Dillards 26 - Grifting All The Way!

[grandmadugger]

14 hours ago, BobTheWalrus said:

Okay, serious question here:  If "preaching Jesus" isn't " real missionary work", then what would you guys think of real, valid stuff for missionaries to be doing? 

Laying my cards on the table here: I am a Christian, and as far as I understand it, the entire point of being a missionary is to preach Jesus.  There should be genuine love behind it, and so in many cases that means also doing development work, teaching, medical work, running children's homes, all that kind of thing.  But the #1 purpose is to share the gospel.  So I'm really curious when I read statements like this (it's popped up several different times), and I'd love to hear some other views on this!

I should add, I'm not condoning the Dillards' work, mainly because I can't actually figure out what they ARE doing over there.

 

I raised exposed to many denominations of the Christian faith so I've been exposed to many different views on missionary work.  The ones that actually felt right with my soul were the ones that focused more on doing good deeds for those in need, showing them Jesus through the selfless acts.  I did a misscation over spring break one year.  We worked our butts off that week, some fixed homes, some worked on wells for clean drinking water, some showed the women how to sew on the machines that were donated, some helped set up gardens for food.  One group went to an orphanage with older girls, they painted their nails, gave them make up, female products, etc.  It might sound crazy but for a few days those girls were treated like queens and they loved it.  Since that time I have sent a Christmas box to the orphanage full of all the girly stuff most of us take for granted because no matter what some days a girl just wants to feel special.  We didn't preach, if someone asked we invited them to come to the services where the gospel was shared but there weren't strings attached.  If you didn't come to services someone would still be out showing/helping you the next day.

[JordynDarby5]

The only good thing about Derick and Jill's method of "missionary" is that its doom to fail and that means less people converting to their cult. I'd love though to see them trying to "convert" someone. I mean how does it go?

Jill and Derick: I can teach you about Jesus

Catholic: I already know about Jesus

Jill and Derick: If you join our cul...church you can learn all about him.

Catholic: I already know about Jesus. What are you hard of hearing? I just said I know about Jesus.

Jill and Derick: No, no you can't know already we're telling you about Jesus

Catholic: Do you want me start the birth of Jesus all the way to the end or should I just tell you the highlights? Oh wait how about the part where we were the only Christian religion for a few centuries starting with...

Jill and Derick: Let's go find someone else.

Finding someone else.

Jill and Derick: I can teach you all about Jesus

Jewish/Muslim/or all anyone else:  We know. We've heard all about Jesus.

Jill and Derick: But you can't your Jewish, your Muslim, and your I don't know what you are.

Third person: Non-Believer I don't believe in religion.

Jill and Derick: See you can't know about Jesus. We'll be happy to tell you all about our cult...church

Jewish/Muslim/Non-Believer: We are neither blind nor death and have been hearing all about Jesus for what? Centuries.

Jill and Derick: What?

Jewish/Muslin/Non-Believer: I'd say from almost the beginning. Two thousand years give or take. Give or take. You haven't exactly been quiet about it. We've heard all about Jesus. The Good News. Whether we wanted to know or not. Crosses, Churches, Missionaries, its really hard not to have hard.

Jill and Derick look confused.

Jewish/Muslim/Non-Believer: Thanks but no thanks

Jill and Derick look confuse and spot someone poor sitting outside the remains of her house. Finally someone they can convert.

Jill and Derick: We're to tell you all about Jesus and our church.

Woman: Your church

Jill and Derick are excited finally someone who they can convert: Yes we'll tell you all about Jesus and our church.

Woman: Well, this is the remains of my home after a fire do you think you could help me fix it? 

Derick: No.

Jill: Believe in Jesus is all that you need

Woman: But I need a home, a roof over my head.

Jill: Jesus will provide

Woman: How? When?

Jill: Let me tell you more about our church

Woman: Do you offer education?

Jill looks excited: Yes all about Jesus

Woman: I meant general education, maybe skills to learn for jobs

Jill: Women don't work in our church

Woman: What? Why?

Jill: its a sin! Women are suppose to only be wives and mothers

The woman is starting to give them a strange look: Okay, does your church offer any medical supplies or have a clinic or something

Derick: No

Jill: But that's okay because we teach you all about how all women need to have as many babies as they can.

Woman: What?

Jill looks excited: Yes! My mom has 19 kids. Can you believe it? That is the only medical information you need. Like say I'm a midwife so I know what I'm talking about

Woman: You a midwife? Do you have any training?

Jill looks confused: As I said the only medical information you need is to have as many babies as God gives us.

Woman looks confused: Are you special?

Jill nods: Yes!

Derick: I don't think that's the special she meant.

Woman: So let me get this straight. Your church won't help me fix my home, offers no education, and no medical clinics. The only thing it does is tell me about Jesus who I already know and information about babies that any idiot off the street can tell me?

Jill: Oh, and your husband is your headship and leader. Or your father if your not married. I mean your father until you marry and then your husband. Cause you know your a woman you have to get married.

Woman: What?

Jill nods her head: Its what God wants. That's what my Dad told me. And now my husband.

Woman: What?

Jill grins: Its great you'll love it. They always tell you want to do and what's best for you.

Woman: And how does your dad support you?

Jill: People give us free stuff all the time! They fixed our house for us, in fact we took money from people just to come down here and be missionaries.

Woman: People fixed your house?  She looks back at what remains of her house

Jill nods: Yes, a TV network called TLC or Discovery I forget which just brought in a crew to fix the house we'd been working on for a few years, they decorated it and gave us free furniture and even a piano. Before then people were always donating clothing and food to us. And we still get free stuff from everyone all the time

Woman: Wow, that's nice. Mumbles to herself about her home that needs repaired. Do you ever help people like you were helped?

Jill: I don't understand

Woman: Well, so many people worked to finish your home. Have you ever helped others in need of their homes being fixed?

Jill: No

Woman; Donate food, clothing and furniture

Jill; No.

Woman: Wow, you know if you helped people the way you were helped maybe people would be more incline to convert.

Jill: I don't understand

Woman: Or maybe not.

Jill: Our church

Woman: Offers nothing that I need help with or those who need help around here. In fact, the only thing your church seems like it would make life worse not better what with giving up all my rights as a woman and make me subservient to a man and give birth to a score of kids that can't be supported

Jill nods with a smile: Exactly, you got it! That's exactly what our church is all about.

Derick looks confused: I think she meant that as a bad thing

Woman is now annoyed: It is a bad thing. Why would I want to do that?

Jill: Because Jesus. Jesus wants that

Woman:  Jesus wants me to make a lot of really bad decisions that would make my life worse off then it is now? Instead of using the brain God gave me to try and improve my life?  Woman shakes her head. I don't think we're talking about the same one. Woman gets up. I think I'll go see if one of the shelters can help me

Derick and Jill both looked scared. But their probably ran by Catholics! Or someone equally evil!

Woman: I'll take the risk

Jill: You'll go to Hell!

Woman: I'll take the risk. Walks off still shaking her head. "All kinds of crazies come down here."

Jill turns to Derick: I think we completed our missionary work for the week.

Derick: Yeah, time to go back to vac..home until next week. Missionary is hard work.

Jill: The hardest. Can we go to Arkansas now?

Derick: Well, we still do that that donation money for plane tickets...

[PainfullyAware]

I really enjoyed the Dillard Missionary Script above But it is hard to imagine that the conversion is ... a real conversion. Maybe a lapsed Catholic goes through a difficult time and decides to give their Protestant one a try. Maybe for the sake of community or some support a not-very-religious person goes to their church. Or maybe a Protestant just decides to give their church a try.

I bet for the locals, this is just a funny kind of Church with a married minister instead of a priest and some gringo volunteers (which might be fun to check out). I bet they don't see the missionary church as being the same degree of different as the Dillards obviously see the Catholic Church. The Dillards seem to think they are barely Christian. Although I'm guessing they are mostly after non-practicing Catholics and vulnerable people open to some kind of saving.

[RosyDaisy]

Okay, serious question here:  If "preaching Jesus" isn't " real missionary work", then what would you guys think of real, valid stuff for missionaries to be doing? 
Laying my cards on the table here: I am a Christian, and as far as I understand it, the entire point of being a missionary is to preach Jesus.  There should be genuine love behind it, and so in many cases that means also doing development work, teaching, medical work, running children's homes, all that kind of thing.  But the #1 purpose is to share the gospel.  So I'm really curious when I read statements like this (it's popped up several different times), and I'd love to hear some other views on this!
I should add, I'm not condoning the Dillards' work, mainly because I can't actually figure out what they ARE doing over there.

Humanitarian aid should always be a part of missionary work. I agree, there should be genuine love. Anybody can preach the Gospel. Showing people that you care and want help them speaks louder than any sermon.

[Italiangirl]

9 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

The only good thing about Derick and Jill's method of "missionary" is that its doom to fail and that means less people converting to their cult. I'd love though to see them trying to "convert" someone. I mean how does it go?

...

You kill me! Great write, i could totaly see them do it 

[Imagine20]

In the missionary script, the Muslim would explain they know all about Jesus (pbuh) from reading the Quran. 

[Kittikatz]

As I've said before, while I'm not a fan of the whole idea of missions, I can see that those which provide material support and assistance regardless of whether people attend their church are probably a good thing.

That said, there seems to be some interesting correlations between the rise of Evangelical Christianity in the developing world and hate crimes against LGBTQ people. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/world/americas/brazil-anti-gay-violence.html?_r=0

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/10/no_to_homo_agenda_how_evangelicals_spread_anti_gay_hate_to_jamaica/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/empathy-and-relationships/201701/evangelical-christians-evangelizing-hate-must-be-stopped

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/scott-lively-anti-gay-law-uganda

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kaoma-uganda-gays-american-ministers-20140323-story.html

It really bothers me that America has begun to export intolerance. The world already has enough problems with hate without adding another strain of religiously affiliated intolerance to the mix.

[Snarkle Motion]

What I don't understand is for people who claim to want to have a personal relationship with Jesus, right? And the Catholic Church gets in the way of this because it makes you go through their cult like power structure with the pope and priests and their rules. That prevents the "personal relationship with Jesus" if I understand this correctly? 

Then why do these people continue to follow the likes of Gothard and ATI and Doug Phillips and all the other crazies? Aren't they just creating their own brand of Catholicism and preventing personal relationships with Jesus? 

[Italiangirl]

What i'm not sure to have anderstood of the Dullars and co is the line about personal relationship with jesus, i mean what they think the others do? do to the secretary? ask for an apointment? if you belive in jesus god or the spaghetti oster is obvious at least for me that you have a personal relationship with him

[formergothardite]

On 3/3/2017 at 9:15 AM, BobTheWalrus said:

Okay, serious question here:  If "preaching Jesus" isn't " real missionary work", then what would you guys think of real, valid stuff for missionaries to be doing? 

Laying my cards on the table here: I am a Christian, and as far as I understand it, the entire point of being a missionary is to preach Jesus.  There should be genuine love behind it, and so in many cases that means also doing development work, teaching, medical work, running children's homes, all that kind of thing.  But the #1 purpose is to share the gospel.  So I'm really curious when I read statements like this (it's popped up several different times), and I'd love to hear some other views on this!

I should add, I'm not condoning the Dillards' work, mainly because I can't actually figure out what they ARE doing over there.

As a non-believer who lives in the Bible belt I find most of the local mission work just offensive on every level. Especially since they tend to target children and people who are in desperate situations. Do you know what it is like to take your kid to a fun community event, think you are letting her participate in a kids activity that is there, only to discover that it is really an opportunity to try and covert kids? Would you like people to tell your kids horror stories about needing salvation and that their parents are liars? Because by attempting to convert my kid you are essentially telling her I'm a liar and to listen to them  not me. People who approach me while I'm trying to do stuff out in public are super annoying. No, I don't need your Jesus, I do need to get my groceries home.

Having worked with at risk people in my community, I've heard lots of stories about how these people feel pressured into converting because the church will help, but only if you listen to the whole "you need Jesus" speech. If the only way a church can help people is by also telling them they are going to hell, well then maybe they just have a terrible belief system. 

Non-local missions is usually really offensive. Half the time their trying to convert Christians to Christianity. And then there is barging into a region and telling people their long held beliefs are wrong. How would you like your community to be flooded with people continually telling you that everything you hold dear is bad and you need to change to their beliefs? 

It is one thing to be inspired by your religion to help others, it is another to feel like you have the One True Way, and decide to that you need to cram it down the throats of the entire world. I've gotten passed the point in my life where I'm going to be nice about people being sanctimonious. 

[Dandruff]

56 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It is one thing to be inspired by your religion to help others, it is another to feel like you have the One True Way, and decide to that you need to cram it down the throats of the entire world. I've gotten passed the point in my life where I'm going to be nice about people being sanctimonious. 

Just imagine what would happen if the people they were trying to convert arrived in their hometown and tried to do the same.

[JillyO]

(Most likely) Unpopular opinion: I think all missions are inherently wrong, and should be prohibited. Yes, that includes missions where people actually receive help. Because missions are inherently built upon the tenet that your religion is the correct one, and everyone else's religion (or lack thereof) is wrong. And I just can't get on board with that, even for missions that actually help people. Now I do think there are different degrees of "wrong" here, and the Dillards are the worst kind of missionary scum if you ask me. But at the end of the day, every mission aims to convert people to a specific religion, be it by proselytizing or just inviting locals to your church when they specifically ask you. You're still trying to get people to convert to your religion, and that's just wrong in my book.

(I understand that, at this point, missions are a necessary evil in some places because no one else is willing to open a non-profit women's clinic in rural Burundi. I just hope (and do my best) that this will change soon.)

[Palimpsest]

On the question of missionaries, a lot I wanted to say has already been covered very well but, as a former medical missionary kid, I want to add a few thoughts and opinions.

Real missionaries should be able to provide both material assistance and actual skills and expertise to the population they want to serve.  Evangelizing should take second place and services should be provided regardless of the recipients' religion.

Legitimate missionary organizations provide training, orientation, supports, and a safety net for missionaries they send into the field.  Fly-by-night individuals who want to call themselves missionaries and gallop off to foreign lands with the sole goal of proselytizing and church planting drive me up the wall.  See John Shrader who is a disgrace to the calling.  

However, even the appalling John Shrader followed the rules for an IFB missionary, packed his pop-up trailer with his kids, and went out on Deputation for a couple of years to raise funds for his idiot missionary enterprise.  The Dillards seem to think they can sit on their backsides and ask for money and it will fall into their laps.

! want to give @jakesykora a big shout out for this excellent post a few pages back:

 

I'd only add that not all legitimate missionary societies and organizations actually expect their missionaries to raise all their own funding, although many do.  My parents certainly spent a lot of time on furlough traveling to churches to do show and tell, but donations their talks raised were sent directly to the missionary societies.  They were employees of the missionary society, and went where they were sent to hospitals supported by the mission.  The mission was accountable for how and where donated money was spent.

Let's talk about accountability a bit.  As far as the connection between the Dillards and SOS Ministries goes - I find it highly suspicious.  Here's a bit more information:

The Dillard Family Ministry is listed on GuideStar as a 501(c)3 charity.  As of today, Guidestar shows both income and assets as big fat zeros.  The Dillards have never filed a Form 990, in accordance with IRS requirements for non-profits.

I can find no listing for SOS Ministries, Clearwater, FL and Mike Schadt on Guidestar - although SOS also claims to be a 501(c)3.  (Note: There are plenty of non-profits with SOS in their names but none bears any resemblance to the SOS mission in CA.)  That is weird.

About a year ago I contacted SOS (and I used my real identity).  I wrote a very polite email expressing interest in making a donation to their water projects in Africa (not true) as clean water projects are dear to my heart (very true.)  However, before making a donation I wanted:

• More information
• Their 501(c)3 # 
• A copy of their Annual Report and budget (both required by the IRS annually) and usually available on legitimate non-profit's websites or mailed to donors and potential donors on request.

SOS Ministries never contacted me back or provided that information.  I wonder why.

[Berta McGee]

 I've only known a couple of missionaries up-close-and-personal. Both of them worked their butts off. One as a nurse the other providing clean drinking water and digging toilets to keep it clean.

I completely disagree with missionaries whose purpose is to convert others. At least the two I know we're inspired by God to give to others. Jill and Derick are on a paid vacation to Central America and nothing more. They haven't even done enough to fake it on their website. I can't see how their God could even condone that especially because they can't even convince themselves.

[Bad Wolf]

@Palimpsest well, I guess we can figure out why.

Brother and SIL went to a small island in a lake in Africa when they retired. They helped set up a clinic. SIL was a nurse. They stayed a year, then set up a non profit when they returned. Went back several times.  Brother's ashes are in the church on the island with a plaque. Money donated at his funeral went to buy solar panels for the clinic. They went as a peace corps type thing, not missionaries. SIL is still keeping the charity going and doesn't take money from it.

[Fluffy14]

18 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

On the question of missionaries, a lot I wanted to say has already been covered very well but, as a former medical missionary kid, I want to add a few thoughts and opinions.

Real missionaries should be able to provide both material assistance and actual skills and expertise to the population they want to serve.  Evangelizing should take second place and services should be provided regardless of the recipients' religion.

Legitimate missionary organizations provide training, orientation, supports, and a safety net for missionaries they send into the field.  Fly-by-night individuals who want to call themselves missionaries and gallop off to foreign lands with the sole goal of proselytizing and church planting drive me up the wall.  See John Shrader who is a disgrace to the calling.  

However, even the appalling John Shrader followed the rules for an IFB missionary, packed his pop-up trailer with his kids, and went out on Deputation for a couple of years to raise funds for his idiot missionary enterprise.  The Dillards seem to think they can sit on their backsides and ask for money and it will fall into their laps.

! want to give @jakesykora a big shout out for this excellent post a few pages back:

 

I'd only add that not all legitimate missionary societies and organizations actually expect their missionaries to raise all their own funding, although many do.  My parents certainly spent a lot of time on furlough traveling to churches to do show and tell, but donations their talks raised were sent directly to the missionary societies.  They were employees of the missionary society, and went where they were sent to hospitals supported by the mission.  The mission was accountable for how and where donated money was spent.

Let's talk about accountability a bit.  As far as the connection between the Dillards and SOS Ministries goes - I find it highly suspicious.  Here's a bit more information:

The Dillard Family Ministry is listed on GuideStar as a 501(c)3 charity.  As of today, Guidestar shows both income and assets as big fat zeros.  The Dillards have never filed a Form 990, in accordance with IRS requirements for non-profits.

I can find no listing for SOS Ministries, Clearwater, FL and Mike Schadt on Guidestar - although SOS also claims to be a 501(c)3.  (Note: There are plenty of non-profits with SOS in their names but none bears any resemblance to the SOS mission in CA.)  That is weird.

About a year ago I contacted SOS (and I used my real identity).  I wrote a very polite email expressing interest in making a donation to their water projects in Africa (not true) as clean water projects are dear to my heart (very true.)  However, before making a donation I wanted:

• More information
• Their 501(c)3 # 
• A copy of their Annual Report and budget (both required by the IRS annually) and usually available on legitimate non-profit's websites or mailed to donors and potential donors on request.

SOS Ministries never contacted me back or provided that information.  I wonder why.

My personal belief is Mike Schadt and the whole SOS ministry is a tax free, vacation missionary organization. It was going to cost 800 dollars a week for a mission to Honduras. Please tell me SOS HOW that translates into sleeping on a cement floor eating beans and rice.  They are to bring their own spending money on top of this $800.  This is not about missions this is lining the pockets of the owner /director. Its a scam.

[Palimpsest]

11 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

@Palimpsest well, I guess we can figure out why.

They thought my ebil atheist cash would corrupt their Godly enterprise?

The IRS probably doesn't have the time and resources to track SOS down, and they are chump change really, but their sorry butts should be nailed to a wall.  I'm sure most of their donors don't ask awkward questions.  Fools and their money ...

Good for your brother and SIL.  That is good to hear.

 

 

[Mercer]

On 3/3/2017 at 9:15 AM, BobTheWalrus said:

Okay, serious question here:  If "preaching Jesus" isn't " real missionary work", then what would you guys think of real, valid stuff for missionaries to be doing? 

Laying my cards on the table here: I am a Christian, and as far as I understand it, the entire point of being a missionary is to preach Jesus.  There should be genuine love behind it, and so in many cases that means also doing development work, teaching, medical work, running children's homes, all that kind of thing.  But the #1 purpose is to share the gospel.  So I'm really curious when I read statements like this (it's popped up several different times), and I'd love to hear some other views on this!

"If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." -James 2:15-17

"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’" -Matthew 25:34-40

[BobTheWalrus]

On 03/03/2017 at 4:08 PM, 2manyKidzzz said:

Excellent post and great questions. From my own personal viewpoint, the problem is that they are preaching from the standpoint of a cult which is misogynistic and homophobic at the very least, and which has not allowed any of the Duggars at least, to have a decent education and the women are seriously not allowed any freedom. Also, they do not seem to have anything else to offer than this cultlike view of religion to offer. No skills and they don't even speak the language of the country they are in with any sort of ability.

Good question for intelligent debate. This is just IMO of course. 

I agree with that that.  So much of what they teach is not essential to the gospel.  Like, if you want to have eleventy babies and can handle it financially and psychologically, great.  But that isn't something Jesus taught His followers to replicate. I have a good friend who is a Christian, who is married but childless by choice, due to some health issues.  She still sees children as a blessing, and regularly tells those of us with kids how amazing we're doing as parents, but she doesn't feel she could handle children herself. It makes me sad that the Duggars and their ilk would consider her (and me for that matter, seeing as I only have 2 blessings lol) a lesser type of Christian.

[BobTheWalrus]

19 hours ago, Mercer said:

In addition to what has already been said...

The Dillards just requested $24,000 for groceries, gas, and just general puttering around - as well as, presumably, airfare for their frequent back and forth trips. They are incredibly expensive to support and spend only a portion of their time in their alleged mission field country when they don't have something better going on back home.

Imagine how far that $24,000 could go toward sending a local young person in El Salvador to seminary or Bible college instead. Think of the opportunity that could provide, not just for the recipient but for the community that could gain a permanent pastor from among their own. The best way to preach the gospel isn't just to spend massive amounts of money importing conservative Americans to do so on a temporary basis.

The Dillards may be "preaching Jesus" when they're actually in El Salvador and get around to it, but that doesn't mean they get a blank check for how much money they expend and how much time they waste. 

Yeah.  It's not as if El Salvador is a completely unreached nation.  As you say, how much further would that $24k go if it were used differently?  I've always found it helpful to try and reverse the situation and think about how it would feel if a Salvadorian came to Arkansas (for example) to share the gospel.  How would the Duggars take it?  There are times when it's appropriate for people from overseas to come and work and preach.  My own church  partners with a church in another country, and they asked us to come and do an English language camp for them.  It was their suggestion, and something they were keen to have.  So we provided that.  We could also encourage them in the Sunday meeting.  But it was very much as equals and partners, and we got as much encouragement as they did.  There was (I hope!) no hint of us being better than them because we come from a richer country. And they certainly don't need us to tell them what to do.  The cultural differences challenge both groups to expand our application of our faith, but it's a two-way thing.

3 hours ago, Berta McGee said:

 I've only known a couple of missionaries up-close-and-personal. Both of them worked their butts off. One as a nurse the other providing clean drinking water and digging toilets to keep it clean.

I completely disagree with missionaries whose purpose is to convert others. At least the two I know we're inspired by God to give to others. Jill and Derick are on a paid vacation to Central America and nothing more. They haven't even done enough to fake it on their website. I can't see how their God could even condone that especially because they can't even convince themselves.

That's the heart of my question really, because in my view if you're not converting people you're a humanitarian aid worker, not a missionary. Or let's say, trying to convert people, because you shouldn't be forcing them.

[BobTheWalrus]

6 hours ago, Italiangirl said:

What i'm not sure to have anderstood of the Dullars and co is the line about personal relationship with jesus, i mean what they think the others do? do to the secretary? ask for an apointment? if you belive in jesus god or the spaghetti oster is obvious at least for me that you have a personal relationship with him

I think they're trying to make a distinction between religion and faith; many Christians would make this distinction too. So yes, if you believe in Jesus, you probably have a personal relationship.  It's sort of hard to explain, but many religions have a set of rules which you have to follow in order to be considered "good", and you get to heaven by following those rules, or by having more good deeds than bad.  But the Christian view is that, while some people are obviously better than others, no-one is perfect.  In order to be accepted by God, we would have to keep 100% of His law 100% of the time, and that's simply not possible.  Which is why Jesus died to take our punishment, etc etc, I'm sure you know the story.  For Christians, we still want to do those good works, but we do them from gratitude and love of God, rather than in order to try and win His favour, if that makes sense? 

It's doubly odd when you think about the Duggars trying to share that message, because their faith seems to be entirely based on following rules and being monitored constantly to make sure you don't break the rules, and then covering up when someone does break the rules because they have no concept of grace, only religion.

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, Dandruff said:

Just imagine what would happen if the people they were trying to convert arrived in their hometown and tried to do the same.

Can you imagine the outrage from Christians if poor regions were flooded by Muslims offering help, but also trying to cram their beliefs down their throat? Or poor children were offered toys by another religion, but it was really trying to lure them away from Christianity? Or if they had to watch out if they took their kids out because other religions continually found sneaky ways to tell the kids to drop their parents' beliefs?

They would not think it was a nice thing. And it isn't nice when they do it. 

[jqlgoblue]

6 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

What I don't understand is for people who claim to want to have a personal relationship with Jesus, right? And the Catholic Church gets in the way of this because it makes you go through their cult like power structure with the pope and priests and their rules. That prevents the "personal relationship with Jesus" if I understand this correctly? 

Then why do these people continue to follow the likes of Gothard and ATI and Doug Phillips and all the other crazies? Aren't they just creating their own brand of Catholicism and preventing personal relationships with Jesus? 

Not exactly. Catholicism has the Pope and the trinity which both get in the way of going straight to Jesus. Having a personal relationship with Jesus isn't simply believing in him, it is having an ongoing conversation with him in your head at all times whereas in Catholicism you go through clergy (priests take your confessions). The conversation with Jesus goes something like "Hey Jesus, what do you think about XYZ? I was thinking A might be ok and Jesus replies, well I'm not so sure ... I would do B". (You can imagine a conversation between Michael Bates and Jesus about why she doesn't have a baby yet, and all the things he tells her she is doing wrong / needs to do better). It's interesting b/c in theory this type of dialog would/could lead to more 'moral' decisions on the part of people who have this relationship with him (or Him).

In Catholicism, it's my understanding, that it is more about deeds than beliefs or 'relationships' or evangelizing and so a Catholic Missionary would likely be a nurse, teacher, construction worker, etc. in a place of need vs. a proselytizing one (though I think there are now Evangelical Catholics, I believe Mike Pence is one). Generally though, Catholics believe that when they show up to the pearly gates that God will look positively on them for their good deeds, good work and general morality (though believing matters too). Where as an evangelical believes that when they show up at the pearly gates Jesus will judge them on the number of people they converted (and how hard it was to convert them, it is my understanding that a Jew gets you many more points than a Catholic!) and how strong their relationship was with him. They are actually quite different life goals, so to speak.

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Can you imagine the outrage from Christians if poor regions were flooded by Muslims offering help, but also trying to cram their beliefs down their throat? Or poor children were offered toys by another religion, but it was really trying to lure them away from Christianity? Or if they had to watch out if they took their kids out because other religions continually found sneaky ways to tell the kids to drop their parents' beliefs?

They would not think it was a nice thing. And it isn't nice when they do it. 

They'd be arrested.

[mdatca]

On 2/17/2017 at 1:14 PM, Snarkle Motion said:

Why don't they move to Laredo? Derick can do "weekly" missionary work across the border. Jill will have family close by. I'm sure that Jeremy and Jinger wouldn't  love this idea ...but it makes the most sense to me. Derick can be a pretend missionary and use his Spanish skills. Jill will have family close by. Maybe Jim Bob can invest in property in the Laredo area for them. I don't know why I care about them or am thinking about this...

And Derek can work a job at least part time to help support his family.  Personally I do not understand the need to travel to another country with babies when there are plenty of places within a day or 2 drive from her family (who she obviously needs support from).   Ben seems to have been able to find people in need that are much closer to home.