Michael and Brandon Keilen

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, RoseWilder said:

I notice that all of the married Bates and Duggar kids seem to make attempts to cook things that are healthier than the Cream of Crap discount food they were raised on. They must have been so sick of overly-salty-packaged food by they time they reached adulthood. 

Part of that could also be due to their newfound access to social media as well. Pinterest has a ton of amazing recipes and you can specifically look for healthier meals. It must be awesome for a Fundie to go on there for the first time and realize how expansive the culinary world is - that Cream of Crap Casserole isn't the only thing you can actually make for a family.

And while I like to poke fun at some of the attempts (looking at you Jessa!) I do also give them credit for trying to cook healthier meals than what they were raised on. It'll be interesting to wait and see who sticks with it and who goes back to the Dump and Cook method - and whether the amount of kids they have plays a role in that.

[Italiangirl]

Well maybe is just a hope but do you think is possibile that some of the start to use internet for fine new recipe and end with made some search about them faith? And maybe, not estate, but become more moderate? 

[VelociRapture]

27 minutes ago, Italiangirl said:

Well maybe is just a hope but do you think is possibile that some of the start to use internet for fine new recipe and end with made some search about them faith? And maybe, not estate, but become more moderate? 

I wouldn't rule it out entirely. I do think a great deal depends on other factors - like how happy they really are with their lifestyle and how curious they are as well. I don't see Erin or Michael (or any of the Bates daughters really) being curious or unhappy enough to seriously question anything they were raised to believe - or even question it at a more normal level either. Same with the Duggar daughters for the most part.

I mean, you look at Faith Pennington and you could clearly see she was deeply unhappy and curious about life outside her parents' control. She had the motivation and determination to escape, something often beaten out of these kids entirely. You don't see that too much with the Duggar daughters or with the Bates daughters either. I think, for the most part, they're happy enough with their lives to not feel the need to search for other answers.

[HereticHick]

Do we think that Brandon and Michael were in town to attend the Neely-Staddon snoozearama wedding? It would have been less than 3 hours away from the Bates.

PS What I really want to know is--did Ashley attend as Nathan's date?

[RoseWilder]

1 hour ago, Italiangirl said:

Well maybe is just a hope but do you think is possibile that some of the start to use internet for fine new recipe and end with made some search about them faith? And maybe, not estate, but become more moderate? 

I think it's possible. I think since the Bates kids all have regular contact with family members who are not as Fundie as they are might make them start to question. Then they get access to the Internet and Boom, they could discover all kinds of things. 

[Coconut Flan]

I think the Bates offspring might venture as far as attending a regular SBC church.  The Duggars sort of do the same. 

[picklepizzas]

On 7/17/2016 at 6:15 PM, VelociRapture said:

I wouldn't be surprised if that's what Erin did actually. I remember people joking about her not being a great cook, but on the new show she seems to have improved. So improving her cooking skills, finishing Clown College, and her music could have filled her time well.

Michael likely has had her coursework to help fill her time, along with acclimating to her new area at first. I wouldn't be surprised if she spent time with other wives of HQ employees either. Maybe she helps watch the kids of HQ employees during the day too.

Alyssa is the only one of the Bateses that stumps me here - Whitney got pregnant immediately with Bradley, so I'm not going to count her in this. I'm guessing part of that time was spent acclimating to her new life and town. She likely got pregnant about two months after her wedding though, so she wouldn't have needed to fill a huge amount of time before finding out she was pregnant.

ha - this reminds me of watching some episode in the first season where alyssa was being interviewed about why she didn't have a job or go to school or make any effort to fill her time productively and she was just like *shrug* well i'd just quit once i have a baby anyways so why bother, and i remember being like   so...do you just sit around all day watching the baby grow? 

[VelociRapture]

21 minutes ago, picklepizzas said:

ha - this reminds me of watching some episode in the first season where alyssa was being interviewed about why she didn't have a job or go to school or make any effort to fill her time productively and she was just like *shrug* well i'd just quit once i have a baby anyways so why bother, and i remember being like   so...do you just sit around all day watching the baby grow? 

To be fair, I left my job late last year without having any kids at home. I did so, however, because the job literally was not worth the drive and because I was going to watch my nephew for a bit after he was born. Plus, we really wanted a dog and didn't feel right leaving furball in a crate for more than 9 hours during the work day.

I've found out I was pregnant twice this year - one ended in miscarriage - and after talking it over with my husband I won't be returning to work even though our baby isn't due until January. Getting a job now honestly makes no sense since I was going to be a stay-at-home mom anyways (at least until our kids are older; we plan to reasses at that point.) Had I not gotten pregnant so soon after my miscarriage, I likely would have gotten a part-time job close to home. 

So I can kind of understand what Alyssa was saying, especially because she got pregnant so soon after their wedding. She does help John clean offices as a side job, so she wasn't entirely idle during that period of time. But I do wonder what she did all day long while John was at his main job. 

(Even if all she did was relax all day, I can't really fault her for that. She, and her sisters, seem to have done a shitload of work to keep their family somewhat functional for the majority of their lives. I almost feel like a few months of downtime is well earned in her case. Same with a lot of other Fundie daughters.)

[RoseWilder]

Based on her Instagram pictures from that time (and I hate myself a little bit for even knowing any of this), Alyssa seemed to spend a lot of time going to thrift stores to buy house stuff and then decorating the house. I also remember a picture of her working on thank you notes, and since the Bates and Duggars both seem to invite 1,000 to 2,000 people to their weddings, I would imagine the thank you notes alone would keep a person busy for at least a month. I remember pictures from her FIL's campaign and a ton of Starbucks pictures. It doesn't sound like an incredibly productive life, but I think a person could fill up their daytime with laundry, cleaning, thank you notes and Starbucks runs, taking selfies and fixing their hair/make-up. 

I would like to think that instead she spent that time reading books, meeting people who aren't Fundies, exploring new ideas, etc. But she probably just shopped, drank coffee, wrote thank you notes and fixed her hair. 

[Melissa1977]

20 hours ago, Italiangirl said:

Well maybe is just a hope but do you think is possibile that some of the start to use internet for fine new recipe and end with made some search about them faith? And maybe, not estate, but become more moderate? 

There's a stadistic that proves that most of cult kids doesn't stay in the cult as adults. I don't have a link but it has been stated in this forum before. If that's true, most of Bates, Duggars, etc won't stay gothardites and will live in a lighter way. It doesn't mean they'll change everything, they can still be fundie, but not in the extreme. I suspect it's happening already and it's going more evident as time goes by. Couples with few kids, going to mainstream churches and taking kids to school (and even accepting daughters going to real college), it's probable. It doesn't mean they publicy shout against cult (as Daniel Keller or his brother in law Joshua). Maybe most of them won't even realise how the cult has damage them. Maybe some of them only will choose a fundie lite way because are practical people who wants to live better than their parents (like Alyssa). 

So yes, some will break and become non-fundies and most will remain fundie lites. A ver few will remain in the hole, specially now that Gothard is over. 

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

There's a stadistic that proves that most of cult kids doesn't stay in the cult as adults. I don't have a link but it has been stated in this forum before. If that's true, most of Bates, Duggars, etc won't stay gothardites and will live in a lighter way. It doesn't mean they'll change everything, they can still be fundie, but not in the extreme. I suspect it's happening already and it's going more evident as time goes by. Couples with few kids, going to mainstream churches and taking kids to school (and even accepting daughters going to real college), it's probable. It doesn't mean they publicy shout against cult (as Daniel Keller or his brother in law Joshua). Maybe most of them won't even realise how the cult has damage them. Maybe some of them only will choose a fundie lite way because are practical people who wants to live better than their parents (like Alyssa). 

So yes, some will break and become non-fundies and most will remain fundie lites. A ver few will remain in the hole, specially now that Gothard is over. 

Gothard may be over, but his beliefs and ideas are still alive and well. I find it even less likely that the Bates kids will stray far now - their father (and Erin's father-in-law) is on the Board after all and he helps decide what happens within IBLP.

There may be statistics relating to  how likely a child is to leave - but personally, I do think someone unhappy with the lifestyle is far more likely to leave in general. The Bates kids don't appear to be unhappy - they could be and are just able to hide it well, but overall the cult lifestyle has been relatively good to them. The people most likely to leave are the ones still living in poverty and still being abused regularly - they are the ones who quietly question the way things are and are curious about the outside world.

The Bates kids likely don't live in poverty anymore thanks to the show and Gil's Board position - plus, they have four less kids to feed and house thanks to marriage. If Tori married soon then that will be five less kids to worry about. 

I doubt they're abused physically on a regular basis - I could see mental and emotional abuse still being an issue. You can easily persuade or order a "well-trained" child to conceal those types of abuse, whereas physical marks can be tougher to hide.

They also have access to the outside world on a regular basis now - part of that is necessity because they needed their kids working to help feed the family, but they aren't sequestered away from everything worldly anymore. So the curiosity they may have had to rebelliously explore that world may not be as strong as it would be for a child from another family that does severely limit their access to the outside world.

And I haven't seen any of the kids (especially the married ones) ask serious questions regarding their actual beliefs - Alyssa's wardrobe choices and desire to limit her family size are well within IBLP guidelines, Whitney has fallen in line with their beliefs startlingly fast, Zach ran for local office on a disgustingly over the top conservative platform, Michael married a HQ employee who appears to be highly commited to their beliefs, and Erin (who has the most reason to question certain teachings) seems as commited as ever.

I'm not saying it's completely impossible that some of them will leave. No matter how hard their parents tried to mold them into little clones, each kid is different and has different tolerance levels and life goals. I just don't see any of them leaving anytime soon - and if they do, it won't be a dramatic breaking away ala Faith Pennington where they reject everything and anything they were raised to believe.

And I don't recall Josh Duggar ever saying anything against the cult - unless there's another Keller son-in-law who has publicly spoken out against it (totally possible - I lose track of the in-laws for the various families sometimes.) I mean, he did things that are big no-no's, but he clearly did them without intending to be found out and he has never blatantly spoken against the cult as far as I know.

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

There's a stadistic that proves that most of cult kids doesn't stay in the cult as adults. I don't have a link but it has been stated in this forum before. If that's true, most of Bates, Duggars, etc won't stay gothardites and will live in a lighter way. It doesn't mean they'll change everything, they can still be fundie, but not in the extreme. I suspect it's happening already and it's going more evident as time goes by. Couples with few kids, going to mainstream churches and taking kids to school (and even accepting daughters going to real college), it's probable. It doesn't mean they publicy shout against cult (as Daniel Keller or his brother in law Joshua). Maybe most of them won't even realise how the cult has damage them. Maybe some of them only will choose a fundie lite way because are practical people who wants to live better than their parents (like Alyssa). 

So yes, some will break and become non-fundies and most will remain fundie lites. A ver few will remain in the hole, specially now that Gothard is over. 

Without a link I can't critique the study and methodology and there are lies, damned lies, and   statistics.  Statistics can be used to "prove" anything if you try hard enough, and they can be pulled out of your ass as Ken Alexander likes to do.  Hi Ken.  

There are really not any reliable studies on people leaving cults - they all have limitations and admit it.  Here is a good article about the challenges of studying cults.

 http://www.icsahome.com/articles/research-on-destructive-cults-langone

As far as Gothardism and IBLP go - Recovering Grace would be an interesting group of survivors in recovery to study.  I'm not sure what their membership is, a lot of them want to stay anonymous, and it is mostly anecdata there unfortunately.  IBLP is never going to provided us with exact numbers.  All we know is that their donations and membership seem to have gone down radically.

If you look at what the Fundies themselves say - some of them are worried about retention - or are exaggerating a lot in order to scare the faithful into sheltering and isolating their children more.  The completely unreliable Western Conservatory of Botkin fame provides us with this glorious piece of propaganda about Homeschooling.  http://westernconservatory.com/products/homeschool-dropouts. It goes without saying - don't believe it. 

John Shrader cited a statistic once that 50% of the second generation leave the fold. Of course, he didn't say where his statistic came from.  In his own family, it looks like 80% of his siblings stepped away from Daddy's faith - power to them!  He himself is no longer Gothardite - he's actually gone in the other direction and his (and Daddy's) IFB crap is even Fundier than most Gothardites.

The Kellers have a poor retention rate too.  Out of eight, Daniel, Rebekah, and Suze all stepped away.  Daniel and Rebekah, like Esther Keller Shrader, still identify as conservative Christian but not Gothardite. I get the impression that Suze and Rebekah may be returning to IBLP, however.  I hope not.

Then you look at other Fundie families, not just the Gothardites, like the S'Mortons, Maxwells, Botkins, Phillipses, and the second generation still appears deeply Fundie.  It is really hard to tell how many will leave - it would be great if most do move away.

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

Gothard may be over, but his beliefs and ideas are still alive and well. I find it even less likely that the Bates kids will stray far now - their father (and Erin's father-in-law) is on the Board after all and he helps decide what happens within IBLP.

Absolutely!  Gothard may have been dumped but Gothardism and IBLP are far from over.  That is like saying Scientology was over when David Miscavige deposed L Ron Hubbard.

The Bateses are at the very pinnacle of the IBLP dung heap at the moment and seem happy to be there.  I'm not optimistic about their chances of leaving at all.  They have every incentive to stay and enjoy the perks.

[Melissa1977]

@VelociRapture it's Joshua, former husband of Rebeka Keller. He spoke against the cult despite he was respectful about his parents-in-law.

 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

@VelociRapture it's Joshua, former husband of Rebeka Keller. He spoke against the cult despite he was respectful about his parents-in-law.

 

Gotcha! Thanks for letting me know. I get the offspring and spouses confused in a lot of these families - there are so many of them to keep track of! 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

@VelociRapture it's Joshua, former husband of Rebeka Keller. He spoke against the cult despite he was respectful about his parents-in-law.

 

 

16 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Gotcha! Thanks for letting me know. I get the offspring and spouses confused in a lot of these families - there are so many of them to keep track of! 

It's because they all pull from the same pool of Biblical names - at least for the males.

Josh MacDonald (Rebekah's former husband, although I don't think the divorce is final yet) was the one who posted on TWOP about Josh Duggar's wedding.   I've reposted that statement a couple of times here.  He identifies as conservative Christian and against Gothard, but he definitely defended Pa Keller.  He has also posted on RG in his own name.  He and Rebekah helped Suze when she was pregnant and were never estranged from the Keelers, AKAIK.

Suzanna and babe seem to have been accepted back into the Keller orbit.  She was shunned for some time.

Daniel Keller and his wife Candice were estranged from the Kellers for quite a while too.  She wasn't nearly Fundie enough for them.  They seem to have been accepted back into the family again after they adopted a child.  Daniel wants to kick Josh Dugger's teeth down his throat (not his exact words) and I greatly sympathize.

There is a younger brother David as well as son-in-law David Waller.  It must get confusing.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

 

It's because they all pull from the same pool of Biblical names - at least for the males.

Josh MacDonald (Rebekah's former husband, although I don't think the divorce is final yet) was the one who posted on TWOP about Josh Duggar's wedding.   I've reposted that statement a couple of times here.  He identifies as conservative Christian and against Gothard, but he definitely defended Pa Keller.  He has also posted on RG in his own name.  He and Rebekah helped Suze when she was pregnant and were never estranged from the Keelers, AKAIK.

Suzanna and babe seem to have been accepted back into the Keller orbit.  She was shunned for some time.

Daniel Keller and his wife Candice were estranged from the Kellers for quite a while too.  She wasn't nearly Fundie enough for them.  They seem to have been accepted back into the family again after they adopted a child.  Daniel wants to kick Josh Dugger's teeth down his throat (not his exact words) and I greatly sympathize.

There is a younger brother David as well as son-in-law David Waller.  It must get confusing.

And I thought I had it bad with a father and BIL sharing a name... As well as a FIL and BIL sharing a name... And a brother and Grandpa sharing a name (nickname for Grandpa.) 

[RosyDaisy]

@Palimpsest What gives you the impression Susanna Keller may be returning to IBLP? Honest curious question? Not doubting you.

[sophie10130]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

And I thought I had it bad with a father and BIL sharing a name... As well as a FIL and BIL sharing a name... And a brother and Grandpa sharing a name (nickname for Grandpa.) 

I feel like that's the only thing fundies and my family have in common.

My mom and my Dad's sister have the same name. My dad and his dad and my brother have the same name. My brother's nickname, so he doesn't get confused with my dad, is the same name as my dad's cousin. My sister and my aunt have the same name. My aunt and my grandma have the same name. My aunt and second cousin. My cousin and great aunt. And my grandpa, uncle, and his son all have the same name. There's more, but those are the ones we deal with on a regular basis.

Is there a passing out emoji?

[accountingstar]

On 7/18/2016 at 9:54 AM, HereticHick said:

Do we think that Brandon and Michael were in town to attend the Neely-Staddon snoozearama wedding? It would have been less than 3 hours away from the Bates.

PS What I really want to know is--did Ashley attend as Nathan's date?

You can watch the entire wedding on YouTube:

Robert Staddon didn't post any photos of the wedding on his Instagram account.

Her family's blog hasn't posted any photos either: http://theneelyteam.com/

Only their engagement photos are posted on their blog: http://danielloveskathryn.com/photos/

Happy hunting to see if Brandon and Michael went to the wedding.

 

[kjmackin]

4 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

I feel like that's the only thing fundies and my family have in common.

My mom and my Dad's sister have the same name. My dad and his dad and my brother have the same name. My brother's nickname, so he doesn't get confused with my dad, is the same name as my dad's cousin. My sister and my aunt have the same name. My aunt and my grandma have the same name. My aunt and second cousin. My cousin and great aunt. And my grandpa, uncle, and his son all have the same name. There's more, but those are the ones we deal with on a regular basis.

Is there a passing out emoji?

If me and hubby didn't choose to be childfree the #1 naming requirement was that nobody living or within 2 generations names were completely off limits. For me personally family members with the same name are way to confusing in order to keep in contact. Hell I have trouble keeping track of friends with samiler names that I put locations of what & where I knew them from. 

 

Example I have 3 Kevin's & 10 Sarah's in my phone. Each one has there first & last name, & either school, major,club, or job used as a identifier next to it. 

[Palimpsest]

16 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

@Palimpsest What gives you the impression Susanna Keller may be returning to IBLP? Honest curious question? Not doubting you.

I should have said fear not impression.  I don't know really but the situation makes me uneasy.  I suppose I'm afraid that "sinful" Suze might not have welcomed back into the family unless she had been coerced into repenting her supposed sins.  The same with Rebekah's getting a divorce, although we don't know who initiated that and it doesn't seem to be finalized yet.  The Keller parents are pretty hardcore IBLP.  They are very unlikely to approve of divorce and probably blame Rebekah.  

18 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

And I thought I had it bad with a father and BIL sharing a name... As well as a FIL and BIL sharing a name... And a brother and Grandpa sharing a name (nickname for Grandpa.) 

Your brother's name is Gramps?   

 

[season of life]

I'm afraid of Susanna and Rebekah coming back too. I'm sure Susanna likes her freedom and remembers how stifling her childhood was, but Rebekah is going through a divorce and probably does want some support. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 hours ago, season of life said:

I'm afraid of Susanna and Rebekah coming back too. I'm sure Susanna likes her freedom and remembers how stifling her childhood was, but Rebekah is going through a divorce and probably does want some support. 

But they must have non fundie friends for support. They've been out of the cult for awhile living pretty ordinary lives. And I suppose they have each other. 

[Pretzel]

I don't think either of them is going to join IBLP again. Suze lives in 'sin' with her boyfriend and their kid(s), works and appears to enjoy her life as it is. Rebekkah, on the other hand, is a very private person who won't let the public know about her goings-on. Everything else is just idle speculation on our part. I had a feeling once that maybe she wanted to drift further away from conservative Christianity than her (ex-)husband, who seems to be greatly involved in the faith, though not in a cult as far as we know. However, that's just an impression I had and doesn't say anything about what really happened between the two of them. They have two girls and never had more children, though Joshua McD. said they were not opposed to the idea at the time of Josh D. and Anna's wedding. It's safe to say they never bought into quiverfull. Rumor has it that Rebekkah initiated the divorce. If that is true she actually committed one of the biggest sins in her parents' world. All of that speaks for them not buying into IBLP principles again. Esther Shrader, the oldest, is a fundie of high-degree and quiverfull poster-child, and still has no ties to the same cult as her parents. 

 Snarkers may forget that we're talking about people here, humans with feelings. It's normal for everyone to want that sense of belonging to a family. It's possible that all of them have taken a step of forgiveness for the family's sake. We don't know until they speak out and say otherwise. Many of them are part of one cult or the other, others are living secular lives. This does not rule out the likelihood of them loving each other and having made that a priority. Suzette, a.k.a. Ma Keller, seemed to enjoy taking care of her grandchild Noelle a lot, even though Susanna had had  her out of wedlock and lived with her non-fundie sister at the time. Daniel and Candice appear to enjoy spending time with Priscilla and David, though they're far away from being in a cult while David is working at HQ. You can be accepting of your fundie family and love them while not buying into their believes. Not all fundies are shunning people with different believes or are unaccepting of non-fundie family, either. I'm saying that, and I am hardly a fundie apologist.

 

[Melissa1977]

Suzanna and Rebeka Keller are not back in IBLP. Suze is living out of wedlock and Rebeka is very private, but she published pictures of her eldest at school and she seemed very proud of it. Maybe they have secretly returned to IBLP, but there's no proof of that.

I deeply dislike Keller parents, but they seem to love their children no matter their way of life, and it's a good thing.