evangelizing FSM to a clinic protester

[cindyluvs24]

I'm sure the doctor discussed birth control with her at her post AB check up.

[Maggie Mae]

OMG, Flora, y-you mean you can be pro-choice AND take care of homeless baby animals?! I'm confused!

i can't find any of my kittens, so here's a litter of my foster puppies. All are grown and adopted out to whatever kind of person enjoys JRT/Cairn mixes.

Puppies are cute!

But i think the mix would be evil! I had a cairn terrier when I was a kid and that dog was the worst! I never thought i could dislike an animal, and the more companion animals i meet, the more I think that the cairn was enough to make me believe in Satan and that Satan decided to come to earth and haunt me as a dog. If dogs could be sociopaths, that dog was it. J/K I just think he was a bad fit for our family. No one had the time to train a hyper dog.

[Gil]

Puppies are cute!

But i think the mix would be evil! I had a cairn terrier when I was a kid and that dog was the worst! I never thought i could dislike an animal, and the more companion animals i meet, the more I think that the cairn was enough to make me believe in Satan and that Satan decided to come to earth and haunt me as a dog. If dogs could be sociopaths, that dog was it. J/K I just think he was a bad fit for our family. No one had the time to train a hyper dog.

Aren't they adorable? But they would be completely psycho. They were bred by a designer dog breeder who must have been on drugs (she dumped the litter at a vet's when their dam died whelping alone). There's no other explanation for anyone who combines those two breeds...they've been adopted by people with a whoooole lot of energy to tire them out. I wouldn't own them ever -- I petsat for the big boy on the right once and after a week I thought I would lose my mind!

[Common]

OK So I haven't been around the block much here, but I know enough that I am late because the argument damper puppies pics have started flowing. But I have something that hasn't quite been illustrated to Sisil, and may help make sense of some things. Forgive me FJ.

I had an abortion because I had irresponsible sex. I knew I could get pregnant, I knew I didn't want to get pregnant, I planned on getting an abortion if I did. I still had irresponsible sex and needed an abortion. I, and others like me, are the really messed up ones that just shouldn't get a pass on this abortion thing, right?

Abortion needs to be available on demand, no excuses needed, no apologies. All those that said this you are right and thank you, from the bottom of my heart.

I was irresponsible, knew what I was doing and did it anyway- I should get the gavel right? The thing is, I was young, my single parent had just died after a long battle with cancer. I was depressed and self destructive[, so much that I got pregnant by a guy I didn't even like who was abusive. But I knew there was a limit to my self destruction and started making things right- The first thing I did: Got an abortion. For me, I believe this saved my life.

Still shame on me? Maybe, maybe not?

The thing is, there will never be a list of "Unacceptable" or "Acceptable scenarios for abortion" Guess how many variations there are on scenarios that could 'excuse' an abortion?; As many as there are women on earth. Human lives are complicated, we all have different circumstances at different times in life. Sisil, you seem to be capable of reason, so will you accept that you will never know all the details of someone's personal story to have a fair perspective on their choice? And then, Don't you see that you don't have the right to know those personal details that might exonerate them, even in your eyes? Yes? OK good- Now you see why you can't be pro-choice, with any exceptions. There is no place you can draw a line in between who should and shouldn't be judged.

...Before you continue that thought, on who really just does deserved to be judged.. Be honest, Is there and "IF" in that thought? As in "Well IF she...[anything]? Well, you just won't ever have a solid on that "IF" because you aren't her.

If you accept this, you're off the hook now and you don't have to keep baring the burden of judging. Relax and enjoy peace.

[BookEater]

Thanks for sharing your story and your insight.

The thing is, there will never be a list of "Unacceptable" or "Acceptable scenarios for abortion" Guess how many variations there are on scenarios that could 'excuse' an abortion?; As many as there are women on earth. Human lives are complicated, we all have different circumstances at different times in life. Sisil, you seem to be capable of reason, so will you accept that you will never know all the details of someone's personal story to have a fair perspective on their choice? And then, Don't you see that you don't have the right to know those personal details that might exonerate them, even in your eyes? Yes? OK good- Now you see why you can't be pro-choice, with any exceptions. There is no place you can draw a line in between who should and shouldn't be judged.

QFT

[quiningseven]

Just stopping in to play devil's advocate for a moment. I think it is possible to be pro choice and still view abortion as a morally grey area. Those who are pro choice for reasons of personal autonomy alone will view the issue differently from someone who is pro choice because they don't believe a potential life (while important) doesn't outweigh an existing life. I think what sisil is trying to convey is something like proper contraceptive use > morning after pill > abortion to preserve life of mother > early term elective abortion > late term elective abortion > being forced to give birth to unwanted child. This doesn't mean abortion is wrong- but maybe less desirable in her eyes than using contraceptives in the first place. That being said- what Common said definitely rings true- and I think it's important that we assume the best intentions of people who have or are making this choice, because we can't know their life.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Just stopping in to play devil's advocate for a moment. I think it is possible to be pro choice and still view abortion as a morally grey area. Those who are pro choice for reasons of personal autonomy alone will view the issue differently from someone who is pro choice because they don't believe a potential life (while important) doesn't outweigh an existing life. I think what sisil is trying to convey is something like proper contraceptive use > morning after pill > abortion to preserve life of mother > early term elective abortion > late term elective abortion > being forced to give birth to unwanted child. This doesn't mean abortion is wrong- but maybe less desirable in her eyes than using contraceptives in the first place. That being said- what Common said definitely rings true- and I think it's important that we assume the best intentions of people who have or are making this choice, because we can't know their life.

Pro choice means you support...choice. Nothing else. You can find abortion a morally grey area for yourself in that you decide you'll never ever have one because you think that's wrong for you. That's fine. But you can't try to force what you view as moral on the choices of others. Their choice is exactly that, their choice and it has nothing to do with you so you have no right judging. You can't be pro choice if you don't think all women have the right to make whatever choice they feel is best without imput or suggestions from you. If it's less desirable in her eyes, then she shouldn't have an abortion. But what is desirable in her eyes does not and should not equal what other women should do.

Would I choose an abortion? No idea. But if another woman chooses one that's her choice to make, and if she believes its right for her, then it is. Personally since another woman's abortion has no effect on me whatsoever I am pro I should mind my own business and not assume I know better than other people.

[Minerva]

Any woman claiming to take the mini pill to prevent pregnancy is either lying or completed ignorant of the limits of the mini pill. Since we all have interwebs it takes about ten seconds to find the information and ignorance is not an excuse.

I'm on the mini pill to prevent pregnancy. My doctor switches every patient from the combination pill to the progestin only pill when they begin experiencing migraines. But I suppose you know better than him. According to the "consumer information" sheet (2 feet of fine print that comes in every pack), my brand has a 1-5% failure rate. There is then a footnote saying that, in the 1st year of use, 0.5% of perfect users get pregnant vs. 5% of typical users. This makes it more effective than the condoms you rely on to prevent pregnancy, as per Sumeri's link. In fact, Sumeri's link gives the mini pill a much lower effectiveness rate than my info sheet, and yet it still gives it a higher effectiveness rate than condoms. Which don't "fail less than 1 percent of the time when used properly", by the way.

All this to say, you don't know what you're talking about re: contraception. You've judged eyelid based on wildly untrue things such as this:

She had FOUR children, she's not infertile.

I think even the most informed person in the world would be wrong to judge someone for having an abortion. However I cannot wrap my mind around someone knowing so little about a subject and still being confident enough in their moral authority to throw around judgement in a public forum and treat an adult woman as if she were a troublesome child.

And eyelid has seen this thread, by the way.

Oh, and this:

Someone tell me that you will be okay with her third and fourth abortion and not think that its okay that she doesn't take a REAL BC pill that is proven to prevent pregnancy or use condoms or whatever.

I would be fine with it. And even if I had some sort of moral objection to having more than 2 abortions (which wouldn't be a logical position to take, but that's been discussed already), I wouldn't use it as an excuse to be openly judgemental of other people. Because I'm pro-choice.