Raised Quiverfull: Homeschooling

[susurrus]

I don't think it's the be all and end all to learn algebra when you're 9. If you want to learn if you can at any age, can't you? Does learning stop when you get to 18?

If you want to speak French, learn how to paint, play the violin and tap dance, but didn't learn when you were a child, is that inexcusable too? What makes algebra sooooo important? I'm 32 and to my knowledge, have never suffered because I don't know "basic concepts".

Actually, I went to school until I was 11. Algebra wasn't part of the curriculum until college.

Learning doesn't stop when you're 18, but it may not be as easy as when you were younger. As a child, your brain is a fertile ground to lay down new information and let it flourish. It has an incredible ability to form new (neural) connections and thus, an incredible ability to absorb new information and new concepts. As you get older, this ability to form new connections is decreased and the existing connections are strengthened. Basically, if you don't use it, you lose it. This is why it's important to at least have the oppportunity to learn these things whilst you are young and able to do so with more ease. Furthermore, for those not in the Quiverfull lifestyle, life as a child isn't hampered by things like paying for the mortgage/worrying about your next meal etc. These external factors also affect your ability to firstly find the time to learn, and secondly, to learn without distractions.

I'm not by any means saying that adults can't learn algebra or how to play the violin. I'm just saying that for those who have been homeschooled like the OP, they have been robbed of an opportunity and now have to start trying to catch up to their peers. In terms of how algebra is or isn't important - it's a part of many college courses. Why needlessly close doors for your child? Even if it wasn't part of many college courses, learning algebra isn't just all about the x's and y's. It's about manipulating abstract concepts and critically thinking to find your solution.

PS: I do realise that Emmiedahl has talked about childhood as a perfect time to learn, but I thought it needed repetition. Hope you don't mind, Emmiedahl.

[Feberin]

I think any type of schooling can fail a student but there are more people looking out for kids falling through the cracks in public school than in a homeschool enviorment where there is possibly only one person overseeing a child's entire education.

Right now I'm really struggling with my decision not to send my son to preschool in the fall. Preschools are so expensive around me and most of the two year old programs are more daycare than preschool but because of this I'm feeling an enormous amount of stress to make sure that his education/social development aren't being neglected. While at the same time I want learning to be fun for him and not to involve flash cards. I am disgusted how a parent can care so little about an older child's education when I spend hours a week looking up ideas to do with my two-year-old. If you want to educate your child at home it needs to be a priority and you need to put in an effort.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

The problem is that if you fall too far behind, sometimes you lose out on opportunities to catch up.

It's one thing when you're still somehow IN the school system (and so you can go take remedial classes - and yes, absolutely people need to start learning at their actual level when they do it) but if you're out of school, working full time at a job, raising a passel of kids, it's harder to find the time. Sometimes there aren't classes available anymore. All your peers will have moved on. Etc.

Plus as others have said, some things really are easier to learn when you're young - and at the very least, you have time to do all the repetitive drills required because society expects kids to be learning as their full time jobs.

Of course learning doesn't stop at 18. I tutor adults in language myself, and teaching them how to teach themselves is the main thing I do. But it's a lot harder for people to find time to do the necessary drills in between a full time job, caring for kids, and all the rest of it. I hated doing drills in school with all the rest of them but looking back now I'm happy that I did it because they are the foundation for higher level, more interesting stuff.

I very much agree that kids learn by osmosis if things are interesting, but to a point. At some point in most disciplines there comes a time when you need to do some boring repetitive work. It's like sports - you have to practice skills if you want to be fluent enough to apply them to interesting problems, just as you have to practice skills to the point that they're second nature before you can think strategy in a game or tournament.

In my experience, the people who fell off the wagon, that's where they fell off. Everything is fine until late elementary school, and then without guidance (or some actual pressure to do work) they just... didn't, anymore. They thought they were doing work, but not to the level that you need to do to really progress. Because the stuff you're learning at that point isn't such "common sense" things anymore, it's stuff that isn't intuitive until you force yourself through a bunch of things, and just do it. Loads of things that lead to great insight and quite fun learning and all that are just plain painful in the beginning.

[ladidah]

QFT.

I was homeschooled. My parents would have been horrified at the idea of any child hitting junior high without a pretty thorough grasp of exponents.

[Islandmom]

Okay, staying mostly out of the homeschooling argument. I homeschool my daughter for academic reasons.... and I defintly believe homeschoolers fall in 2 camps. To really homeschool well takes a lot of time and dedication. It is a full time job. I spend hours every week preparing and then hours and hours more teaching. I also know that when DD is above my level on subjects I need to seek out other avenues such as duel enrollment in highschool or college level courses, online classes through the EPGY program offered by Stanford University, etc. These don't come cheep time wise or money wise, but I want my daughter to have every opportunity to choose what ever path she wants in life.

As for the life the poster writes about on quiverfull homeschooling....all I can say is WOW. I feel so horribly sad for her. She missed out on so much. An education, time with her parents, a childhood, and the opportunity to be fully prepared for whatever paath she wanted to take in life. It makes my heart hurt.

[snarkbillie]

I know enough maths to survive and thrive in my current life. I hope my children will be as happy and as intelligent as I am.

I agree that there are times books are needed, and if that's the case, I'll get books and learn along side my kids. I'm looking forward to it, infact! There are also tutors and other people in our hs group that are more equipped to teach maths than I am. I can share what I know with their kids, and visa versa.

"infact" isn't a word.. also, I think you mean "vice versa" it's Latin.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I'll reiterate too that I think homeschooling CAN be a great thing, but the problem is that in some cases (including this QF-raised girl on the blog) it really isn't. But far too many of the homeschooling resources are self-selected and so don't point out these dangers.

To do it right, parents need to be involved, and the kid needs to have time to spend on his or her OWN LEARNING. And sometimes parents have to push their kids and make them do things they don't see any need for, but that the parents know they will appreciate later. Kids don't always have the maturity to KNOW what will benefit them or not. Even "unschoolers," despite the name, the people doing that right are VERY involved. But others sometimes see that and think, oh, well, I just have to send my kid to the library and she'll come out a genius. Alas...

[breadprincess]

Right now I'm really struggling with my decision not to send my son to preschool in the fall. Preschools are so expensive around me and most of the two year old programs are more daycare than preschool but because of this I'm feeling an enormous amount of stress to make sure that his education/social development aren't being neglected. While at the same time I want learning to be fun for him and not to involve flash cards. I am disgusted how a parent can care so little about an older child's education when I spend hours a week looking up ideas to do with my two-year-old. If you want to educate your child at home it needs to be a priority and you need to put in an effort.

I'm a former preschool teacher and taught at a school that had specific, age-appropriate curriculum starting at one year old. I think it's fine to keep him at home, because structured learning can be hard for toddlers depending on their personalities and development. Usually in the two year old classroom we would work daily on fine motor skills (art projects, songs with hand motions, etc.), gross motor skills (games where the children were encouraged to hop, skip, follow the leader, walk in a straight line, etc.), language skills (songs, using objects to count, learning animal sounds, etc.) and sensory skills (playing in water, sand, various kinds of food, different textured fabrics/materials, etc.). These are all things that I think can easily be done at home, and almost all of my students attended preschool because their parents worked or went to school full time, not necessarily because they were there to learn or socialize. Ultimately it comes down to how your child learns best and finding a way to make learning enjoyable for them.

[terranova]

The bottom line for me is, while I'm totally aware there are things other people know and I don't, I'm quite happy giving up knowing these things in exchange for leaving a school system that was failing me academically, socially and emotionally. I can live without some knowledge of maths, but I strongly believe I wouldn't be the happy, well rounded person I am today had I stayed at school.

:)

[Elle]

Our society has taken steps to help children in abusive situations but I don't think it considers this type of 'schooling' to be a kind of abuse. I think it's educational abuse that's allowed to go on partly because of freedom of religious and partly because of some people's aversion to government intervention in their lives. This is an area where the government, social workers etc. need to intervene to ensure children are being properly educated.

Unschooling is increasing in popularity. Proponents say it's child-led learning, letting them learn what interests them, but opponents say it's lazy parents not wanting to do any work with their kids. Really, it's laziness. If kids aren't challenged and are allowed to study what they want, good luck finding one willing to do homework that's challenging.

Amish societies are set up so that someone who's finished formal education at 8th grade won't fail in their society, but fundies who are homeschooled and those who are unschooled have to exist in a society that expects at minimum a 10th grade education.

[emmiedahl]

The bottom line for me is, while I'm totally aware there are things other people know and I don't, I'm quite happy giving up knowing these things in exchange for leaving a school system that was failing me academically, socially and emotionally. I can live without some knowledge of maths, but I strongly believe I wouldn't be the happy, well rounded person I am today had I stayed at school.

:)

You really think people need to choose between a minimal level of skills and being happy, well-rounded people?

There were times at school when I was miserable. There are times when the school system failed me. I still graduated high school (hell, eighth grade probably) understanding exponents. And I am a very happy well-rounded person who would not be able to pursue my chosen career path if I had not been given that basic knowledge of algebra. When you fail to teach your children these things, you are slamming doors in their face. You are narrowing the fields they can go into and some of the now impossible careers are things they otherwise would have loved.

The best students in my university physics, chemistry and calculus classes were homeschooled teenagers who were 16 and kicking our asses. Why? Their parents were doctors and engineers who had spared nothing in their education. They had been given an amount of rigor that most public schools are lacking and were used to high standards. One of them told me that she loved how in college, a 98% was an A. When she was at home, her mother saw that 2% wrong as proof that more work needed to be done. :lol:

But I had a good friend in the same program who was homeschooled in a QF family. It took her three years of remedial work to get into the beginning pre-med classes. And then she hit a wall. She had done well in math, but when it was time to apply math to science she had no conceptual understanding. She was very intelligent but she could not make up for 12 years of education and learning in just a few years. And ultimately, she is not applying to medical schools with me right now and she never will. Her parents took that from her and still feel they did the right thing keeping her away from the evil schools. It is abuse.

[terranova]

You really think people need to choose between a minimal level of skills and being happy, well-rounded people?

I'd like to meet you one day and prove to you that not all homeschoolers have minimal level of skills. :)

[terranova]

Unschooling is increasing in popularity. Proponents say it's child-led learning, letting them learn what interests them, but opponents say it's lazy parents not wanting to do any work with their kids. Really, it's laziness. If kids aren't challenged and are allowed to study what they want, good luck finding one willing to do homework that's challenging.

Come visit and I'll introduce you to our group of unschoolers, it may change your attitude. Unschooling parents are not all lazy, that's a pretty ignorant judgement.

[emmiedahl]

I'd like to meet you one day and prove to you that not all homeschoolers have minimal level of skills. :)

You have already told us you don't know what is now considered 4th grade math and that you don't find this significant. That pretty much says it all.

[emmiedahl]

Come visit and I'll introduce you to our group of unschoolers, it may change your attitude. Unschooling parents are not all lazy, that's a pretty ignorant judgement.

An unschooling parent who thinks you can learn math by osmosis *is* being lazy. Not all of them are like that, certainly. I was leaning toward unschooling myself when I homeschooled, but we did teaching textbooks for higher math.

[terranova]

You have already told us you don't know what is now considered 4th grade math and that you don't find this significant. That pretty much says it all.

Ok, maybe I don't want to meet you after all.

I hope you don't know anyone who has a learning disability or was educated in a different country, it must be hell being your friend.

Do you think that all people who have gaps in their education are stupid and not worth knowing? Or do you have a special hatred for homeschoolers?

[terranova]

An unschooling parent who thinks you can learn math by osmosis *is* being lazy. Not all of them are like that, certainly. I was leaning toward unschooling myself when I homeschooled, but we did teaching textbooks for higher math.

Not lazy, we just have a different opinion on how to best raise our kids. I get that that is hard for you to understand, but it's the truth.

[emmiedahl]

Ok, maybe I don't want to meet you after all.

I hope you don't know anyone who has a learning disability or was educated in a different country, it must be hell being your friend.

Do you think that all people who have gaps in their education are stupid and not worth knowing? Or do you have a special hatred for homeschoolers?

You obviously have not been reading all these comments on this thread where I mention having been a homeschooler and also that some homeschooling children are pretty much brilliant. Not to mention that my fangirlship for clibbyjo, the unschooling goddess, is pretty well-known in these parts.

You said you, someone who is pleased with not having minimal skills, is fine with children not getting an adequate education. I was responding to that.

I don't think that someone knowing math is a measure of morality, but it is a measure of how they were taught *barring other difficulties of course*. So to say you received a great education that just happened to not cover elementary school math, that certainly will get a rise out of me. You did not get an adequate education, and it concerns me that you are teaching your own children given that education is clearly not that important to you.

Not lazy, we just have a different opinion on how to best raise our kids. I get that that is hard for you to understand, but it's the truth.

You cannot learn higher math by osmosis, that is not an opinion. It is a fact.

[terranova]

You obviously have not been reading all these comments on this thread where I mention having been a homeschooler and also that some homeschooling children are pretty much brilliant. Not to mention that my fangirlship for clibbyjo, the unschooling goddess, is pretty well-known in these parts.

You said you, someone who is pleased with not having minimal skills, is fine with children not getting an adequate education. I was responding to that.

I don't think that someone knowing math is a measure of morality, but it is a measure of how they were taught *barring other difficulties of course*. So to say you received a great education that just happened to not cover elementary school math, that certainly will get a rise out of me. You did not get an adequate education, and it concerns me that you are teaching your own children given that education is clearly not that important to you.

You cannot learn higher math by osmosis, that is not an opinion. It is a fact.

No, it's your opinion. As it is mine that I had a great education, 4 years of which were spent travelling the world. I hope one day someone will open your eyes to how awesome unschooling/homeschooling can be, because it really doesn't seem like you get it.

But anway, I'm off to take my kid to the library and then shopping. I'd better be careful she's 4 months old and can't count yet. Do you think I've ruined her for life? ;p

[bananacat]

The thing is, math isn't some obscure skill like learning karate. And if you think it's only about performing tricks with numbers, then you are woefully misguided. But math skills are a lot more important than you think. Math doesn't need numbers. The numbers only exist to help you visualize abstract concepts. Learning math improves your skill in abstract thought, which helps in many, many ways in your life. Sure, you can manage to get by without it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

I am not trying to shame you. If you don't know what an exponent is, then someone else has failed you. It doesn't mean you're stupid and you don't have to get defensive about it. But it is a skill that should have been taught to you and you don't have it.

[terranova]

The thing is, math isn't some obscure skill like learning karate. And if you think it's only about performing tricks with numbers, then you are woefully misguided. But math skills are a lot more important than you think. Math doesn't need numbers. The numbers only exist to help you visualize abstract concepts. Learning math improves your skill in abstract thought, which helps in many, many ways in your life. Sure, you can manage to get by without it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

I am not trying to shame you. If you don't know what an exponent is, then someone else has failed you. It doesn't mean you're stupid and you don't have to get defensive about it. But it is a skill that should have been taught to you and you don't have it.

I'm not shamed, although people seem to think I should be.

Anyway, there's not much point arguing or continuing this conversation. I've put my point across and so have other people, so I'm going out before I say something I'll regret!

[bananacat]

Nice flounce, but try to make sure your daughter learns what an exponent is before she graduates high school. Although, if you really think math is as obscure and specialized as karate, I don't have a lot of hope for her.

[Feberin]

I'm a former preschool teacher and taught at a school that had specific, age-appropriate curriculum starting at one year old. I think it's fine to keep him at home, because structured learning can be hard for toddlers depending on their personalities and development. Usually in the two year old classroom we would work daily on fine motor skills (art projects, songs with hand motions, etc.), gross motor skills (games where the children were encouraged to hop, skip, follow the leader, walk in a straight line, etc.), language skills (songs, using objects to count, learning animal sounds, etc.) and sensory skills (playing in water, sand, various kinds of food, different textured fabrics/materials, etc.). These are all things that I think can easily be done at home, and almost all of my students attended preschool because their parents worked or went to school full time, not necessarily because they were there to learn or socialize. Ultimately it comes down to how your child learns best and finding a way to make learning enjoyable for them.

Thanks! I know there is no reason I can't do everything with him at home and out a places like the library I even have a degree in early childhood education. But in my area most people send their kids to preschool starting at age two and I've been getting some comments regarding my choice not to send him.

[Maude]

Our society has taken steps to help children in abusive situations but I don't think it considers this type of 'schooling' to be a kind of abuse. I think it's educational abuse that's allowed to go on partly because of freedom of religious and partly because of some people's aversion to government intervention in their lives. This is an area where the government, social workers etc. need to intervene to ensure children are being properly educated.

I absolutely agree. I think this piece, and in fact, this thread, speaks to the need for homeschooling regulations across the board.

Terranova, if you happen to be reading this thread again, know I understand first-hand that some people aren't comfortable or can't function in a school environment for any number of reasons. That's not the issue. The issue is that instead of simply admitting to not being very good at math (which in and of itself is nothing new or terrible), you appear to be presenting your situation as something desirable, denying that your lack of skill is a hindrance, which becomes a serious issue when you're homeschooling your child yourself.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I have some serious issues with the tone and content of Libby Anne's blog, but I remember this post and loved seeing the different experiences and criticisms of homeschooling that came out in the contents.

This is what I thought was the most pertinent point:

We didn’t have much contact with other homeschoolers. We went to conventions where we met mostly other Christian homeschoolers, but never many who lived close enough to actually have vivid contact with them. Having friends wasn’t as important anyway, your siblings were supposed to be your best friends.

I think the types of activities that many homeschoolers, especially SOTDRT types, use for "socializing" their kids may provide them with the chance to interact with children of their own age, but do not give them enough unstructured time together to actually form meaningful friendships.