Sin = Chicken Pox

[Vex]

heart4home - I guess I'll ask you the same question I just posted in my first post.

You were/are obviously a very observant Christian, which I am going to assume meant you frequently read the Bible and were very familiar with it.

There are countless passages on the 'sin nature' of humans, and the fact that God loves humans with all their imperfections in spite of that. After all, he sent his only son to die a horrible death for the sake of sinners. How can you equate that God with a God who deliberately strikes down people with illness to punish them for their sins? Did you put more stock in the Old Testament, where God sent plagues and such? Even then, he never punished his chosen people with those same plagues.

I'll never understand it when fundies, who seem to place so much more importance in the New Testament, seem to forget everything about forgiveness and love and God being good in favour of seeing him as some tyrant who should be utterly feared. If you have to put the fear of God into your kids or yourself to keep the faith, that faith isn't genuine.

Hve you read all the rules and introduction for the site? That should explain why Experiencedd is responding the way she is. We question religion and don't have much time for people who aren't prepared to question their beliefs or be challenged. We absolutely want people of faith whether they're fundies or not to contribute here (we're not all atheists, there are a wide range of people from all kinds of religious backgrounds with all sorts of beliefs here, running the gamut from atheists to agnostics to lapsed Catholics to orthodox Jews to ex- or current Christian fundamentalists and all things in between), but you have to expect to be challenged on religious issues if you bring them up. Nobody uses kid gloves here.

[heart4home]

Experiencedd i am new and not trying to get off on the wrong foot. I am also not attempting to be amusing or any of the other things you said.

I am interested in this forum because of several reasons one being that I am trying to figure out what my own beliefs are apart from what I was taught, and I am trying to understand what other beliefs are out there. I have always been a person who accepts what she was taught without really questioning it, but now I want to figure things out for myself more, I mean even if I end up believing the same things as before, at least I'll come to the conclusion on my own.

I am also trying to figure out what I want to do with my life and what I could do.

Another reason I am here is what I said before about fundys, I am not sure what makes a fundy because I just grew up seeing various "degrees" of Christianity and I never heard the term fundy so I want to learn more and find out if I was a fundy or what.

I am just here to figure things out and learn more. I thoughts in my posts I was just explaining what I've been taught, I was not trying to tell you or anyone else what to believe. *I* don't even know what *I* believe. Like I said I'm just trying to figure things out and I was answering questions.

[DarkAnts]

heart4home - I guess I'll ask you the same question I just posted in my first post.

You were/are obviously a very observant Christian, which I am going to assume meant you frequently read the Bible and were very familiar with it.

There are countless passages on the 'sin nature' of humans, and the fact that God loves humans with all their imperfections in spite of that. After all, he sent his only son to die a horrible death for the sake of sinners. How can you equate that God with a God who deliberately strikes down people with illness to punish them for their sins? Did you put more stock in the Old Testament, where God sent plagues and such? Even then, he never punished his chosen people with those same plagues.

I'll never understand it when fundies, who seem to place so much more importance in the New Testament, seem to forget everything about forgiveness and love and God being good in favour of seeing him as some tyrant who should be utterly feared. If you have to put the fear of God into your kids or yourself to keep the faith, that faith isn't genuine.

Hve you read all the rules and introduction for the site? That should explain why Experiencedd is responding the way she is. We question religion and don't have much time for people who aren't prepared to question their beliefs or be challenged. We absolutely want people of faith whether they're fundies or not to contribute here (we're not all atheists, there are a wide range of people from all kinds of religious backgrounds with all sorts of beliefs here, running the gamut from atheists to agnostics to lapsed Catholics to orthodox Jews to ex- or current Christian fundamentalists and all things in between), but you have to expect to be challenged on religious issues if you bring them up. Nobody uses kid gloves here.

:clap:

[heart4home]

Ok I don't want to sound ignorant but I feel kind of confused because I'm not sure what I did, really I thought I was just sharing my past experience with these beliefs and then answering the questions asked to me. As I said the reason I became interested in his board is because I wanted to find out what else was out there and figure out who I am and what I can do in my life. I read the newbie thread already and just lurked the boards for a while to see what it was like here, I thought I was ready to post.

[Witsec7]

Experiencedd i am new and not trying to get off on the wrong foot. I am also not attempting to be amusing or any of the other things you said.

I am interested in this forum because of several reasons one being that I am trying to figure out what my own beliefs are apart from what I was taught, and I am trying to understand what other beliefs are out there. I have always been a person who accepts what she was taught without really questioning it, but now I want to figure things out for myself more, I mean even if I end up believing the same things as before, at least I'll come to the conclusion on my own.

I am also trying to figure out what I want to do with my life and what I could do.

Another reason I am here is what I said before about fundys, I am not sure what makes a fundy because I just grew up seeing various "degrees" of Christianity and I never heard the term fundy so I want to learn more and find out if I was a fundy or what.

I am just here to figure things out and learn more. I thoughts in my posts I was just explaining what I've been taught, I was not trying to tell you or anyone else what to believe. *I* don't even know what *I* believe. Like I said I'm just trying to figure things out and I was answering questions.

Sadly you've mistaken FJ for a support group. Find comfort in knowing you aren't the first.

Vex is waiting for you to answer her questions. ( I presumed gender Vex forgive me if I am wrong.)

[heart4home]

No, I didn't think this was a board for a support group. That wasn't what I was looking for. I don't expect (or want) to be treated with kid gloves.

I did read the newbie stuff, and lurked a while, but I probably didn't lurk long enough to really pick up on everything.

[Vex]

The 'fundies' we talk about ('Fundie' being shorthand for Fundamentalist Christian) are generally identified by the following:

- They homeschool so their kids aren't exposed to secular ideas like birth control, sex ed and evolution. They generally only mingle with fellow Christian homeschoolers.

- They dress 'modestly', so that means dresses or skirts that fall below the knee (usually to the ankle or floor, though) for girls and long trousers for boys. Some more liberal fundies don't follow this rule and allow girls to wear pants, but the ones we discuss here mostly enforce the strict wearing of dresses and skirts. A typical fundie 'uniform' would be long, shapeless jumpers for the women and long pants with belts and tucked-in shirts for the men.

- They eschew birth control of any kind. Because of this, they usually have massive families. They might be part of the 'quiverfull' movement, or they might just be doing it because they've decided for themselves that any birth control is wrong. You can usually tell if they're QF because they'll refer to the passage of the bible the movement takes its name from (Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.) and refer to their children as 'arrows' and the family as their 'quiver'.

- They only believe in the King James Bible. No other version is acceptable.

- They usually either home church or meet with several other like-minded families to worship.

- They believe in a system of patriarchy within the home where the father is the head of the household and the mother must submit utterly to him. Girls are given female household responsibilities (caring for siblings, cleaning, cooking) and are expected to stay at home under their father's authority until the father finds or gives permission for a suitable boy to court his daughter and marry her, at which time his authority will be transferred to the husband and the girl will be expected to be a wife and mother.

Boys have to do things like chopping wood and other 'manly' chores. They are expected to start their own business or work in a family business (it's unacceptable for them to work in the secular world) and find a wife who they will have complete authority over.

There are other things, but those are the main ones. There are also other fundies we talk about who are from other Christian denominations or are LDS and so forth. They still usually have all the same qualities (minus the KJV bibles).

That should clear a few things up for you.

I would really love it if you could answer the questions I posed to you. I wasn't being snarky, I am genuinely curious about your thought process.

And Experiencedd presumes correctly :)

[heart4home]

Yes, Vex, I'll answer. Yes, I've read the Bible...a lot. And I don't know how to answer the rest of what you said about reconciling a loving New Testament God with an angry Old Testament God... because I've never had it put that way to me before. It's as if you are talking about two different Gods. I don't know. I've never had to think about that because it never even occured to me.

(and there you have it..why I like it here..things I had never even thought of before, never crossed my mind, and now i have to think about it myself and figure out what I believe).

Thank you for the fundie description. That answered a lot for me. Like I guess in many ways we were fundy but not in each of the ways..maybe fundy-lite I guess, since we don't meet every requirement.

[Witsec7]

Yes, Vex, I'll answer. Yes, I've read the Bible...a lot. And I don't know how to answer the rest of what you said about reconciling a loving New Testament God with an angry Old Testament God... because I've never had it put that way to me before. It's as if you are talking about two different Gods. I don't know. I've never had to think about that because it never even occured to me.

(and there you have it..why I like it here..things I had never even thought of before, never crossed my mind, and now i have to think about it myself and figure out what I believe).

Thank you for the fundie description. That answered a lot for me. Like I guess in many ways we were fundy but not in each of the ways..maybe fundy-lite I guess, since we don't meet every requirement.

How old are you?

Were you home schooled?

Do you wear modest clothing as described by Vex?

What Christian denomination do you belong to?

How many siblings do you have?

[Vex]

Thank you for responding. Experiencedd is asking some great questions, if you were to tell us more about yourself and your upbringing it would help us understand where you're coming from a lot better. Religion can really screw around with a person's sense of identity when they've grown up seeing themselves as a Christian before anything else, and it sounds like that might be the case for you.

I don't see the God of the New and Old Testaments as a different entity, but the tone of the two testaments is definitively very different. It's only natural, since the Bible has many different authors and has been repeatedly revised and translated over century after century. It's only natural for there to be inconsistencies. I take it all as one book, but fundies seem to only be interested in the New Testament where God is unambiguously loving and forgiving, hence my lack of understanding as to why they insist he's vengeful and stern.

I think the problem some of us have with what you're telling us is that you just accepted whatever you encountered without questioning it. You said that it's just the way you are, and it obviously wasn't your father who encouraged that, so I think many of us are wondering how you came to be that way.

For example, I was a Christian when I was growing up. I attended a Christian school (although it wasn't very heavy-handed with the religion) but I pursued my interest in the bible on my own. If I came across something that I didn't understand, I would go to the reverend and ask him. He was always very encouraging, so I never thought twice about questioning religious doctrine that didn't make sense to me.

It's generally our experiences that mould us into who we are, and it makes me wonder what experiences made you accept information without question. After all, most people have some innate sense of curiosity (and kids have a lot), and people have to learn not to question things, usually by way of negative reinforcement. It's one of the techniques fundies use to keep their children in line and stop them from straying.

The fact that you didn't really know about science leads me to believe you were homeschooled, since even at a Christian school you would have been made to take general sciences and probably at least biology specifically. All in all, your life really interests me from the little you have revealed, and I'd like to know more.

It's healthy to question religion and understandable to question your own identity if you've been living through your religion for a long time and suddenly you aren't sure about it. I suggest that you find some first year college textbooks on comparative religions to learn about the other major world religions and philosophies (as well as Christianity from a scholastic perspective), and maybe cruise through wiki and read about other denominations of Christianity. If you still want to be Christian and just aren't sure what kind of Christian, I've read that it helps to go to a lot of different churches and just see what they have to offer.

[itsnikki05]

I don't understand how NONE of these people paid attention to the book of Job.

I know, right? Also... how dumb can ya get? Most people get Chicken Pox! A lot of them are children, and dang! It's not a curse or because you sinned. It's just because. It's just one of those things. Crazy woman.

ETA: She's so PRETTY and dresses really cute... I almost see what she is trying to say but it was a poor way to word it imo. And... yeah. *shrug*

[heart4home]

I'm 27, youngest of 4, going to a non-denominational church, i wanted to find my own church to go to so this is the first year ive been going by myself to a different church than them, my parents go to a different church with families they've known forever (they haven't been going to that church long but it was the church they went to when they were newly married and they have known the people forever, it's not the church us kids grew up in though) my parents would say they mostly would identify with the baptist denomination. I dress modestly but not really the way described I mean i only wear shirts that are high so no skin shows past my collarbone, but I don't wear jumpers... I do wear skirts a lot of the time and i have always gotten skirts that are longer to cover up your knees, But I do have a few pants I wear sometimes, and I don't think I would stand out in a crowd based on my clothes. I was homeschooled for some grades and not for others, I can go more into detail on that if you want, but I did go to college so I have that :) my parents said they didn't care what degree i chose and they didn't care whether I actually used it or not, but that I had to get a four year degree because that would give me opportunity if I needed or wanted it and it was for safety for my future and my parents think going to college is something you should provide for your children. So in that way we don't sound "fundy" right? I do live at home with my parents though.. I have been thinking I would really enjoy having a small apartment all of my own but that's a big step so im not sure when I would actually do it.

Edited because it helps when you spell things correctly LOL

[Vex]

Most fundies that we discuss here are baptists.

I have to admit I'm not really sure why you accept some things without question, because it sounds like although you have a fairly religious background your parents encouraged you to learn and go into the world, which are the two things most fundie families won't allow because they're afraid their children will begin to question everything. Your parents really don't seem to want you to blindly accept things. I'm not a psychologist by any means, so I could be totally wrong when I assumed something made you adopt that attitude.

Out of curiosity, were your parents the ones who encouraged you to dress modestly? If so, did you decide for yourself what was or wasn't appropriate, or did they decide for you?

Also, I was wondering if the reason you struggled with science was because your homeschooling curriculum was religious (by that, I mean were the texts used from the religious homeschool publishers rather than the mainstream ones), or if it just wasn't your subject? Finally, out of pure curiosity, what did you major and minor in?

Sorry for all the questions, I know I'm asking a lot of them.

[heart4home]

I was in education and I did not have a minor. Math and science were hard for me anyway but I went to college and realized I did not have the right background in many subjects, I had to take several developmental courses before starting real courses. Yes when we homeschooled we used some stuff from A Beka and some stuff from various other places my mom wanted to use. I did go to the local high school for math one year but there was a lot of drugs in the school and witchcraft so I couldn't stay, and my teenae years were hard because I didn't get along very well with my sisters but couldn't really have many outside friends, I mostly had only penpals that my mom found through a homeschooling newsletter for Christians. I loved college mostly because i could live in a dorm and it was fun to make all those friends and live with them and that was a great experience, many were not Christian but that just didnt seem to matter to me, I learned your friends don't all have to be Christians and I had so much fun in the dorms, I just loved it. My parents prayed for me a lot in the dorms but they said they knew they didnt have to worry about me because of my sweet spirit. To be honest my sisters are different than me (headstrong, independent, etc)and i was seen as "the sweet one", so I could do more things without being worried about too much, because my parents said I was strong in Christ so they could let me do more because they knew I would not make bad choices. They talk about me having a repentant heart and stuff, which I don't know about that but they have always let me do more, could be because I was the baby, ya know. I don't know. Anyway As for clothes I don't dress as modestly now as I did as a child, my mom had us in skirts but if it was cold we wore leggings or pants underneath skirts, as a child I loved dresses so it wasn't a big deal to me, though if I'd hated dresses I don't know what would it have been like.

[Vex]

It seems like you do come from a fundie-lite background. If your mum was the one who dictated what you wore, what you learned, what religious dogma to follow etc. then I can totally understand why you're at a point where you're now having to soul search. I'm the same age as you, and I went through a similar period when I wanted to believe in something but I wasn't sure what.

Do you want to use your degree to teach? Did you choose what to study yourself, or did your mum contribute in some way? The reason I ask is that when fundie families do allow their daughters to attend college they often do a degree in education because they figure it will be relevant if they get married, because it will help them homeschool any children.

I apologise if my questions are too personal.

[Witsec7]

I have a real interest in the amount of control your parents had over you. You state that they permitted you to go off to uni and obtain a degree but on another thread you mention that your father frequently marked out words on reading material as a means of censorship. That really doesn't sound fundy lite to me. Can we explore what types of reading materials were impacted by your father's censorship and how you felt about it?

FWIW my goddless heathen DD is your age, and although she didn't move out on her own until 21, she had a career and saved to buy a house during that time. As a parent I cannot imagine the effort it took for your folks to exert such control over a a life. Did your parents grow up fundy?

[formergothardite]

I can kind of understand where heart4home is coming from. Having had sickness/bad stuff=obvious sin/hidden sins beat into my head, I still struggle sometimes wondering if the bad things that happen are because God is punishing me. I KNOW that this isn't true, I know it doesn't make any sense, but there is still that nagging doubt that I can't ever get rid of that will pop up from time to time. When it happens I just have to remind myself that it is nothing more than harmful crap created by evil men to control people. People like Gothard and many Baptists, especially IFB, don't want members to start looking outside of the religious box, so they make up 'biblical truths" to scare them into never leaving.

[emmiedahl]

A creation based curriculum is not science-based. You cannot understand biology without a firm grounding in evolution. So it does not surprise me that someone would be weak in science knowledge if educated at a Christian school.

[heart4home]

The stuff my dad marked out of books was not so much when I was older- it was mostly when I was a young teen and under- when I was an older teen and up it didn't happen anymore, although I was told certain books and authors not to read.

I didn't study evolution until college.

But in college I don't feel I truly learned a lot because I had to obtain so much info all at once at that point that I don't feel I was truly learning, but instead was just doing the whole "memorize it enough to get through the test, then forget it and focus on the next material". I didn't want it to be that way, I wanted to really study and truly learn, but I was new at all this and drowning in homework, exams etc and just needed to use my memorization skills to memorize lots of info for the tests so I could pass and move on. But there was a problem with that- when it comes to literature and history, memorization works fine most of the time. But when it comes to math and science, I needed to really understand what I was learning, memorization alone wouldn't work as well, and I didn't understand.

Early Childhood Education is the major I went into because my parents said I was great with children and I was creative, and, the idea was that if I learned to be a teacher it would be beneficial with teaching my own children someday.

But I struggled in college and never passed the praxis, so rather than a teaching license I ended up with educational leadership. Different from education itself but it would take all my credits. It wasn't what I planned on but I graduated.

My parents are not supportive of getting a Masters degree but even if they were I really don't want to go back to school. I felt great that I got through college but it was the hardest thing I have ever done and I was glad when it was over. I love to learn and I love ideas, but the whole concept of "school" was just so foreign and exhausting to me. I was tested in college and given special accommodations for learning disabilities. I just think I am done with school. But I am not done learning.

[Minerva]

The stuff my dad marked out of books was not so much when I was older- it was mostly when I was a young teen and under- when I was an older teen and up it didn't happen anymore, although I was told certain books and authors not to read.

I didn't study evolution until college.

But in college I don't feel I truly learned a lot because I had to obtain so much info all at once at that point that I don't feel I was truly learning, but instead was just doing the whole "memorize it enough to get through the test, then forget it and focus on the next material". I didn't want it to be that way, I wanted to really study and truly learn, but I was new at all this and drowning in homework, exams etc and just needed to use my memorization skills to memorize lots of info for the tests so I could pass and move on. But there was a problem with that- when it comes to literature and history, memorization works fine most of the time. But when it comes to math and science, I needed to really understand what I was learning, memorization alone wouldn't work as well, and I didn't understand.

Early Childhood Education is the major I went into because my parents said I was great with children and I was creative, and, the idea was that if I learned to be a teacher it would be beneficial with teaching my own children someday.

But I struggled in college and never passed the praxis, so rather than a teaching license I ended up with educational leadership. Different from education itself but it would take all my credits. It wasn't what I planned on but I graduated.

My parents are not supportive of getting a Masters degree but even if they were I really don't want to go back to school. I felt great that I got through college but it was the hardest thing I have ever done and I was glad when it was over. I love to learn and I love ideas, but the whole concept of "school" was just so foreign and exhausting to me. I was tested in college and given special accommodations for learning disabilities. I just think I am done with school. But I am not done learning.

May I ask which books and authors these were?

[Austin]

I can kind of understand where heart4home is coming from. Having had sickness/bad stuff=obvious sin/hidden sins beat into my head, I still struggle sometimes wondering if the bad things that happen are because God is punishing me. I KNOW that this isn't true, I know it doesn't make any sense, but there is still that nagging doubt that I can't ever get rid of that will pop up from time to time. When it happens I just have to remind myself that it is nothing more than harmful crap created by evil men to control people. People like Gothard and many Baptists, especially IFB, don't want members to start looking outside of the religious box, so they make up 'biblical truths" to scare them into never leaving.

I agree with FG, and can relate, too. The depth of my involvement in fundie-ism was never that great, but even a garden-variety evangelical, Baptist or otherwise, is exposed to all sorts of different ways that God is supposedly "doing His work" in people. I was an evangelical for 35-plus years, and even though I am not even a believer any longer, the limbic part of my brain still struggles with the fear associated with these ideas. Those neural pathways were created, and thus, the damage was done. Logic wins in the end, but I wouldn't pretend that I don't have a chill go up my spine now and again because I am reminded of these things.

[QAF_Rocks]

I actually like the fashion stuff on this blog, but the theology drives me crazy. Here's today's example:

Why would anyone teach kids that God thinks they're ugly and repulsive??

Gotta make sure the kids believe they're sick; otherwise they won't accept Jesus as the cure. :roll:

I think this is one of the worst aspects of Christianity. People are told that they're inherently bad and deserve to be tortured for all eternity because of it. There's no self-esteem. It's all about how lowly and worthless everyone is without Jesus.

[heart4home]

Happy independence Day :)

Minerva, I hope you don't mind if I post just a few ..I can always edit back in to finish the list later..but there were just so many. Just some books and authors off the top of my head..

-Roald Dahl, he had a book called the witches and some other books had magic in them

-where the wild things are, not sure why, maybe monsters?

-anything by Judy Blume was a no, she was considered a feminist and even most of her childrens books were considered too sexual, except the fudge series was ok, and also the one in the middle is a green kangaroo was ok

-Harry potter, but my aunt lent me her whole series when i was a teenager, haha, so I read them all because of her, loved them

-stephen king, obvious reasons (this one was when I was teen/young adult)

-any other murder mystery type thing that would have been graphic

-a novelization of fern gully (putting too much emphasis on nature)

-a novilization of the lion king (circle of life was the issue)

-the power of the rellard

-count Dracula me and Norma d.

-those teen mysteries by RL Stine, I'm not talking about goosebumps but the other ones

-Annie on my mind or any other gay teen fiction

-girl hearts , that's a teen book

-dicey series

-redwall series

-the once and future king, Arthurian legend

-the strange case of dr Jekyll and mr Hyde

-journey to the center of the earth

-the Arabian nights

-a doll's house (a play) because she left her children

-their eyes were watching god, woman was with different men

-like water for chocolate, because of imaginative themes??

-things fall apart, because missionaries are viewed negatively

I can't think of any more just off the top of my head. Sorry it's sort of a mix of adult, teen, and kid books, but like I said I was just posting whatever came to my mind that I remembered being told was bad to read.

[Minerva]

Happy independence Day :)

Minerva, I hope you don't mind if I post just a few ..I can always edit back in to finish the list later..but there were just so many. Just some books and authors off the top of my head..

-Roald Dahl, he had a book called the witches and some other books had magic in them

-where the wild things are, not sure why, maybe monsters?

-anything by Judy Blume was a no, she was considered a feminist and even most of her childrens books were considered too sexual, except the fudge series was ok, and also the one in the middle is a green kangaroo was ok

-Harry potter, but my aunt lent me her whole series when i was a teenager, haha, so I read them all because of her, loved them

-stephen king, obvious reasons (this one was when I was teen/young adult)

-any other murder mystery type thing that would have been graphic

-a novelization of fern gully (putting too much emphasis on nature)

-a novilization of the lion king (circle of life was the issue)

-the power of the rellard

-count Dracula me and Norma d.

-those teen mysteries by RL Stine, I'm not talking about goosebumps but the other ones

-Annie on my mind or any other gay teen fiction

-girl hearts , that's a teen book

-dicey series

-redwall series

-the once and future king, Arthurian legend

-the strange case of dr Jekyll and mr Hyde

-journey to the center of the earth

-the Arabian nights

-a doll's house (a play) because she left her children

-their eyes were watching god, woman was with different men

-like water for chocolate, because of imaginative themes??

-things fall apart, because missionaries are viewed negatively

I can't think of any more just off the top of my head. Sorry it's sort of a mix of adult, teen, and kid books, but like I said I was just posting whatever came to my mind that I remembered being told was bad to read.

Oh wow, so they were fairly extreme in that area. Did they tell you the reasons things were banned, or did you only find out later? Why didn't they want you reading Redwall?

[Witsec7]

Oh wow, so they were fairly extreme in that area. Did they tell you the reasons things were banned, or did you only find out later? Why didn't they want you reading Redwall?

That is just so sad, my DD was 12 when I gave her a copy of Girl Goddess #9, yikes, it had transvestite parents raising kids!