Are you a feminist?

[CanadianHippie]

I am going to save the time and effort of quoting to say that deelaem's misandry is showing again.

[mypsychoticself]

This is your opinion, not a fact. I doubt a women's rape support group would feel safe if men were allowed in.

What if that man's a rape victim as well? Doesn't he also deserve a safe space in which to discuss his experiences?

I think that, by excluding men, it can be easy to forget that they aren't always benefited by patriarchy. Men may be able to enter many spaces safely, but there are few spaces where they can safely express vulnerability, or discuss the problems that patriarchy has caused for them.

[CanadianHippie]

What if that man's a rape victim as well? Doesn't he also deserve a safe space in which to discuss his experiences?

I think that, by excluding men, it can be easy to forget that they aren't always benefited by patriarchy. Men may be able to enter many spaces safely, but there are few spaces where they can safely express vulnerability, or discuss the problems that patriarchy has caused for them.

Shhh... Teh Menz can't be victims! Just ask Deelaem, she knows all and anything she says is right even if it fails basic logic or reeks of sexism towards men or women.

[deelaem]

I am going to save the time and effort of quoting to say that deelaem's misandry is showing again.

Ah honey, when you say these things about me, it just makes me want to CHANGE! I only want to please you!

[deelaem]

GlassCowcatcher, I owe you an apology for being so sarcastic with you. I don't like jumping on other women who really do have a feminist outlook just for not understanding the gravity of the problem. I won't try to excuse what I said, I'm just going to say I'm sorry for being rude.

But for the rest of you who still suck on the pipe of male approval, let me just tell you that I've been there. But that doesn't mean I deserved to be excused for throwing over a sister for the sake of being cool with the men, and neither do you.

It's the patriarchy I blame, and the men are the beneficiaries of the patriarchy. So I refuse to collude with them in order to maintain their status quo, and no insults (misandry, really?) will change my mind about that.

[deelaem]

What if that man's a rape victim as well? Doesn't he also deserve a safe space in which to discuss his experiences?

I think that, by excluding men, it can be easy to forget that they aren't always benefited by patriarchy. Men may be able to enter many spaces safely, but there are few spaces where they can safely express vulnerability, or discuss the problems that patriarchy has caused for them.

If men want to discuss the problems they have with patriarchy, who's stopping them? Oh wait, I know the answer to that - the patriarchy is stopping them! They are afraid to be vulnerable because they don't want to be harshly judged by their fellow patriarchs. Why is this the problem of women? If they want it to stop, they have the power to do so.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Men cannot exprience life as women see it, but that doesn't mean they can't support equality.

That's like saying, no one could be a true abolitionist if they haven't been a slave, no one can support child labor laws unless they slaved away in a factory when they were 6, no one can support religious tolerance unless they are a religious minority.

Being supportive in that way IS being an ally. But it's not their movement, is all. They are still on the sidelines.

[deelaem]

Being supportive in that way IS being an ally. But it's not their movement, is all. They are still on the sidelines.

You sooooo get it. :D

[Glass Cowcatcher]

GlassCowcatcher, I owe you an apology for being so sarcastic with you. I don't like jumping on other women who really do have a feminist outlook just for not understanding the gravity of the problem. I won't try to excuse what I said, I'm just going to say I'm sorry for being rude...

Apology accepted. It's just that I know some men--not enough, to be sure--who truly are actively in support of women's rights, and that rubbed me the wrong way. I just don't think you have to understand what an oppressed group is going through to see that denying them rights is wrong.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Apology accepted. It's just that I know some men--not enough, to be sure--who truly are actively in support of women's rights, and that rubbed me the wrong way. I just don't think you have to understand what an oppressed group is going through to see that denying them rights is wrong.

I understand what you are both saying Glass Cowcatcher and deelam. It's like the many gay rights supporters who are straight. Sure they can't empathize and they don't have the experience, but their support is valuable to getting things done and I truly appreciate it. I see men identifying as feminists the same way. It's still valuable support that may make a difference.

[Deleted07]

Interesting topic! I know I got jumped all over once before for saying I understand why some young women (like myself previously -bolding so I don't get jumped on again) have hesitated to call themselves feminist, simply because there's a lot of people that just didn't understand the concept, and was letting the negative connotations take over the "label" and mainly that some of the louder women of said label, could be pretty extreme and basically hypocritical in their views. Not to mention unable to see anyone elses side, even if they do agree with the basic values, saying stuff like "oh you're not a true feminist because.... etc.

It's like anything people believe in, there is always going to be a few "extremists" and those who warp the basic 'doctrine' (for lack of a better words!) into their own agenda, and that's fine. I do feel its important is to try and get the real definition and core message/values out there and not let these negative connotations take over.

The quote "If you Have a Vagina and want to be in charge of it - that makes you a feminist" may be simplistic, but it works! Because it cuts to the core of what feminism is about, women being in charge of themselves, and not having a man, government or ANYONE being in charge for them (in my view). This tagline also will perk interest of women who, as I said before might have hesitated and not understood the concept etc.

Having said that, does that mean men can't be a feminist? I think they can! Its like with anything. I may not have been born black or Asian or Jewish or Gay, but I can see the oppression, racism/sectarianism/homophobia one can experience from being in this minority, admittedly its not 1st hand and I can never *REALLY* feel how it is to be black or gay or both. But does that stop me from fighting for their equality because I'm not Gay or etc?

Anywho, hope that made some sense, its a very Interesting topic.

[ElphabaGalinda]

What if that man's a rape victim as well? Doesn't he also deserve a safe space in which to discuss his experiences?

I think that, by excluding men, it can be easy to forget that they aren't always benefited by patriarchy. Men may be able to enter many spaces safely, but there are few spaces where they can safely express vulnerability, or discuss the problems that patriarchy has caused for them.

You do have a point, there are male rape victims and males hurt by the partriarchy, but it is women that are hurt by the patriarchy most, by a large large amount, so it has to be that there are women's rape support groups, and safe spaces for women, and it's a sad fact that this is how it is.

I also think it's important to recognize different levels of privilege. A white, heterosexual christian woman has more privilege than a black, Muslim lesbian woman for example. A white heterosexual christian man has the most privilege of all, and the black gay Muslim man will have much less privilege than he does. I think it's unfair to say that the experience of these two men or these two women is the same, and I sometimes feel that there are people who say that. There is more than one repressed minority, and as a member of more than one sometimes I feel more repressed for one thing than the other, and it varies. I have always considered myself a feminist, I just think it's important to take into account the experiences of all women. Women are not a monolithic group by any definition.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Interesting topic! I know I got jumped all over once before for saying I understand why some young women (like myself previously -bolding so I don't get jumped on again) have hesitated to call themselves feminist, simply because there's a lot of people that just didn't understand the concept, and was letting the negative connotations take over the "label" and mainly that some of the louder women of said label, could be pretty extreme and basically hypocritical in their views. Not to mention unable to see anyone elses side, even if they do agree with the basic values, saying stuff like "oh you're not a true feminist because.... etc.

It's like anything people believe in, there is always going to be a few "extremists" and those who warp the basic 'doctrine' (for lack of a better words!) into their own agenda, and that's fine. I do feel its important is to try and get the real definition and core message/values out there and not let these negative connotations take over.

The quote "If you Have a Vagina and want to be in charge of it - that makes you a feminist" may be simplistic, but it works! Because it cuts to the core of what feminism is about, women being in charge of themselves, and not having a man, government or ANYONE being in charge for them (in my view). This tagline also will perk interest of women who, as I said before might have hesitated and not understood the concept etc.

Having said that, does that mean men can't be a feminist? I think they can! Its like with anything. I may not have been born black or Asian or Jewish or Gay, but I can see the oppression, racism/sectarianism/homophobia one can experience from being in this minority, admittedly its not 1st hand and I can never *REALLY* feel how it is to be black or gay or both. But does that stop me from fighting for their equality because I'm not Gay or etc?

Anywho, hope that made some sense, its a very Interesting topic.

QTF for the bolded. Being both Jewish and gay, the support of people who can't understand the experience because they haven't experienced it first hand is very important. As long as you're not pretending to know what it's like, no reason you can't fight for equality. In fact it's very important because it means that even though it's not your lived experience you understand what the right thing is. It means that you can look past your privilege and see that not everyone is as lucky. I like your definition of feminism by the way.

[Witsec1]

Of course men can be feminists.

Part of being a feminist man means recognizing that sometimes women-only spaces are needed within feminism.

It's not rocket surgery.

[bouncyball]

I understand what you are both saying Glass Cowcatcher and deelam. It's like the many gay rights supporters who are straight. Sure they can't empathize and they don't have the experience, but their support is valuable to getting things done and I truly appreciate it. I see men identifying as feminists the same way. It's still valuable support that may make a difference.

I empathise with men who wish to be educated to the harmful ways of the patriarchy and to work towards its end, and I welcome them as allies. However, I think the distinction between 'ally' and 'feminist' is an important one. When it comes to organisation of groups and how we as women should approach the current situation, I don't think it's appropriate for a man, however well intentioned, to come along and say "well what you want to do here is..." For example, my feminist group has one group for self-identifying females for the purposes of organising, and then an educational for both genders. It's similar to how I am an anti-racist ally but walking into a community organising meeting for African Americans and saying as a white person "well here's what you guys should do" would be absolutely inappropriate, because I simply don't have the reference level to understand their issues to a sufficient extent. I can empathise but my white privilege stops me from being able to speak from experience. As gardenvarietycitizen said, it's just not my fight. I honestly think there will be a time where men and women can work closely together but from what I've seen we're not there yet.

I think that male rape victims deserve the highest standards of support, but we can't pretend the dynamics of power are the same. Women live with the knowledge (and sometimes threat, see Daniel Tosh) that men can rape them at will, partly due to physical strength and size. I have not experienced a similar rape culture for men outside of prison, which absolutely is an endemic problem worthy of its own discussion. A self-identifying female only group helps some women feel safer, and a group for self-identifying males provides a safe space that is almost niche. The rate of male on male rape is much lower than female on male, and it might be easier for a man to identify with another man about his experience.

I also want to point out that there are men who are hurt by the patriarchy, usually homosexual or non-white men. Oppression isn't a binary or a hierarchy for me, it's a Venn diagram. Intersectionality is the best tool we currently have to understanding privilege and disadvantage.

[Deleted07]

I think with me also, I grew up in a very poor area. Government housing, so I did infact see first-hand a lot of this, and my parents themselves were idiots with money. But now as a 26 yr old white female I was able to escape that poverty.

Fact remains there is a lot of people from my old school and community still there, in 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation poverty, with little to no chance of escape. That breaks my heart.

[Sinister Rouge]

I thought I was a feminist, until I read the "50 Shades" thread over in Chatter and learned that because I'm a heterosexual female dom, I can't possibly be a REAL feminist because the patriarchy completely controls me. So, that was enlightening, and now I know that despite my posession of a vagina and my wish to control it, I've been controlling it in non-feminist ways and am therefore an accomplice to the evils of patriarchy. Or something. ;)

[CanadianHippie]

I thought I was a feminist, until I read the "50 Shades" thread over in Chatter and learned that because I'm a heterosexual female dom, I can't possibly be a REAL feminist because the patriarchy completely controls me. So, that was enlightening, and now I know that despite my posession of a vagina and my wish to control it, I've been controlling it in non-feminist ways and am therefore an accomplice to the evils of patriarchy. Or something. ;)

You are only a real feminist if you possess a vagina, wish to control, wish to control the vaginas of others, and actively put down any other vagina owner for having differing opinions than you even if that differing opinion is that other possessors of vaginas have the right to control their own vaginas and no one has the right to control anyone else's vagina even in the name of "feminism".

Seriously though, some of the most misogynistic bullshit I've encountered has come from so called "radical feminists" and it makes me sick to think of people who consider themselves feminists actively fighting to oppress other women just because those other women have different preferences.

[Deleted07]

CanadianHippie":41twsfny]

You are only a real feminist if you possess a vagina, wish to control, wish to control the vaginas of others, and actively put down any other vagina owner for having differing opinions than you even if that differing opinion is that other possessors of vaginas have the right to control their own vaginas and no one has the right to control anyone else's vagina even in the name of "feminism".

Seriously though, some of the most misogynistic bullshit I've encountered has come from so called "radical feminists" and it makes me sick to think of people who consider themselves feminists actively fighting to oppress other women just because those other women have different preferences.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[gardenvarietycitizen]

There is more than one repressed minority, and as a member of more than one sometimes I feel more repressed for one thing than the other, and it varies. I have always considered myself a feminist, I just think it's important to take into account the experiences of all women. Women are not a monolithic group by any definition.

Absolutely. But there ARE some oppressive experiences shared by women due to their being women, and should be okay to organize around those experiences as a class of "women" also.

No one ever says, well, we can't have a civil rights movement for African Americans because some are women and some are men and the men have more privilege than the women so they can't unite, they can't possibly share concerns. Similar for religious groups fighting prejudice. But very often, when it comes to women, we're told that we surely can't organize as the unit group of "women" because we have to care about this and that and the other issue first, others inside the movement are worse off than you are, and surely "just being women" isn't such a big deal. And with so many women socialized to always be caring about others first all the time, those arguments can become a distraction, a sort of "divide and conquer" (even if not meant that way).

That's not to say of course that womens' experience doesn't vary or that there aren't other issues involved. But women as a unified class with grievances specific to being women (of any sort) also exists and is important.

[meda]

I don't think rad fems are trying to control other women, but I do find it depressing that when a man is insulting, condescending, and dismissive of a woman's ideas and opinions, he is patriarchal bastard. When the only true feminist in the village engages in the same behavior it's fine, because the rest of us are just silly deluded little girls who need educating.

I've said it on here before, but I'll say it again: I am a successful professional in a male dominated field, and I sure as hell didn't accomplish that because I am conventionally pretty or particularly charming. I have had to deal with a lot of sexism on they way up, done a lot of educating of male colleagues, and hopefully made things a little better for women coming behind me. I volunteer my time, donate my money, and otherwise support causes that I feel benefit women, particularly economically disadvantaged women. It really makes me angry that there are other women who don't think I have the right to call myself a feminist, or who feel the need to "enlighten" me about patriarchy, because I have been known to enjoy giving the occasional blowjob.

I also think there is a real generational divide amongst feminists which I see repeatedly played out here. I am in my mid 30's. I think women only a few years older than myself experienced much harsher and more pervasive sexism than I have had to deal with. I think that colors their view of certain situations. A woman my age or younger who has not dealt with the same type of misogyny, but who has dealt with or seen more ecconomic powerlessness, racial discrimination, or homophobia is going to view patriarchy and power issues in a very different way than an older straight woman. I don't think either view point is wrong, but I do think it's counterproductive for older feminists to be quite so dismissive of the current reality of younger women.

[mypsychoticself]

Absolutely. But there ARE some oppressive experiences shared by women due to their being women, and should be okay to organize around those experiences as a class of "women" also.

No one ever says, well, we can't have a civil rights movement for African Americans because some are women and some are men and the men have more privilege than the women so they can't unite, they can't possibly share concerns. Similar for religious groups fighting prejudice. But very often, when it comes to women, we're told that we surely can't organize as the unit group of "women" because we have to care about this and that and the other issue first, others inside the movement are worse off than you are, and surely "just being women" isn't such a big deal.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest that we shouldn't organize around the problems commonly experienced by women. I just don't think we should push aside the men who want to support us.

[Coconut Flan]

I honestly think there will be a time where men and women can work closely together but from what I've seen we're not there yet.

Some can but by no means all. A lot of it is being strong and taking power.

I was being calm about this all and thinking of instances where women are not being treated as second class citizens and then got a call about a woman who finally broke up with patriarchal bastard after nine years and is having trouble coping. So there's a set back in my thoughts of progress. How did she do it? Being around a strong minded relative of mine and two other equally strong minded women who pointed out how abusive he was and how she didn't need to take it and further for her self-esteem and safety shouldn't put up with it and needed to kick him out. I guess we have work to do until the last small minded bastard is reformed.

[So Many Lies]

I have been unwittingly supporting the patriarch. I am going to make changes. I thought I supported women but looking back, it has all been through the lens of the patriarchy.

However, I have always always been openly outraged about the phony divisive 'girlpower' crap in the media, eg breast implants are empowering! Horrible. Talk about Stockholm Syndrome.

[CanadianHippie]

I don't think rad fems are trying to control other women,

The thing is, there are rad rems on this very forum who insist that there are certain choices a woman should or shouldn't make just because they can't see themselves making that choice without catering to men.