Are you a feminist?

[Austin]

http://www.npr.org/2012/08/04/157927695 ... roma-music

Caitlin Moran was interviewed on NPR last week and I can't wait to buy her book. Here's her test to tell if you're a feminist or not:

1. Do you have a vagina?

2. Do you want to be in charge of it?

If you answered yes to both questions, you are a feminist.

She mentions the frustration of speaking to younger woman who deny being feminists, something I can really relate with (her frustration, I mean).

[deelaem]

Love it! I wonder if I'm a feminist...it's so hard to tell...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I think this is overly simplistic. I know men who are more vocally feminist than me, but they do not have vaginas, and I know women who have vaginas and want to be in control of it but won't do jack to stand up against rights being taken from women.

[Austin]

It's simply in the context of women (younger women in particular) not wanting to identify as being feminists. The discussion was not about whether men can be or are feminists or not.

[AtroposHeart]

Well, I vote and want to go to school.

So by default, yes

[deelaem]

Men can be feminist supporters, but not feminists. Ferchristsake, can't women have even one thing to themselves without having to appease men just because they may actually treat women as human beings?

[FireIsCatching89]

YES!

Always have been, always will be. I love going to school and not turning over my piddly work-study checks to my headship (Dad, who is a lawyer and who most certainly makes more than 8.25/hr). I also like driving, voting, and having the ability to testify in a court of law.

Goodness, all this power is going to my head. And vagina.

[keen23]

YES- I am a feminist, because I believe women are people and not objects.

[mypsychoticself]

Men can be feminist supporters, but not feminists. Ferchristsake, can't women have even one thing to themselves without having to appease men just because they may actually treat women as human beings?

I don't understand this. Why do we need to keep feminism to ourselves? And shouldn't we be encouraging men to identify as feminists? The way I see it, the more people we have on our side, the better.

[mpheels]

I heard the interview as well. My favorite part was her reading of the passage from her book where she explains that is logically impossible for a woman to not be a feminist, because feminism is required for a woman to have an opinion about it in the first place. Only she said it a lot better...

[Maggie Mae]

I don't understand this. Why do we need to keep feminism to ourselves? And shouldn't we be encouraging men to identify as feminists? The way I see it, the more people we have on our side, the better.

I agree with this.

[Austin]

I think it's splitting hairs a bit. Can a man be a feminist or is he more accurately a feminist supporter? My man would be fine with either one, I'm quite sure. I don't believe that it makes a substantial difference.

It's always a little bit annoying when someone comes around with the "what-about-the-menz" nonsense. How men fit into feminism was not even addressed in the interview. I'm personally a lot more concerned about women who won't identify as feminists, and I meet a lot of younger ones who won't.

We have a number of die-hard literalists around here.

[deelaem]

In my (and other radical feminist's) opinion, men cannot be considered to be feminists because they do not, nor will ever, have the experience of oppression that women do. It's a bit like calling a white person an expert on the experience of racism from an African-American's perspective. As a white person, I can support and champion the cause of equality of the races, but I can never really understand what it is like to walk in their shoes.

Not to mention that while they are supporting (or not) feminism, they are still enjoying the spoils of male privilege, something that women are still fighting for.

[BlackHawk]

Men can be feminist supporters, but not feminists. Ferchristsake, can't women have even one thing to themselves without having to appease men just because they may actually treat women as human beings?

Deeleam, I ask this out of honest curiosity, and not to snark on your statement above. You ask if women can have even one thing to themselves without having to appease men, my question is can men have even one thing to themselves without having to appease women? Or would you call that man a sexist? I'm not trying to start a war or belittle your opinion, I'm honestly curious your opinion on the matter.

I consider myself a feminist supporter, as I have grown to understand the true inequalities of women in our society, something FreeJinger really has helped me learn on. People are people, no matter what.

Edit: spelling issues.

[TinyDancer87]

Deeleam, I ask this out of honest curiosity, and not to snark on your statement above. You ask if women can have even one thing to themselves without having to appease men, my question is can men have even one thing to themselves without having to appease women? Or would you call that man a sexist? I'm not trying to start a war or belittle your opinion, I'm honestly curious your opinion on the matter.

I consider myself a feminist supporter, as I have grown to understand the true inequalities of women in our society, something FreeJinger really has helped me learn on. People are people, no matter what.

Edit: spelling issues.

Part of the feministic "doctrine" is that women are equal to men. We should be treated the same, with the same respect, paid the same, have the same choices, etc. If we say, "Men, you cannot be XYZ because you are a man", aren't we going against what we stand for? Sexism and discrimination?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Feminism is about ending the patriarchy. Sex isn't a binary, it's currently a hierarchy, with women on the bottom. So you can't just flip the roles and call it equal, any more than you can do the analogies reversing race in various situations and have them work - because it's not the same thing with the roles reversed. People on the bottom of hierarchies need protected space to function, people on the top do not (because due to their privilege any space they are in becomes "their space" pretty much instantly).

There are many streams of feminism but this (radical feminism) is a large one.

[Austin]

Feminism is about ending the patriarchy. Sex isn't a binary, it's currently a hierarchy, with women on the bottom. So you can't just flip the roles and call it equal, any more than you can do the analogies reversing race in various situations and have them work - because it's not the same thing with the roles reversed. People on the bottom of hierarchies need protected space to function, people on the top do not (because due to their privilege any space they are in becomes "their space" pretty much instantly).

There are many streams of feminism but this (radical feminism) is a large one.

I started a couple of different posts on this, but nixed them as I am having trouble accessing the words I wanted today. But I agree with this, pretty much. This is how I've tried to explain it to my sons. They are on the top rung of the ladder just simply for being born in our society.

[deelaem]

Deeleam, I ask this out of honest curiosity, and not to snark on your statement above. You ask if women can have even one thing to themselves without having to appease men, my question is can men have even one thing to themselves without having to appease women? Or would you call that man a sexist? I'm not trying to start a war or belittle your opinion, I'm honestly curious your opinion on the matter.

I consider myself a feminist supporter, as I have grown to understand the true inequalities of women in our society, something FreeJinger really has helped me learn on. People are people, no matter what.

Edit: spelling issues.

Well, this sort of stunned me. Men have THE ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD to themselves. Women have to appease men to even have a part of it. Women have to do man-pleasing things every day to survive in a patriarchy. Even feminists. If you like, I can go through the litany of patriarchy-compliant things I have to do every day in order not to be totally rejected by society.

Maybe you're referring to the fact that straight men feel like they have to "appease" women if they want to have sex. This is a dirty little lie they love to perpetrate. Men take it as a personal affront when a woman doesn't want to have sex with him. If he has a reasonable amount of social conditioning, he will refrain from raping her outright, but he will use other ways to persuade her to have sex with him. Many of these are downright coercive, but some, such as flattery, seem harmless but at best are insincere. Sure, he might think that her hair is pretty or whatever, but he doesn't say that just for the sake of saying it. He says it because he wants her to like him enough so she will "consent" to have sex with him. Whether women like to admit it or not, this behavior is predatory. And if a woman continues to reject him, he will eventually resort to being nasty and derisive about her. It will always be the woman's fault that she wouldn't have sex with him.

If a man wants to have something and keep it to himself, he is never questioned about it. A man can self-identify and not have it dismissed and derided by women in any significant way. But me saying that I don't think a man can be a feminist is greeted by a chorus of "Oh no - we don't want to be just like them by saying that, do we?" It is impossible for a woman to treat men just like they treat us because we are the oppressed class. We live in a world of submission and domination, and even the most independent women have to submit to the patriarchy at some point. I know I have to.

Suggested reading - Feminism 101 http://www.shakesville.com/2010/01/feminism-101.html

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Well, this sort of stunned me. Men have THE ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD to themselves. Women have to appease men to even have a part of it. Women have to do man-pleasing things every day to survive in a patriarchy. Even feminists. If you like, I can go through the litany of patriarchy-compliant things I have to do every day in order not to be totally rejected by society.

I don't think this is completely true. I think men are overall still in a position of power, but there are still areas that are preceived to be female-only, or a man must be gay if he is in that intustry. Think childcare, nursing, fashion and sewing.

Maybe you're referring to the fact that straight men feel like they have to "appease" women if they want to have sex. This is a dirty little lie they love to perpetrate. Men take it as a personal affront when a woman doesn't want to have sex with him. If he has a reasonable amount of social conditioning, he will refrain from raping her outright, but he will use other ways to persuade her to have sex with him. Many of these are downright coercive, but some, such as flattery, seem harmless but at best are insincere. Sure, he might think that her hair is pretty or whatever, but he doesn't say that just for the sake of saying it. He says it because he wants her to like him enough so she will "consent" to have sex with him. Whether women like to admit it or not, this behavior is predatory. And if a woman continues to reject him, he will eventually resort to being nasty and derisive about her. It will always be the woman's fault that she wouldn't have sex with him.

I actually find this rather insulting. There are definitely pigs out there, but honestly, saying that every man is just a couple social rules away from raping every woman in sight is demeaning. It's the flip side of "Every woman is a slut," and just a step or two away from "cover them up so the men won't rape them."

If a man wants to have something and keep it to himself, he is never questioned about it. A man can self-identify and not have it dismissed and derided by women in any significant way. But me saying that I don't think a man can be a feminist is greeted by a chorus of "Oh no - we don't want to be just like them by saying that, do we?" It is impossible for a woman to treat men just like they treat us because we are the oppressed class. We live in a world of submission and domination, and even the most independent women have to submit to the patriarchy at some point. I know I have to.

Men cannot exprience life as women see it, but that doesn't mean they can't support equality.

That's like saying, no one could be a true abolitionist if they haven't been a slave, no one can support child labor laws unless they slaved away in a factory when they were 6, no one can support religious tolerance unless they are a religious minority.

[Librul]

Well, this sort of stunned me. Men have THE ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD to themselves. Women have to appease men to even have a part of it. Women have to do man-pleasing things every day to survive in a patriarchy. Even feminists. If you like, I can go through the litany of patriarchy-compliant things I have to do every day in order not to be totally rejected by society.

Maybe you're referring to the fact that straight men feel like they have to "appease" women if they want to have sex. This is a dirty little lie they love to perpetrate. Men take it as a personal affront when a woman doesn't want to have sex with him. If he has a reasonable amount of social conditioning, he will refrain from raping her outright, but he will use other ways to persuade her to have sex with him. Many of these are downright coercive, but some, such as flattery, seem harmless but at best are insincere. Sure, he might think that her hair is pretty or whatever, but he doesn't say that just for the sake of saying it. He says it because he wants her to like him enough so she will "consent" to have sex with him. Whether women like to admit it or not, this behavior is predatory. And if a woman continues to reject him, he will eventually resort to being nasty and derisive about her. It will always be the woman's fault that she wouldn't have sex with him.

If a man wants to have something and keep it to himself, he is never questioned about it. A man can self-identify and not have it dismissed and derided by women in any significant way. But me saying that I don't think a man can be a feminist is greeted by a chorus of "Oh no - we don't want to be just like them by saying that, do we?" It is impossible for a woman to treat men just like they treat us because we are the oppressed class. We live in a world of submission and domination, and even the most independent women have to submit to the patriarchy at some point. I know I have to.

Suggested reading - Feminism 101 http://www.shakesville.com/2010/01/feminism-101.html

YES, Thank you.

[mypsychoticself]

Glass Cowcatcher, thanks for that post. I was trying to find a way to respond, but simply couldn't.

I would also like to add that spaces can be safe/protected without being exclusive, or saying that other groups aren't allowed within that space.

[deelaem]

Glass Cowcatcher, thanks for that post. I was trying to find a way to respond, but simply couldn't.

I would also like to add that spaces can be safe/protected without being exclusive, or saying that other groups aren't allowed within that space.

This is your opinion, not a fact. I doubt a women's rape support group would feel safe if men were allowed in.

[deelaem]

I don't think this is completely true. I think men are overall still in a position of power, but there are still areas that are preceived to be female-only, or a man must be gay if he is in that intustry. Think childcare, nursing, fashion and sewing.

I actually find this rather insulting. There are definitely pigs out there, but honestly, saying that every man is just a couple social rules away from raping every woman in sight is demeaning. It's the flip side of "Every woman is a slut," and just a step or two away from "cover them up so the men won't rape them."

Men cannot exprience life as women see it, but that doesn't mean they can't support equality.

That's like saying, no one could be a true abolitionist if they haven't been a slave, no one can support child labor laws unless they slaved away in a factory when they were 6, no one can support religious tolerance unless they are a religious minority.

You just keep right on protecting their precious little fee-weens. After all, men are quite defenseless and need women to constantly point out that a small percentage of them think women should be "allowed" to have equal rights.

[bouncyball]

I'm just going to save myself time and effort and say I basically agree with everything deelaem says.

[deelaem]

I'm just going to save myself time and effort and say I basically agree with everything deelaem says.

You're a brave one, I'm not popular here. :lol:

But thank you.