grew up, and when I was a teenager, an out gay man was elected as mayor.

Tl;dr: The South is huge. My experience was varied but overall more positive than anything else. Others might have had very different experiences. Because the South is huge. And it has tons of different cultures and dialects.

[Arete]

Yes, NY and NJ are northern. If I were a New Yorker, I wouldn't say "I'm part of the Mid-Atlantic." I would say "I'm a Northerner". But they are refererd to as Mid-Atlantic states. I'm simply referencing what my history professor explained to me in college. New England is northern but it is a realm within the northern region of the northern states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_states

I've lived in New England and upstate NY and I don't consider New York to resemble New England at all. Just my opinion. YMMV.

Ah, thank you for the link. :) It makes more sense when it is explained that mid Atlantic is a term encompassing certain northern states, together with VA, MD, and DC. The port economies of NY, NJ, and PA together with their immigrants from southern and eastern Europe do give them a culture that is distinct from New England. Also, they did not start off with Puritan settlements as a lot of New England did.

[Arete]

I know Texas and "the South" have a lot of overlapping culture and history, but to an outsider like me, Texans are distinctly different from people living in states that were part of the antebellum South. I know I'm not explaining this particularly well, but I find Texans to be a lot more "no nonsense" and "western" in terms of a cultural orientation. Just my particular observation, mileage varies.

[Kitty]

Whoo! First post!

So Many Lies, Virginia is and isn't the south. I grew up in northern Virginia (Fairfax County, Alexandria, Arlington, etc) and it NoVa is most definitely not southern. I say "y'all," went to Cotillion, and that's about it. A few remnants here and there, but it's pretty generically mid-Atlantic. The southern half of the state (and the western) is definitely in the South, to the point where, when I was in high school and went to Christiansburg for the All-State Choir, there was definitely some side-eyeing between the kids from NoVa and the kids from the rest of the state.

And I haven't even gotten into the differences between the "southernness" of the big cities--Richmond, VA Beach, Newport News--and the "southernness" of the rural and mountain areas.

My 2c.

I've actually lived around VA Beach for 15 years. It's not as southern as anywhere in North Carolina, that's for sure, or anywhere else in Virginia. You'll see a few Confederate flags fly there and in Chesapeake, but cross the border and you're somewhere very different. Virginia Beach is actually more like a county (as are Chesapeake and Suffolk) and has rural parts, but they're still not as rural as the town I live in now (in VA) or where I grew up in NC. It's still one of the bluer parts of the state, though.

It's to the point where whenever they say something about how 'southern' Hampton Roads is I get really, really confused, because to me, it's not that southern at all. The south is not very racially diverse unless you're in a large city- since I grew up near Oceana, there is quite a bit of diversity most people wouldn't find in the rest of the South. I think though that people, even those of us who have lived in the South for a long time, tend to equate "southern-ness" with "living in a rural community somewhere in the southeastern United States." BTW, Oklahoma is not Southern. The South is really the southeast.

My view of the South has been tainted by being trapped in a rural town that I absolutely hated (and still do) for so long, but I really do miss North Carolina. Cenarose's description of Texas isn't that far off from NC culture. People are expected to be laid back there as well. On the other hand, they buy way too much into the whole 'rugged individualism' thing, and yes it does result in crazy Teapublicans and lolbertarians getting elected into the state government. If you're a Democrat, you're only welcome in the major cities like Raleigh, Durham, Charlotte, Asheville, and maybe Wilmington. And the Outer Banks, oddly enough. It's weird, I grew up right next to the OBX but that's actually a different county than where I was trapped. So it's quite blue and surrounded by lots and lots of red. The Outer Banks really are quite nice, but locals really don't like tourists at all (because tourists are fucking morons who don't know how to drive :evil: ). Some of it comes from the disdain for the North, the rest is because of the awful traffic, crowded beaches, and the nearest stores quickly going out of stock on needed items that people don't want to go to Virginia for (yes, where I lived, if you wanted anything other than groceries and dollar-store crap, you had to go to Virginia)... and the tourists acting like the locals don't exist. That's why we dubbed them "tourons." And if you dare go under 55 on the Kitty Hawk bridge, you will be flayed alive on Facebook and any other local online outlet.

Wilmington was very different (and a very nice change) but not as redneckish as rural towns are. You're still expected to be laid back, but considering it's home to a pretty decent-sized university, anti-intellectualism is not tolerated. People are very kind and polite there, and the South is celebrated as something other than a region that tried to become its own country and failed, where everyone is 'country' and has tastes you'd expect a (stereo)typical redneck to have. It's... different. I really have trouble describing how different it is. It's Southern, and very proud of it, but you don't see parking lots full of jacked-up pickup trucks covered in Confederate paraphernalia. Most people say "y'all". Most people are quite religious and traditional. Gah. I need to stop now, because I'm really beginning to miss NC. I've been in a nostalgic mood for it all day. I'm in one of the "southern" parts of VA and it's just. not. the. same. :(

[muffynbear]

I know Texas and "the South" have a lot of overlapping culture and history, but to an outsider like me, Texans are distinctly different from people living in states that were part of the antebellum South. I know I'm not explaining this particularly well, but I find Texans to be a lot more "no nonsense" and "western" in terms of a cultural orientation. Just my particular observation, mileage varies.

As a former Texan, I can see your point of view. Texans have that saying of "Don't Mess With Texas" and that attitude is prevalent. I consider it southwestern, as it has qualities of both the south and the west. The southern accents and mannerism "Yes, m'am" and all that, but the western style of dress and attitude.

[cenarose]

I know Texas and "the South" have a lot of overlapping culture and history, but to an outsider like me, Texans are distinctly different from people living in states that were part of the antebellum South. I know I'm not explaining this particularly well, but I find Texans to be a lot more "no nonsense" and "western" in terms of a cultural orientation. Just my particular observation, mileage varies.

As a Texan I do call myself a Southerner, for a couple of reasons: 1) Texas was a Confederate State and 2) at least among the ones I've known, Texans absolutely unequivocally consider themselves part of the South. (And remember, Texas is a huge place that itself has different dialects and subcultures--people from East Texas are much more Deep South in accent and culture than people from West Texas.) Texas is definitely different from the former antebellum South, but again, the South includes a lot of different subcultures beyond just those two, and I think it's impossible to define just one of those cultures as truly Southern. I lived in far southern Missouri for a few years and it was way different from, say, Mississippi. Or Georgia. I see "The South" as an umbrella that covers the former Confederate States, and under that umbrella there are a lot of different cultures and dialects. Some, like Texas, are influenced by the West while remaining part of the South. (A Texan will describe himself as "a Southerner" in an instant, and might also consider describing himself as a "Southwesterner," but none I've known would ever describe himself as "a Westerner.") YMMV, of course. :)