Sexism and culture

[Three and Done]

I have been considering this issue all morning, since Fiance made some remarks that literally left me speechless (and THAT is quite difficult to do!).

Quick background - He's Puerto Rican, born and raised on the island, and moved to the mainland when he was 18. He's was raised in a traditional two parent, observant Catholic family. (Catholicism is very strong in Puerto Rico.) He's now 51.

On to this morning... I mentioned that I wasn't sure what I was making for dinner tonight, and he made some comments, including he was "feeling weak last night". I asked him to elaborate, and he stated that he was feeling that way due to fact that he hadn't eaten.

Now, I wasn't feeling well all day yesterday, and didn't eat much myself, or have energy to make anything. My daughters and future stepdaughter were all quite happy to make their own dinners (they're 11,12, and 16) - the younger two even collaborated on chicken rice with fresh veggies.

I then asked him "So, you didn't eat because no one MADE you something?" (which was indeed the case).

There is plenty of food in this house, the children managed just fine, yet a 51 year old engineer cannot feed himself? Are you kidding me? :o

His attitude is that it's somehow my responsibility to make sure he eats. I find it ridiculous, yet I do wonder how much of it was "trained" into him growing up in Puerto Rico. It's clear that he tends to categorize certain tasks into "men's" or "women's" work, and from past conversations with him and other Puerto Rican people, and my own research, that seems to be a common theme in their culture.

He and I have discussed this in the past, and he truly believes that he isn't a "typical Puerto Rican" male, yet the evidence proves otherwise - he just doesn't see it. I will continue to call him out on it, but I'm not sure how much headway I'm going to make as the attitudes seem so ingrained.

Thoughts?

[Guest Anonymous]

:shock:

He'd rather go to bed hungry than make himself a damn sandwich? Has he never lived by himself at all? Or with roommates? I'm having a really difficult time buying that the man has never fed himself in fifty years.

[Three and Done]

:shock:

He'd rather go to bed hungry than make himself a damn sandwich? Has he never lived by himself at all? Or with roommates? I'm having a really difficult time buying that the man has never fed himself in fifty years.

Oh, he certainly HAS. In fact, until my daughters and I moved in here in April, he often had to feed himself AND his daughter (who he has custody of). Now that we are here, it's MY JOB, dontcha know!

And it does seem that he would rather not eat, or just eat a plate of cheese and crackers (whilst shooting me a resentful look now and then) than to MAKE something.

Sandwiches are "not dinner!" btw :roll: /end sarcasm

[ceg045]

I see you being able to go one of two routes with this:

The "tough love" version: I don't think he's so clueless that he can't throw some peanut butter or lunchmeat on two slices of bread, or toss a frozen dinner in the oven/microwave. You sit down and tell him that he, and only he, is responsible for what does or doesn't eat. Then hold to it. He's not going to starve.

The "not so tough love" version: Could you guys take a cooking class together at a local store or community college, perhaps one taught by a man? One that will introduce him to some simple, relatively easy recipes that he can prepare on his own while simultaneously showing him you are not (and will not be) responsible for ensuring that he eats at the appointed times.

Anyway, that's all I got. Good luck!

[Guest Anonymous]

I would have a huge problem with that. My partner doesn't cook, but if I'm sick or busy or not in the mood to cook he will go microwave something. That's common courtesy and basic adult behavior in my opinion. If your fiance has prepared meals before he can do it now without acting like a jerk over it. Every relationship has its pitfalls and pet peeves, I guess you have to decide if this is something that has the potential to be changed, and if not, if you can live with it. The kids in the house will pick up on this stuff, so that's another aspect that you've probably considered.

[tropaka]

well, my 51 year old UkrainianCanadian engineer gets peeved if there isn't dinner to his liking as well, although he is quite capable of feeding himself and will do so grudgingly. He grew up in a household where his mother and sisters entirely looked after the food while he looked after the lawn and garbage etc. You said your fiance has a daughter - if he was married before, did his wife look after the food prep etc? He may be putting whatever the division of labour was in that relationship onto you.

Or he's being a lazy jerk about it, which is how I approach it when my hubby makes a face when he might have to live with something microwavable for dinner.

[clibbyjo]

Mine can go to bed hungry before I would be dealing with that. :)

I almost always make dinner. I make what I feel like making and you eat that or make something yourself( 13 year old girl decided she is a vegetarian now,so she makes her own dinner). I usually make enough for lunch leftovers the next day. Leftovers can be an extra dinner if you don't feel like cooking.

I do ask my husband makes at LEAST one dinner on the weekend to give me a break.(and I always request an elaborate meal or something grilled which I don't cook). Maybe you can get your DH to make 1 dinner a week?(talk it up like its a huge deal, this is how it gets done.)

I also make my kids take turns cooking dinner every other week or so. All of them can cook basic dinners and they do.

[Three and Done]

You said your fiance has a daughter - if he was married before, did his wife look after the food prep etc? He may be putting whatever the division of labour was in that relationship onto you.

He actually has two daughters - his oldest (who's 25) lives in Puerto Rico with her mother. From what he has told me, it was a very traditional relationship. That marriage only lasted a short time, and he has said that type of marriage is NBOT what he is looking for. (Although I'm not sure that's completely true.) His younger daughter is the one that lives with us, and he was never married to her mother. Their relationship was extremely volatile due to the fact that the woman is a nut. I have heard she cooks very little and is a slovenly housekeeper.

I see you being able to go one of two routes with this:

The "tough love" version: I don't think he's so clueless that he can't throw some peanut butter or lunchmeat on two slices of bread, or toss a frozen dinner in the oven/microwave. You sit down and tell him that he, and only he, is responsible for what does or doesn't eat. Then hold to it. He's not going to starve.

The "not so tough love" version: Could you guys take a cooking class together at a local store or community college, perhaps one taught by a man? One that will introduce him to some simple, relatively easy recipes that he can prepare on his own while simultaneously showing him you are not (and will not be) responsible for ensuring that he eats at the appointed times.

He CHOOSES not to eat (which is the irritating part) - he can actually cook quite well, and has even taught ME how to make a favorite dish we all love.

A few things I should probably mention, in the interest of fairness: for the summer I am a SAHM I go back to school in August). He does take care of the cars, the yard, the garbage, pays the mortgage, utility bill, etc. I pay for most of the food and household stuff, my car insurance and gas, and my cell phone bill.

[Three and Done]

Is it possible to override Fiance's "programming" at this stage of the game? He grew up in a culture that is traditionally sexist and male dominated, reinforced by the Catholic Church.

[Guest Anonymous]

Is it possible to override Fiance's "programming" at this stage of the game? He grew up in a culture that is traditionally sexist and male dominated, reinforced by the Catholic Church.

It's possible for him to do it, if he wants to. I'm a cynic, but I have my doubts as to whether or not someone in that position wants to change. It's easier and more pleasant for him if he doesn't.

[Three and Done]

It's possible for him to do it, if he wants to. I'm a cynic, but I have my doubts as to whether or not someone in that position wants to change. It's easier and more pleasant for him if he doesn't.

It is easier to let someone else do the work, but I can't imagine it's pleasant (or enjoyable) to CHOOSE to go to bed hungry rather than grab something. There are even frozen homemade meals in the freezer.

It does not make sense to me - he seems to think it's "punishing" me when he chooses not to eat... why the hell should I care? He's an adult.

[Conuly]

It is easier to let someone else do the work, but I can't imagine it's pleasant (or enjoyable) to CHOOSE to go to bed hungry rather than grab something. There are even frozen homemade meals in the freezer.

It may not be physically pleasant, but if it allows him to act like the martyr and gain, in his mind, the moral high ground then it might be worth it. And if this eventually got you to change your behavior and make a fresh dinner nightly, no matter what, then it WOULD be pleasant in the long run.

[Sumeri]

I deal with this kind of nonsense in my house, because my husband grew up in a traditional farming family (mom "didn't work" -- which means she actually worked harder than any of the men between raising the kids, helping on the farm, cooking for hired men, etc. while they drove back and forth in air conditioned tractors listening to the radio). Bonus... she spent her whole life telling him that he should expect the women in his life to handle these tasks - I once had a fight with her when she told me that I shouldn't tell "her grandsons" to do the dishes :roll: . Like the OP, it's not that he can't do these things, he's actually a very good cook and last I checked the ability to do laundry and dishes and bed making don't follow traditional gender roles - but frankly? He's lazy and can't be arsed because he knows if he faffs around long enough I'll do it simply because I'm tired of looking at the mess he creates.

So I'm no help. I put my stock in the future generation and make my sons do the same housework as my daughter and let them tell their father he's being ridiculous.

[BlueChair]

Is it possible to override Fiance's "programming" at this stage of the game? He grew up in a culture that is traditionally sexist and male dominated, reinforced by the Catholic Church.

My boyfriend is Muslim (it has cultural and identity importance to him although he's not particularly religious) and also comes from a country and culture where very traditional gender roles are adhered to. I was clear from the get go that if he wants to be with me, he will be a 100% participant in caring for the home, cooking, child care, etc. He will not tell me what to do (beyond the normal bounds of what people expect of each other within a relationship), expect me to be his chef or maid, or ever hit me, as those are all things that are completely normal in his home country and culture.

Now, I know he would never, ever hit me in a million years, and he jumps up and heads to the kitchen the moment I mention I'm hungry, so these are not things I ever really needed to worry about. But due to the two of us coming from vastly different cultures, I put it all out there on the table from day one. He knows what I will and won't put up with, and he's done the same for me with his expectations. I find that you have to be really clear, open, and direct about these things in cross-cultural relationships. It's dangerous to assume that just because you get along well and have a connection with another person, everything else will just fall into place. Cross-cultural relationships are a lot of work!

[Guest Anonymous]

It does not make sense to me - he seems to think it's "punishing" me when he chooses not to eat... why the hell should I care? He's an adult.

Hey, like I said. No relationship is perfect, you have to do a cost/benefit analysis. But obviously you do care, which is why you started the topic. I don't blame you, I would care. All I'm saying is that I don't think you can override his programming. He's an adult who is making his own decisions. He can choose to change or not.

[Maude]

It does not make sense to me - he seems to think it's "punishing" me when he chooses not to eat... why the hell should I care? He's an adult.

You're right, he's an adult. So don't care. He's appealing to your love for him by choosing not to eat and then making a stink about it. The only way to deal with that kind of emotional manipulation is to ignore it, in my opinion. If he gets hungry enough, he'll eventually eat.

[nolongerIFBx]

I then asked him "So, you didn't eat because no one MADE you something?" (which was indeed the case).

There is plenty of food in this house, the children managed just fine, yet a 51 year old engineer cannot feed himself? Are you kidding me? :o ?

My dad is very white and has a masters degree. He has also gone hungry rather than fix something for himself. But since our small town has now gotten a McDonalds, he has learned to drive himself there when he is hungry.

[Wolfie]

Is it possible to override Fiance's "programming" at this stage of the game? He grew up in a culture that is traditionally sexist and male dominated, reinforced by the Catholic Church.

I wouldn't say "Catholic Church" in general, but maybe in Puerto Rico. My father grew up in the Catholic Church and he loves to cook and is a good cook. Both his father and maternal grandfather were the same way. All Catholic too.

[browngrl]

My husband knows better now but when we first got married this happened: We both walked in the door at the same time, after a long day at work. As I was hanging up my coat my husband flopped on the sofa, kicked off his shoes and said something to this effect "I'm tired and I'm hungry - when will you have dinner ready". I walked over to him and slammed a bowl/box of cereal/spoon and milk on the coffee table and then stood there with hands on hips and with daggers shooting out of my eyes. "There's your dinner" I said. This was followed by a long tirade full of smoke and fury and expletives. He hasn't done this stupid thing again.

[Anise]

I think a lot of it depends on family culture. My dad is Swiss, but he grew up in a very traditional family, so he does not do any daily housework or yardwork. The one time my mother left on a trip, I, at 11, was in charge of the kitchen, even both my dad and an older brother were at home.

On the other hand, my fiance is Chinese and grew up in a more relaxed family. His father would cook from time to time, and he himself learned to cook from a young age. He cooks a lot for himself, and has lately not been letting me wash his dishes when we cook at his place.

[Three and Done]

It may not be physically pleasant, but if it allows him to act like the martyr and gain, in his mind, the moral high ground then it might be worth it. And if this eventually got you to change your behavior and make a fresh dinner nightly, no matter what, then it WOULD be pleasant in the long run.

Very good point, Conuly. It contains shades of operant conditioning that make me rather uncomfortable.

BlueChair - It wasn't until we moved in that this particular issues seemed to come up more and more often. I suppose in his mind me living here = me (or the girls) doing all of the housework and cooking.

Hey, like I said. No relationship is perfect, you have to do a cost/benefit analysis. But obviously you do care, which is why you started the topic. I don't blame you, I would care. All I'm saying is that I don't think you can override his programming. He's an adult who is making his own decisions. He can choose to change or not.

It's not really that I care if he chooses to be pigheaded, it's more that I care about cultural differences that are becoming obvious. If he doesn't eat... well, that's his problem. If the tip of the iceberg is beginning to show, that IS my problem.

I wouldn't say "Catholic Church" in general, but maybe in Puerto Rico. My father grew up in the Catholic Church and he loves to cook and is a good cook. Both his father and maternal grandfather were the same way. All Catholic too.

I apologize, Wolfie. I certainly didn't intend to paint all Catholic men sexists ;) It does seem to be an entrenched attitude amongst the Catholic Puerto Ricans.

I hope it isn't offensive to ask if your family is Italian? I have known a large number of Italian families, and not only do the men often love to cook, they're wonderful at it! I do think that is a cultural issue too, though; in the Italian culture it is accepted and encouraged when men cook, in the Puerto Rican culture, it's seen as women's work.

[YPestis]

Food is an integral part of our household and my parents used to fight over cooking until they decided to allow only one person in the kitchen at a time. Unfortunately, I never learned to cook very well since my parents were avid cooks. My SO likes to cook and is good at it, so he will attempt to cook unless he is very tired. I can't imagine living with anyone who requires me to feed him, although I respect and understand the importance of the family meal (which feels as important to me as showering or brushing my teeth). If hubby is so inept that he cannot feed himself without a woman to serve him then wife should sit down with him and have a serious discussion regarding household expectations. It could be he simplely puts importance on family dinners together, in which case one should suggest that the entire family should take turns contribute since it is a daily activity and rather time consuming. Cooking, unlike yard work is a daily chore for most people. It's also time sensitive and cannot be pushed to another day. Therefore I think it's important to make sure others are pitching in appropriately (such as clean up afterwards or taking turns doing it).

[TinyDancer87]

GIRRRRLLLL, I totally feel your pain. My husband is from Mexico, and while he is a very respectful man, treats me very well, never has a temper, we still struggle with traditional gender roles. Up until the day we got married, his mom cooked EVERYTHING, cleaned EVERYTHING, did EVERYTHING. I don't know why moms hinder their sons in this way, because now she has a completely adult man who doesn't know how to cook, clean, or even wash his own clothes. I shouldn't have had to teach him basic life skills, but I realize that this is more of a cultural issue that I'm dealing with, and not a lazy husband.

If I ask my husband for help, he's usually good about following through. Most women don't have to remind their husbands to eat breakfast, or help out with chores, but my man wasn't raised this way. Talk to your fiance about this, that you realize that you come from two different places and you respect that, but you won't wait on him hand and foot (especially if you're not feeling well!) and that he needs to step up occasionally and take care of you and your family. If you ask him for favors, and he doesn't follow through, THEN you have a problem.

[Guest Anonymous]

Just because it's "cultural" it doesn't mean that you have to put up with that shit. My mother went through exactly this with her husband. At first she thought this was an interesting cultural quirk, but after marriage she went from being this crazy jet-setting, intelligent, outgoing woman with a promising career to being a housewife whose sole point of pride was that she got to pick out the decor for the kitchen (i.e. "her room").

[deelaem]

I have been considering this issue all morning, since Fiance made some remarks that literally left me speechless (and THAT is quite difficult to do!).

Quick background - He's Puerto Rican, born and raised on the island, and moved to the mainland when he was 18. He's was raised in a traditional two parent, observant Catholic family. (Catholicism is very strong in Puerto Rico.) He's now 51.

On to this morning... I mentioned that I wasn't sure what I was making for dinner tonight, and he made some comments, including he was "feeling weak last night". I asked him to elaborate, and he stated that he was feeling that way due to fact that he hadn't eaten.

Now, I wasn't feeling well all day yesterday, and didn't eat much myself, or have energy to make anything. My daughters and future stepdaughter were all quite happy to make their own dinners (they're 11,12, and 16) - the younger two even collaborated on chicken rice with fresh veggies.

I then asked him "So, you didn't eat because no one MADE you something?" (which was indeed the case).

There is plenty of food in this house, the children managed just fine, yet a 51 year old engineer cannot feed himself? Are you kidding me? :o

His attitude is that it's somehow my responsibility to make sure he eats. I find it ridiculous, yet I do wonder how much of it was "trained" into him growing up in Puerto Rico. It's clear that he tends to categorize certain tasks into "men's" or "women's" work, and from past conversations with him and other Puerto Rican people, and my own research, that seems to be a common theme in their culture.

He and I have discussed this in the past, and he truly believes that he isn't a "typical Puerto Rican" male, yet the evidence proves otherwise - he just doesn't see it. I will continue to call him out on it, but I'm not sure how much headway I'm going to make as the attitudes seem so ingrained.

Thoughts?

My thought is that you're engaged to my ex-husband! If so, run for your life! :angry-screaming: