David and Priscilla updates

[cjsmom]

Can you explain what causes someone to continue with the baby voice? I'm confused about the term developmental delays. If someone has a delay, can they "catch up" or will they always be "behind"? Is having a developmental delay the same as an intellectual disability and is an intellectual disability a low IQ or something more/different?

Also, does anyone think its possible David didn't know Pris had these issues until AFTER they got married, since they aren't exactly allowed to have private conversations about anything/be alone. Or maybe he did know, liked the idea because she would be more pliable but now realizes the situation is really more like parenting than marriage.

The baby voice: typically *in my experience*, being cute or babyish is an effective cover for not knowing something and having to admit it - one individual I worked with would tell a story in a baby voice when she didn't understand a question, for example. I have also seen that cute worked really well when they're little, so they get lots of attention for it, and then it's a behaviour that has an immediate, consistent payoff. I have worked with two female individuals with diagnoses on the Autism spectrum, and they have cute affect - blending in with that whole not understanding people and thinking that's what people expect of them (ftr, my son has PDD-NOS - I have done a lot of reading on Autism, and I quite enjoy my time with individuals on that spectrum).

Developmental delays can mean different things depending on who is diagnosing, and such diagnoses typically come with extensive reports. It varies from individual to individual. Some catch up somewhat, others don't. I have worked with some people who have made tremendous growth intellectually for the 5-6 years I have them, and I have others who have made little growth (but have learned a few more hands-on skills through lots of practice and repetition with support).

Intellectual disabilities are diagnosed with 2 components - one being a full-scale IQ of less than 70, and an assessment of adaptive functioning (varies from assessment, but usually how they do with self-care, community skills, life skills, money skills etc., eg can the individual understand that money can pay for things?). An individual must have adaptive functioning skills lower than would be expected for an individual of their age, as well as a Full scale IQ of less than 70 to have an ID. I have individuals who only have the lower than average IQ, but who have great life and community skills, so they don't qualify for that diagnosis.

And my students with intellectual disabilities still have sex drives, and receive sex ed both in a general classroom, and with me in a small-group setting where I talk very clearly about waiting until they're ready and how to recognize a loving relationship with trust rather than 'oh he/she's cute, woo hoo!'.

[salsa]

OK, now I feel bad for poking fun at her, even though I still think it's like she's playing house rather than being a partner (in their case, helpmeet). If she was a preemie or had an illness or something, that would explain the slightly slow and slightly impeded speech patter. I don't know about the voice, though, probably a keep sweet thing.

I don't feel bad for poking fun at David, though. It's possible that she learned cute/sweet behavior well enough to have not registered on his "she's challenged" radar and he just thought she was cute and sweet. Still, I think he found someone simple enough and naive enough to not have to work to establish his headship because she won't be able to offer any challenges. Her simpleness gives him an easy ride. He needs a cop-out.

[sparrow]

This is a really interesting read for me, because I (admittedly... very embarrassed to admit) am one of those people who talks in a little kid voice pretty much all the time. I guess I'm lucky that my peers were never mean to me about it or critical of it. Most people either ignored it or continued to like me and treat me just the same so that I rarely realized I was doing it. For me, if I'm being honest, I think it might have started around puberty because I always knew my mom hated teenagers so when I started to become one, I was embarrassed of it and thought she would love me less if she realized I was becoming one. Like, I wanted her to think I was still sweet and innocent and "good"... to deflect attention from the fact that I was now interested in boys and sex and dressing attractively and music that she would not have approved of, and all those "bad" teenager-like things. And for the longest time, I'd actually convinced myself that was just how my voice sounded. Until I started to notice that when singing, I couldn't maintain high notes as easily as low notes. That's when I became suspicious that my voice was actually naturally much lower than the pitch at which I usually talked. Even knowing this though, I can still only talk in an adult voice when I'm really concentrating on it, and it's rather embarrassing for me to do. The human mind is such a strange and mysterious thing...

[browngrl]

This is a really interesting read for me, because I (admittedly... very embarrassed to admit) am one of those people who talks in a little kid voice pretty much all the time. I guess I'm lucky that my peers were never mean to me about it or critical of it. Most people either ignored it or continued to like me and treat me just the same so that I rarely realized I was doing it. For me, if I'm being honest, I think it might have started around puberty because I always knew my mom hated teenagers so when I started to become one, I was embarrassed of it and thought she would love me less if she realized I was becoming one. Like, I wanted her to think I was still sweet and innocent and "good"... to deflect attention from the fact that I was now interested in boys and sex and dressing attractively and music that she would not have approved of, and all those "bad" teenager-like things. And for the longest time, I'd actually convinced myself that was just how my voice sounded. Until I started to notice that when singing, I couldn't maintain high notes as easily as low notes. That's when I became suspicious that my voice was actually naturally much lower than the pitch at which I usually talked. Even knowing this though, I can still only talk in an adult voice when I'm really concentrating on it, and it's rather embarrassing for me to do. The human mind is such a strange and mysterious thing...

my sister used to speak in a childish voice , she found that it was a real hinderance at work/job interviews so she went for speech therapy and the therapist helped her "re pitch" her voice to a much more natural and adult tone - if your pitch embarrasses you - you might want to try that route - it certainly helped my sister

[yetanothermeg]

The baby voice: typically *in my experience*, being cute or babyish is an effective cover for not knowing something and having to admit it - one individual I worked with would tell a story in a baby voice when she didn't understand a question, for example. I have also seen that cute worked really well when they're little, so they get lots of attention for it, and then it's a behaviour that has an immediate, consistent payoff. I have worked with two female individuals with diagnoses on the Autism spectrum, and they have cute affect - blending in with that whole not understanding people and thinking that's what people expect of them (ftr, my son has PDD-NOS - I have done a lot of reading on Autism, and I quite enjoy my time with individuals on that spectrum).

Developmental delays can mean different things depending on who is diagnosing, and such diagnoses typically come with extensive reports. It varies from individual to individual. Some catch up somewhat, others don't. I have worked with some people who have made tremendous growth intellectually for the 5-6 years I have them, and I have others who have made little growth (but have learned a few more hands-on skills through lots of practice and repetition with support).

Intellectual disabilities are diagnosed with 2 components - one being a full-scale IQ of less than 70, and an assessment of adaptive functioning (varies from assessment, but usually how they do with self-care, community skills, life skills, money skills etc., eg can the individual understand that money can pay for things?). An individual must have adaptive functioning skills lower than would be expected for an individual of their age, as well as a Full scale IQ of less than 70 to have an ID. I have individuals who only have the lower than average IQ, but who have great life and community skills, so they don't qualify for that diagnosis.

And my students with intellectual disabilities still have sex drives, and receive sex ed both in a general classroom, and with me in a small-group setting where I talk very clearly about waiting until they're ready and how to recognize a loving relationship with trust rather than 'oh he/she's cute, woo hoo!'.

Thanks CJsmom. I've always been confused by the two terms.

[thoughtful]

It was bugging me for a while now just what Priscilla's situation reminded me of. Then I remembered a movie I had watched with my mother years and years ago http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056183/ called "Light in the Piazza". (this was a tough find, but gotta love IMDB which searched it with my crappy memory for the key words)

The basic story was that this young woman had been brain damaged by an accident and had the emotional/mental age of about 10 years old. This didn't stop her from falling in love with a rich Italian who only needed a loving and beautiful wife. Brains were not required.

This makes me think of the ideal Fundy wife. Pretty, soft spoken, not too bright. Especially in this case as Pris will never think to question David's sexuality.

I was just thinking that, I swear, about 5 posts before I got to yours - GMTA.

But I have less of an excuses, having just seen that film again fairly recently. I can't believe I didn't think of it before.

Priscilla's affect is much like that of the character, as portrayed by Yvette Mimieaux (who was cast in similar parts in The Time Machine and Joy in the Morning, although the latter character turned out to be bright).

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/3184 ... flies.html

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8jx4p ... &start=250

I guess we'll never know if the situation was the same.

[salex]

It was bugging me for a while now just what Priscilla's situation reminded me of. Then I remembered a movie I had watched with my mother years and years ago http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056183/ called "Light in the Piazza". (this was a tough find, but gotta love IMDB which searched it with my crappy memory for the key words)

The basic story was that this young woman had been brain damaged by an accident and had the emotional/mental age of about 10 years old. This didn't stop her from falling in love with a rich Italian who only needed a loving and beautiful wife. Brains were not required.

This makes me think of the ideal Fundy wife. Pretty, soft spoken, not too bright. Especially in this case as Pris will never think to question David's sexuality.

Welcome to Stepford.

[cjsmom]

Thanks CJsmom. I've always been confused by the two terms.

Happy to help :D

[lilith]

The thing that confuses me about Priscilla is that in early Duggar episodes, like Anna's wedding and the times she goes and stays with Michelle to help with the little kids, her slowness and baby talk wasn't noticeable. True, she didn't get heaps of camera time, but she didn't have the super sugary baby voice and she seemed normal and capable.

Also, she was leading Journeys to the Heart, and while I realise that that doesn't require much intellectual prowess, it would require organizational skills, memorizing of the materials, and the ability to take charge of a group of teenage girls who have never met before and who have often been very isolated and to make them feel comfortable.

I just don't see the Priscilla we see now being capable of doing those things. Has she, either deliberately or subconsciously, infantilized herself to fit the role of ideal ATI wife, with Michelle as her major role model?

[fundiemental]

I like the idea of Priscilla being a secret genius. Also maybe evil.

[Pearl]

It's funny - years and years ago I coined the phrase "little girl syndrome" when I realized that many of the wives in my fundamentalist circle acted and spoke like little girls. I couldn't figure it out. I guess I didn't get the memo. I think it's because we were taught to submit and go to our husbands for every little thing and that husbands, like wild animals, might get startled by loud, deep voices, that we must always speak with a soft, non-threatening voice. Also, part of the physical attributes of subjugation err submission is makes one look/behave younger than one really is.

I don't know why I never had "the voice" - maybe because my ex was so lazy, he didn't want to work; so I had to work, clean the house, make dinner, etc. When I look back on that time - I am so glad I had to work, even though it broke my heart because my husband wouldn't let me be a proper stay at home wife.

Anyhow, back on topic. I'm guessing David is a real jerk to be married to. He doesn't seem to be into Priscilla and if he really is a closeted gay man, I'm going to suppose that he's going to take out those frustrations on his wife. It must suck to not be able to be the person you really are.

[VooDooChild]

I'm so watching that movie.

Me too.

[persuas1ve]

I finally watched the Valentines Day video, and it was really sad watching David watch Priscilla every time she spoke. When she watched him, she was smiling and nodding in adoration and agreement; when he watched her, his facial expressions and occasional slow nods were what you would expect of someone listening to a child rehearse lines or a speech. Almost like he's expecting her to mess up & trying to will the correct words to come out. I don't know why I get this vibe, but I don't feel like he's patient with her or understanding. I imagine he's pissy and frustrated with her a lot and that makes me sad if she's truly delayed and unable to change.

[DefraudedByPlaid]

The thing that confuses me about Priscilla is that in early Duggar episodes, like Anna's wedding and the times she goes and stays with Michelle to help with the little kids, her slowness and baby talk wasn't noticeable. True, she didn't get heaps of camera time, but she didn't have the super sugary baby voice and she seemed normal and capable.

Also, she was leading Journeys to the Heart, and while I realise that that doesn't require much intellectual prowess, it would require organizational skills, memorizing of the materials, and the ability to take charge of a group of teenage girls who have never met before and who have often been very isolated and to make them feel comfortable.

I just don't see the Priscilla we see now being capable of doing those things. Has she, either deliberately or subconsciously, infantilized herself to fit the role of ideal ATI wife, with Michelle as her major role model?

This is a sad thought, but in a way I'd rather this be the case because it makes her seem less vulnerable. LESS vulnerable.

[Coconut Flan]

I didn't notice Priscilla's voice much when I saw the earlier episodes, but after hearing so much of her baby voice and then seeing the videos David put up, I went back and rewatched when Priscilla came to help Michelle. To me it was the same way she talks now. She was being really strange with Hannie and the boots. She was practically baby talking.

Anna said that Priscilla and David are much alike. Perhaps the exaggerated talking and weird mannerisms are what attracted them to each other.

[moreorlessnu]

If Priscilla is developmentally delayed, then how frustrating that must be for David. He's clearly bright and intelligent, and it must be a real let down not to have a "help meet" who he can converse with at his own level.

When I watched the Valentine videos, after it was finished, a collage of other "non-David-and-Priscilla" videos popped up including one of two women wearing thongs holding satin heart shaped pillows to their bare chests. Not quite godly, but definitely festive for the Valentine occasion. Did this happen to anyone else? I'm using Firefox.

[muffynbear]

David looks very annoyed with her by his body language. He looks like he barely tolerates her. I will say if he's gay, Prissy is the most clueless person ever. She will never notice.

[cjsmom]

If Priscilla is developmentally delayed, then how frustrating that must be for David. He's clearly bright and intelligent, and it must be a real let down not to have a "help meet" who he can converse with at his own level.

When I watched the Valentine videos, after it was finished, a collage of other "non-David-and-Priscilla" videos popped up including one of two women wearing thongs holding satin heart shaped pillows to their bare chests. Not quite godly, but definitely festive for the Valentine occasion. Did this happen to anyone else? I'm using Firefox.

I disagree. My IQ is very high, I'm university educated, but I enjoy my (special-needs) students and look forward each day to being with them. Obviously, the teacher-student relationship is different from that of husband-wife, but I can have meaningful conversations with most of my kids (there are a couple who are non-verbal, but even then, back and forth communication does happen) and we do form bonds over the 5-6 years we work together.

David, as the potential patriarch, had a choice. Yes, there are some fundie families who are more willing than others to marry off their SAHD's, but it's the male who initiates the courtship. Women exist in fundiedom to birth babies, feed and clean up after their headships, and not much else.

[Tina10]

David looks very annoyed with her by his body language. He looks like he barely tolerates her. I will say if he's gay, Prissy is the most clueless person ever. She will never notice.

What am I missing? Everyone seems to agree that David is unhappy and annoyed. I don't see it so please point out what he is doing in the videos.

Thanks

[Closed Womb]

I disagree. My IQ is very high, I'm university educated, but I enjoy my (special-needs) students and look forward each day to being with them. Obviously, the teacher-student relationship is different from that of husband-wife, but I can have meaningful conversations with most of my kids (there are a couple who are non-verbal, but even then, back and forth communication does happen) and we do form bonds over the 5-6 years we work together.

David, as the potential patriarch, had a choice. Yes, there are some fundie families who are more willing than others to marry off their SAHD's, but it's the male who initiates the courtship. Women exist in fundiedom to birth babies, feed and clean up after their headships, and not much else.

I think it depends on the person/people involved. I worked for someone who married a rather simple (but gorgeous) woman; not developmentally delayed, but not intelligent. He was miserable and started coming in to work early and leaving late, craving conversation with his office staff.

I wouldn't be surprised if David is frustrated. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if David is NOT frustrated. He may very much like the infantilization of his wife. Personally, I cannot tell from the videos. (The only thing I really know from them is that they creep me out and make me thankful for my autonomy.)

[lilith]

I think it depends on the person/people involved. I worked for someone who married a rather simple (but gorgeous) woman; not developmentally delayed, but not intelligent. He was miserable and started coming in to work early and leaving late, craving conversation with his office staff.

I wouldn't be surprised if David is frustrated. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if David is NOT frustrated. He may very much like the infantilization of his wife. Personally, I cannot tell from the videos. (The only thing I really know from them is that they creep me out and make me thankful for my autonomy.)

A lot of men, especially patriarchal minded men, don't seek intellectual companionship from their wives. They seek it from their friends and enjoy a different, simpler relationship with their wives, based around the home and family.

I have seen many successful professional men divorce their intellectual equal who they met and married at uni and marry a simple pretty girl 15 years younger who makes less demands of them.

I'm not saying its right, and when my first husband expected me to be one if those girls it really didn't work out, but many couples seem happy like that.

[muffynbear]

What am I missing? Everyone seems to agree that David is unhappy and annoyed. I don't see it so please point out what he is doing in the videos.

Thanks

It's little things I noticed. His jaw is clenched and his eyebrows have lot of tension. He seems to be flustered because his face is getting red. He seems completely over his relationship with Priscilla based on verbal clues. :)

[pudding]

I wanted to read David's story on the website and gave up since it's sooooo fucking long ... anybody found out what his work is? I really don't want to read through his brainfuck text..

AND do you know how old the two are?? All the fundies seem to be keen on not telling anybody the age of their older kids.

[fundiemental]

David is Gothard's assistant, i believe. I'm not sure about their ages. You have to read his long-ass story and extrapolate. I'd volunteer but i'm not caffeinated! I think he's mid to late twenties and she's a few years younger.

[Guest Anonymous]

He's the Administrative Director now. Gothard's no.2. I found it worth reading the story, but it is too long for me to be bothered writing a synopsis. :mrgreen: