Are you a feminist?

[Terrie]

I have issues with any strain of feminism that says it's the only way to be feminist. But, Austin, I did find the joke funny. :)

[EmmieJ]

http://www.npr.org/2012/08/04/157927695/fresh-air-weekend-feminists-models-roma-music

Caitlin Moran was interviewed on NPR last week and I can't wait to buy her book. Here's her test to tell if you're a feminist or not:

1. Do you have a vagina?

2. Do you want to be in charge of it?

If you answered yes to both questions, you are a feminist.

She mentions the frustration of speaking to younger woman who deny being feminists, something I can really relate with (her frustration, I mean).

It can be depressing to see so many young women (actually, women of all ages) seemingly run away from the term "feminist", considering the long, difficult struggle so many other women have endured just to get us to where we are today. I embrace the word "feminist" and am proud to be one. Anyone who believes that women should have equal rights with men, the right to be paid on par with men who do the exact same jobs, the right to have access to affordable and safe birth control, the right to make informed decisions about their bodies - is a feminist. If you believe that every female has the right to follow her dreams, to seek higher education, or to play any sport she wants, or choose whether she will put her career on hold to raise a family, or choose to juggle family and career at the same time, then you are a feminist.

[Austin]

It can be depressing to see so many young women (actually, women of all ages) seemingly run away from the term "feminist", considering the long, difficult struggle so many other women have endured just to get us to where we are today. I embrace the word "feminist" and am proud to be one. Anyone who believes that women should have equal rights with men, the right to be paid on par with men who do the exact same jobs, the right to have access to affordable and safe birth control, the right to make informed decisions about their bodies - is a feminist. If you believe that every female has the right to follow her dreams, to seek higher education, or to play any sport she wants, or choose whether she will put her career on hold to raise a family, or choose to juggle family and career at the same time, then you are a feminist.

Agreed.

[CanadianHippie]

Charges of misandry are easily and predictably thrown around here by a few. While both are wrong, the balance of power that is created by the patriarchy makes it impossible for anybody accused of misandry to have much negative impact on men in our society. The opposite is not is so not true. Such discussions cannot take place in a vacuum where the issue of power and who has it and who doesn't is not recognized as a huge factor.

But the misandry that some feminists insist on contributing to the conversation is a big part of why so many young women who hold feminist ideals flat out refuse to be associated with the movement and why so many others who are perhaps on the fence to an extent end up avoiding the movement. In other words, the blatant misandry doesn't affect men, it affects feminism. Arguing against sexism is wholly ineffective when most of the arguments you make are of the "Men are evil, horrible, no good, very bad people!" type instead of the "women and people and deserve the same respect, treatment and opportunities as men" arguments.

Deelaem's BS (and the BS of those like her) make it harder for the rest of us who actually want equality instead of superiority to be taken seriously.

[CanadianHippie]

Part of my issue is, and will remain, the simple fact that radfems want to exclude non-cisgendered women from feminism. I think this says it better than I can

Funny.

I often see a similar conversation in my head when some feminist claims I am not capable of knowing myself because I don't live in social vacuum, only instead of the gender queer the topic is a woman's ability to think for herself.

[Maude]

It can be depressing to see so many young women (actually, women of all ages) seemingly run away from the term "feminist", considering the long, difficult struggle so many other women have endured just to get us to where we are today. I embrace the word "feminist" and am proud to be one. Anyone who believes that women should have equal rights with men, the right to be paid on par with men who do the exact same jobs, the right to have access to affordable and safe birth control, the right to make informed decisions about their bodies - is a feminist. If you believe that every female has the right to follow her dreams, to seek higher education, or to play any sport she wants, or choose whether she will put her career on hold to raise a family, or choose to juggle family and career at the same time, then you are a feminist.

+1.

[Austin]

But the misandry that some feminists insist on contributing to the conversation is a big part of why so many young women who hold feminist ideals flat out refuse to be associated with the movement and why so many others who are perhaps on the fence to an extent end up avoiding the movement. In other words, the blatant misandry doesn't affect men, it affects feminism. Arguing against sexism is wholly ineffective when most of the arguments you make are of the "Men are evil, horrible, no good, very bad people!" type instead of the "women and people and deserve the same respect, treatment and opportunities as men" arguments.

Deelaem's BS (and the BS of those like her) make it harder for the rest of us who actually want equality instead of superiority to be taken seriously.

Gee, I must have missed when any FJer ever stated that "Men are evil, horrible, no good, very bad people". I've also missed the part where anyone ever seriously argued that women are superior to men. However, I have not missed that you come swooping in with your "what about the menz? eleventy!11!!!" BS whenever there's any discussion of feminism, which is one reason I don't take your POV very seriously. You're a one-note wonder.

[CanadianHippie]

Gee, I must have missed when any FJer ever stated that "Men are evil, horrible, no good, very bad people". I've also missed the part where anyone ever seriously argued that women are superior to men. However, I have not missed that you come swooping in with your "what about the menz? eleventy!11!!!" BS whenever there's any discussion of feminism, which is one reason I don't take your POV very seriously. You're a one-note wonder.

Follow Deelaem around and a little while, you'll start getting a whiff of how evil men supposedly are, how no one should get a shit about them because they have a penis, oh and how any woman who makes a choice that Deelaem doesn't agree with is "a tool of the patriarchy". And for the record, I have opted not to bother with plenty of discussions on "feminism" because the only feminism being discussed is the sort that gives yet another negative stereotype for women to fight against.

For the record I don't take Deelaem's opinions seriously and I take her own personal posse's opinions even less seriously because it's clear that they are only leghumping to appease the rad fem.

[CanadianHippie]

And really, it's exhausting that I have to deal with people thinking I'm too stupid to know what I want because I'm a woman on one side, and other people who think I'm too stupid to know what I want because I'm a woman on the other side all because I happen to form my own opinions.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Part of my issue is, and will remain, the simple fact that radfems want to exclude non-cisgendered women from feminism. I think this says it better than I can

This is also my biggest issue with radfems. They also tend to ignore the experiences of women who aren't white, heterosexual and financially stable. Not that they want to ignore them, they just never address their experiences. I like that picture and i can see that happening in real life. If someone identifies as a woman they are a woman no matter what parts they have. I can't agree with anyone who disagrees with that. 'women born women' is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I did actually find the OP very funny, I just didn't find some of the responses funny at all, which is what I was resacting to.

[Austin]

Follow Deelaem around and a little while, you'll start getting a whiff of how evil men supposedly are, how no one should get a shit about them because they have a penis, oh and how any woman who makes a choice that Deelaem doesn't agree with is "a tool of the patriarchy". And for the record, I have opted not to bother with plenty of discussions on "feminism" because the only feminism being discussed is the sort that gives yet another negative stereotype for women to fight against.

For the record I don't take Deelaem's opinions seriously and I take her own personal posse's opinions even less seriously because it's clear that they are only leghumping to appease the rad fem.

Yes, I'm a radfem leghumper. :roll:

I am not a radfem and have never purported to be. I do not aspire to be, as my personal sensibilities are not congruous with that POV in some important ways, so I have no need to "appease" anyone. I do however, have an understanding of sorts about how the balance of power and who has it plays an incredibly important role in the overall discussion, something which you seem to lack.

And since you continue to bring up Deelaem, she has been posting for a long time, probably longer than you, so I'm pretty familiar with her views. Still, I've never seen where she has posted that men are evil and horrible and women are superior to them. Perhaps I've simply missed that, and if so, she is but one person and I think it's safe to say that that POV does not represent the vast majority of FJers, including me. But more importantly, and back to what I actually wrote, I've never seen anyone else post that.

If you have an issue with Deelaem, then by all means, take it up with her and stop your nasty little passive aggressive swipes at others.

[Austin]

And really, it's exhausting that I have to deal with people thinking I'm too stupid to know what I want because I'm a woman on one side, and other people who think I'm too stupid to know what I want because I'm a woman on the other side all because I happen to form my own opinions.

:violin:

[Angri-la]

Yes, I am a feminist. Oh, wait, this isn't just a poll thread? I did, once, leave a meeting of political women on campus, as they tried to tell me I wasn't a feminist because I was wearing lipstick, and "buying into the patriarchy's idea of beauty"). I was, in my mind, rebelling against the patriarchal upbringing I underwent, as we were not allowed make-up, and horrors, red lipstick. That tube of Mac British Red was my symbol of freedom!

Austin: I love you more and more every day.

[Guest Anonymous]

And really, it's exhausting that I have to deal with people thinking I'm too stupid to know what I want because I'm a woman on one side, and other people who think I'm too stupid to know what I want because I'm a woman on the other side all because I happen to form my own opinions.

How are you not doing that to other women right here?

For the record I don't take Deelaem's opinions seriously and I take her own personal posse's opinions even less seriously because it's clear that they are only leghumping to appease the rad fem.

It's not different or better to discount women's experiences because you say they're appeasing rad fems than to discount women's experiences because someone else says they're appeasing men.

[Austin]

Yes, I am a feminist. Oh, wait, this isn't just a poll thread? I did, once, leave a meeting of political women on campus, as they tried to tell me I wasn't a feminist because I was wearing lipstick, and "buying into the patriarchy's idea of beauty"). I was, in my mind, rebelling against the patriarchal upbringing I underwent, as we were not allowed make-up, and horrors, red lipstick. That tube of Mac British Red was my symbol of freedom!

Austin: I love you more and more every day.

I've nearly worn my Clinique Bamboo Pink down to the nub and would never give up my pedicures and OPI polish (this week's color is Cajun Shrimp, which actually sounds a little weird being that it's on my feet :) ). I feel good about myself and won't change it to please anyone, man, woman, or beast, on either side of the spectrum.

Oh, and I you right back!

[deelaem]

Wow, I'm just now getting back to this thread because I really didn't want to prolong the acrimony, and I felt like I had said what I wanted to say. But now I want to add a bit more.

First of all, I looked back on some of my posts and some of what I said came across as judgmental as hell. I do have a tendency to get frustrated about what I see as patriarchy apology. With the help of other feminist friends, I'm learning to respect where other women are at on feminism spectrum. Not everyone feels the abject fury I feel towards patriarchy, so I need to stop assuming they do. I used to be such a male-approval addict that it was pathetic, and I think I'm projecting that. But it took drastic words/concepts to pull me out of that, so I guess that's why I say outrageous things sometimes. I will do my best to knock that off.

Canadian Hippie, your hostility towards me has been interesting. I try to respond lightly, but I feel like your feelings are coming from the male part of you. I don't respond well to men making excuses for patriarchy. Your anger seems misplaced, so I really have no intention of responding to you at all in the future. I hope you figure out what's bugging you so damn much. And as for me having "leg humpers" - HA! I probably get the least amount of private messages from people here (I think it's still in the 10's) and I only share FB with two other people. Believe me, there's no secret PM army of rad fems here at FJ. You are safe from the scary feminist cooties as long as you sit next to doggie. He understands your pain.

As for everyone else, if you want to tell me, "Dee, you're doing it again!" I will offer a mea culpa and cut it out. Or you can just ignore me, I'm cool with that too. Small prices to pay to be among such open-minded and intelligent women.

[Deleted03]

I don't want to hit anyone's back and I think deelaem it takes a lot of guts to admit that you are working on some knee jerk reactions.

My (and I am talking about me IRL) experience with radical feminist pushed me to realize that what bother me the most about their discourse is that women - and in particular radical feminists that agreed with them - are able to get some distance from patriarchy and analyze their actions, discourses and become totally free of patriarchy. But on the other hand, this is impossible for any man to do - hence a man can only aspire to be pro-feminist, but never feminist.

Several things are obviously problematic with this:

1- what makes them so particular or open that they are able to analyze everything about patriarchy and they are special enough to get away from everything?

2- Why are other women who disagree automatically defending patriarchy or parts of it? In the group that I knew I heard several occurrences of "giving oral sex on your knees is not feminist" This kind of it's our way or the highway is really problematic to convince other, and to avoid marginalizing other feminists who have a different understanding of what patriarchy means or what their actions mean. It's not that we don't have fury at patriarchy, is that we understand patriarchy differently.

3- Why is it that men are unable to abstract from socialization but women are? I don't get it. Well I know where it stems from (overly defined male and female classes that become reified) None of my male friend are supporting patriarchy. As far as I can tell division of tasks within the home is fair - yes some did take more reflection, but honestly I am still struggling to grasp an understanding of how I was raised and what actions and rules I had to live through were not legitimate. So yeah it takes time, but it takes time for everyone no matter if they have a penis or a clitoris or any variation in between. Which gets me back to point 1 - I will never believe that anyone whoever they are has managed to question every single thing they have been taught over the years in their families and in society. I am upset when someone takes for granted qualities about me because of my gender and I believe it is the same for men. Now, it does not mean that we have to make a campaign over that, but acknowledging often helps like with any issue.

4- And this brings me to point 4. Why do I feel the need to defend myself so quickly? Well that is another part of the problem. Radical feminists that I met, if you tell them many (many) boys flung out of school and it is a problem, they will respond that women don't get jobs. Because any bit of attention on men seems to be to them attention that should go to women. Do they study the issue and realize that most of them are indigenous? The problem is not that men are favored over women, the problem is that the system has an ideal type where men can fit more easily, but not all men do. And those that are left on the side, are as much victims of the system as women are.

5- And finally I don't think we can talk about women and men as two classes. There are strands of experience in common, yes. But patriarchy is also built along a complicated racial hierarchy, an economical system (capitalism) and a lot of other hierarchies (age, capabilities, sexuality, etc) that are (again to me) very important to acknowledge. Some women exploit other women on their gender, ethnicity, economic positions, etc. And it is just as important to voice than exploitation by men over women and of men on other men.

Those are five very brief points of the things that I think that many radical feminists do not realize about their discourse. So no they are not men haters, but the way the discourse is made, it is understandable that this is the feeling one gets after listening to them.

As I said in the beginning, I am not trying to put anyone down, just sharing other experiences I had, some of that might or might not apply to all radical feminists, but I think it is worth thinking about.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Intersectionality happens, sure. But somehow it's okay to talk about race alone, it's okay to talk about class alone, but suddenly when it's talking about sex, we can't talk about women as a class because that's not okay, we're supposed to pay attention to all those myriad other differences FIRST. That's even before the inevitable "but we have to worry about how this is affecting MEN" always always always starts up. And yes, it starts feeling uncomfortably close to the usual expectation that women are supposed to care for everyone first before themselves, because that's how women are supposed to be "nurturing."

Yeah, I do have a problem with that. No radfems I know are trying to erase those other axes, and there are plenty of non-white radfem women out there too. But sometimes people want to talk about sex discrimination and the patriarchy, which operates even among the disadvantaged class, even among non-white.

Meanwhile men can take care of themselves. Absolutely they too suffer from the patriarchy but it is not women's responsibility to solve that for them - they have the greater power under patriarchy (which has nothing at all to do with them as individuals or their beliefs - and I think that's the biggest philosophical difference between "radicals" and "liberals' maybe) and so have greater access to the levers of power to fix it. It is other MEN, not women, who are causing various of the issues they face. It is not women who say it's not okay for men to be sensitive, to admit weakness. Absolutely many men are uncomfortable with expectations made on them by their gender - but it's the patriarchy, not women, who are making those expectations. In fact I'd say the problem is that under patriarchy, men who behave a certain way are classed as WOMEN, they get all the negative stereotypes of women applied to them, they're no longer real men they're failed men which is... women. Thing is though women have those stereotypes applied all the time regardless of how they behave.

And yes, that's true even on those other axes - you take "all other things remaining equal" approach and look at a pair of man and woman, the man is on top. In some ways the less other types of social power a man has (economic, racial, etc) the MORE pressure there is to at least be "manly" and display control over women. Street harassment is a good example.

I think the issue of how to use the term "feminist" (should we have "feminist" and "allies", or should it be "female feminists" and "male feminists") is just wordplay, really, but the core of the issue is that (IMHO) sometimes women DO need to have spaces and organizing that happens just among them, talking about sexual discrimination in particular, as its own axis.

And I also think that there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that men too suffer under patriarchy, and supporting (as allies, again!) their fight against it because it's eventually in women's interests too. But it seems that pretty much everywhere the topic of feminism comes up other than on actual radfem sites, it's instantly swamped with the same old "but what about the men! You're hating men!" discussion.

I guess I'm close to deelaem myself, maybe. Yet, I'm married - making my best friend in the entire world a man. Personally I don't find any conflict in those things. (Maybe it helps we're both pretty far to the left... :))

[deelaem]

Sophie, you make some really interesting points. I'll try to address them from my point of view, but it should be understood from the beginning that I am a heterosexual rad feminist, and there is a difference there.

My (and I am talking about me IRL) experience with radical feminist pushed me to realize that what bother me the most about their discourse is that women - and in particular radical feminists that agreed with them - are able to get some distance from patriarchy and analyze their actions, discourses and become totally free of patriarchy. But on the other hand, this is impossible for any man to do - hence a man can only aspire to be pro-feminist, but never feminist.

I don't think anyone can become totally free of patriarchy at this time, it's literally the ocean we all swim in. If you are an independently wealthy lesbian who lives in the boonies, that's about as close as you can come. The rest of us have to live with patriarchy on a daily basis. Being able to analyze the issues doesn't mean we can come up with too many workable solutions, because we are an oppressed minority. But analysis helps us understand where the responsibility for social injustice lies, and to blame the systems rather than the individuals for it. Although there are some individuals that personify the injustices, (fundies, etc.) and we feel free to snark and object to them anytime.

2- Why are other women who disagree automatically defending patriarchy or parts of it? In the group that I knew I heard several occurrences of "giving oral sex on your knees is not feminist" This kind of it's our way or the highway is really problematic to convince other, and to avoid marginalizing other feminists who have a different understanding of what patriarchy means or what their actions mean. It's not that we don't have fury at patriarchy, is that we understand patriarchy differently.

I need to do a better job of "calling out defenders" of patriarchy so they don't feel offended. My intent is to bring up a perspective that probably never occurred to them, but I need to do that with questions rather than blanket statements. Hanging out in rad fem communities, you develop some pretty blunt ways of expressing yourself that is borne out of anger and frustration. As far as the oral sex on your knees thing, that's debatable, I personally feel like if the intent of the act is not one of dominance/submission, then it's no big deal.

Which gets me back to point 1 - I will never believe that anyone whoever they are has managed to question every single thing they have been taught over the years in their families and in society. I am upset when someone takes for granted qualities about me because of my gender and I believe it is the same for men. Now, it does not mean that we have to make a campaign over that, but acknowledging often helps like with any issue.

I'm afraid I don't agree with you on this. I do question every thing I've been taught, but it doesn't always mean I toss it away. And men may get offended when questioned about their behaviors/actions, but that's not really my problem. They need to be rattled a bit if they are ever going to get their consciousnesses' raised. Think about it, why would they want to challenge the status quo when they receive so much benefit from it?

4- And this brings me to point 4. Why do I feel the need to defend myself so quickly? Well that is another part of the problem. Radical feminists that I met, if you tell them many (many) boys flung out of school and it is a problem, they will respond that women don't get jobs. Because any bit of attention on men seems to be to them attention that should go to women. Do they study the issue and realize that most of them are indigenous? The problem is not that men are favored over women, the problem is that the system has an ideal type where men can fit more easily, but not all men do. And those that are left on the side, are as much victims of the system as women are.

I don't know why you feel the need to defend yourself so quickly. You're the only one that can answer that. I would argue that men are favored over women, in every aspect of life. And yes, that is the fault of the patriarchal system, which does have varying degrees of intensity. And if men are feeling like they are victims of this system, they are more free than women to speak up and change their part of it. They risk only blows to their egos, women risk livelihood, reputation, and sometimes their lives.

5- And finally I don't think we can talk about women and men as two classes. There are strands of experience in common, yes. But patriarchy is also built along a complicated racial hierarchy, an economical system (capitalism) and a lot of other hierarchies (age, capabilities, sexuality, etc) that are (again to me) very important to acknowledge. Some women exploit other women on their gender, ethnicity, economic positions, etc. And it is just as important to voice than exploitation by men over women and of men on other men.

I agree that patriarchy is built along all lines of society. And yes, women do exploit other women to get ahead. Why? Because the patriarchy rewards them for doing so. The patriarchy rewards complete compliance very handsomely. Think Mitt Romney, Donald Trump, and the Bush regime.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and helping me learn some things. I may not agree with it all, but I'm glad for the discussion. :)

[deelaem]

gardenvarietycitizen - Thanks for making some points much more eloquently than I did. Things that are covered in the rad fem world do get taken out of context, and then represented as an attack on other women. But as you know, most of us totally understand that sisters sometimes need to do what they need to do to survive in a patriarchy.

I guess I'm close to deelaem myself, maybe. Yet, I'm married - making my best friend in the entire world a man. Personally I don't find any conflict in those things. (Maybe it helps we're both pretty far to the left... )

I'm married to a man myself, and have two grown sons whom I adore. I don't have much conflict with that either, because we keep the lines of communication open. And yeah, it does help when both are open-minded - although mine has to be dragged kicking and screaming sometimes! ;) :lol:

[Terrie]

I respect deeleam, even if I don't agree with her on this issue. My disagreement with radfem is both philosophical and person.

Philosophically, Radical Feminism tends to postulate a universal female experience, which experience tells me is not universal, because as an asexual, it sometimes has very little to do with my life. Basically, Radfem, for me, says Women are X; I am not X, therefore... Do I count as a woman in the eyes of Radfem?

Additionally, for me, as a feminist, I need to be concerned about both men and women who are victims of abuse of power, being it in the context of domestic violence, rape, or other forms. For me, focusing on the fact that women are the majority of victims undermines equality, not because "It's all about the men" but because if majority rules, even the most depressing statistics put the rate of women who are, for instance, sexually assaulted at less than 50%. So by that logic, we should focus on the needs of the majority of women who will never be sexually assaulted. I realize most people won't agree with my viewpoint, and that's okay. This view overlaps with some of my personal issues with Radfem.

I had a good friend in college who was abused by his girlfriend. She misused Radfem viewpoints to justify her behavior to the point where she claimed that women can't abuse men because of the patriarchy. Now, I don't want to get into the One True Scotsman type. As I said, I recognize this as a misuse of Radfem thinking. But it made me sensitive to that potential and also made me aware that I'm not comfortable with the reality that male victims can often fall through the cracks. While I agree that there need to options of female-only (and male-only) support groups, it doesn't help to say "Men can create their own support groups." A man in crisis is not in a position to create the support systems he needs.

Anyway, that's a rather rambling explanation of why I don't agree on with Deeleam on this issue, but can still respect that her experiences have led her to very different conclusions.

[CanadianHippie]

Canadian Hippie, your hostility towards me has been interesting. I try to respond lightly, but I feel like your feelings are coming from the male part of you. I don't respond well to men making excuses for patriarchy. Your anger seems misplaced, so I really have no intention of responding to you at all in the future. I hope you figure out what's bugging you so damn much. And as for me having "leg humpers" - HA! I probably get the least amount of private messages from people here (I think it's still in the 10's) and I only share FB with two other people. Believe me, there's no secret PM army of rad fems here at FJ. You are safe from the scary feminist cooties as long as you sit next to doggie. He understands your pain.

I can assure you that the hostility you are picking up comes from the female part of me. The female part who is sick and tired of other people trying to tell her how she needs to feel about something, or what she can or cannot like. The men who tell me "girls can't like baseball" or "girls should feel happy and contented when cooking" get the same hostility for the same reason.

For the record, I have fewer than 10 PM's and I haven't shared my facebook with anyone on here.

The cooties I don't want are the "do it my way or your are a bad, horrible person" cooties.

[jenny_islander]

http://www.npr.org/2012/08/04/157927695/fresh-air-weekend-feminists-models-roma-music

Caitlin Moran was interviewed on NPR last week and I can't wait to buy her book. Here's her test to tell if you're a feminist or not:

1. Do you have a vagina?

2. Do you want to be in charge of it?

If you answered yes to both questions, you are a feminist.

She mentions the frustration of speaking to younger woman who deny being feminists, something I can really relate with (her frustration, I mean).

My mother succinctly defined feminism for me when I was in grade school and her explanation has stayed with me for life: Feminism is believing that if something is beneath a man's dignity, a woman shouldn't be expected to put up with it either.