Raised Quiverfull: Homeschooling

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Unschooling is increasing in popularity. Proponents say it's child-led learning, letting them learn what interests them, but opponents say it's lazy parents not wanting to do any work with their kids. Really, it's laziness. If kids aren't challenged and are allowed to study what they want, good luck finding one willing to do homework that's challenging.

Amish societies are set up so that someone who's finished formal education at 8th grade won't fail in their society, but fundies who are homeschooled and those who are unschooled have to exist in a society that expects at minimum a 10th grade education.

I wish I could QFT these two posts many time over.

[emmiedahl]

Done right, unschooling is much more work for the mother and much more educational for the child. Letting your child make it to adulthood without having basic skills is not unschooling done right, though.

[Witsec7]

...

I think the types of activities that many homeschoolers, especially SOTDRT types, use for "socializing" their kids may provide them with the chance to interact with children of their own age, but do not give them enough unstructured time together to actually form meaningful friendships.

Without these associations how to these individuals learn to collaborate with diverse people once in the work place?

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Without these associations how to these individuals learn to collaborate with diverse people once in the work place?

They don't?

I've never met any home schoolers at the places I've worked, but the ones I met in late high school and college all, as a rule, had serious problems adjusting to the environment--they kept to themselves and even failed classes, for the silliest reasons, like they couldn't get their heads around the notion of work being due at a certain time.

Extrapolating from that, I really can't see these people adjusting to any kind of a career without serious difficulty.

[breadprincess]

Unschooling is increasing in popularity. Proponents say it's child-led learning, letting them learn what interests them, but opponents say it's lazy parents not wanting to do any work with their kids. Really, it's laziness. If kids aren't challenged and are allowed to study what they want, good luck finding one willing to do homework that's challenging.

I don't think all unschooling is laziness. One of my friends and her two sisters were/are unschooled for high school. They have educated parents who supervise them, make sure they're learning everything necessary for their grade level, and who integrate volunteer work into the curriculum. My friend is only 16 but she's well spoken and more knowledgeable than the average 10th/11th grader. Unschooling has allowed her to study more advanced subjects than most students who attend traditional school (she is very interested in sociology and social justice, for instance), and her sisters have "graduated" early (gotten their GEDs) and college is in their future. While I don't think this would work for every child or family, it has been a wonderful experience for my friend and her sisters.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

They don't?

I've never met any home schoolers at the places I've worked, but the ones I met in late high school and college all, as a rule, had serious problems adjusting to the environment--they kept to themselves and even failed classes, for the silliest reasons, like they couldn't get their heads around the notion of work being due at a certain time.

Extrapolating from that, I really can't see these people adjusting to any kind of a career without serious difficulty.

Yeah, I've met my share of those types also. Most of them were convinced that busywork and deadlines were "beneath them," that because they were smart, they shouldn't have to follow rules. In the cases where the mantra has been "homeschooled kids are automatically smarter, school is only dumbed down work to keep the masses occupied" I can see how they might come to think that way, but generally the response has been, "well, don't let the door hit ya on the way out, then."

It's important for kids to learn how to deal with externally imposed deadlines. Some people do that through their homeschooling program, other people make sure the kid gets a job or is on a sports team or something, some people have their kid sign up for national tests. It's not impossible to do by any means, but it's important to do it SOMEHOW.

On the other hand, it's true that a lot of work deadlines aren't absolute - unlike paper deadlines in a lot of schools, at work I've been able to adjust timelines. However, in order to get a time adjustment I better have a DAMN good reason and proof why the time is needed, not just "well, our team didn't get around to it this week" or "well, we don't think we need to run test cases, we're confident our stuff will just work."

Honestly, there are probably some aspects of work that homeschooling prepares better for, and others that public school prepares better for. But either way, you need GOOD schooling, not a neglectful parent OR a crappy school with uncaring teachers. I don't have a problem with homeschooling (or unschooling, done right) but rather with people who neglect their kids' educations and CALL it "unschooling" because they've heard of it somewhere and seems like an easy way out with having the authorities nosing around. Sadly I've met some really bad examples there (not fundie, either - just absent). The blog linked here had a kid essentially dropping out at 12 to teach younger siblings, and her parents justifying that by saying the usual "oh but homeschoolers don't need to spend as much time on schoolwork as public school kids do" thing. THAT is a horrible example of homeschooling.

As others said too, real unschooling is a lot of work - for the tutor in particular. You have to guide someone else's "free learning" and motivate them in the right direction so that the projects they end up doing actually have a balance to them and cover what needs to be covered. You have to make someone WANT to do various necessary gruntwork by getting them excited about what they get to do afterwards. Etc. Done well, it's amazing.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Yeah, I've met my share of those types also. Most of them were convinced that busywork and deadlines were "beneath them," that because they were smart, they shouldn't have to follow rules. In the cases where the mantra has been "homeschooled kids are automatically smarter, school is only dumbed down work to keep the masses occupied"

(snip) However, in order to get a time adjustment I better have a DAMN good reason and proof why the time is needed, not just "well, our team didn't get around to it this week" or "well, we don't think we need to run test cases, we're confident our stuff will just work."

I could have worded it better. It wasn't just these people having trouble with deadlines. It was like they had the idea that the whole institution was mutable, and could change to suit their needs. I don't think that idea will serve them in the future at all.

I don't have a problem with homeschooling (or unschooling, done right) but rather with people who neglect their kids' educations and CALL it "unschooling" because they've heard of it somewhere and seems like an easy way out with having the authorities nosing around. Sadly I've met some really bad examples there (not fundie, either - just absent). The blog linked here had a kid essentially dropping out at 12 to teach younger siblings, and her parents justifying that by saying the usual "oh but homeschoolers don't need to spend as much time on schoolwork as public school kids do" thing. THAT is a horrible example of homeschooling.

I do have a problem with homeschooling. I was formerly homeschooled myself, and even though my parents did care, I still am trying to get away from the way it affected me.

Homeschooling is, in most states, unregulated, or not regulated in an effective way. There is NO way to quantify its effectiveness and groups like HSLDA fight tooth and nail against rational legislation. Because they push parents "rights," children fall through the cracks.

There are almost NO standards for the textbooks, or the minimum educational standards. I feel like i was severely held back in math and science because my parents didn't know how to teach that or chose a Christian-flavored version.

There are NONE of the safeguards against abuse and spotters of developmental issues that public schools provide.

And--personally--I always felt "different" from other kids. I felt like I was missing out on what it was to actually have a childhood, and when I got with public schooled kids, I just did not have anything to talk about.

Some public schools might not be an ideal place for a child to learn, but that does not invalidate the problems with home schooling, and I think that most of them are still a better place as the staff is actually professionally trained and are more able to access resources.

[terranova]

Nice flounce, but try to make sure your daughter learns what an exponent is before she graduates high school. Although, if you really think math is as obscure and specialized as karate, I don't have a lot of hope for her.

Oh I didn't flounce, I'm not offended by this conversation, or why ever it is people do flounce. I'm happy with my life and the way I was raised and it's sad that I feel the need to defend it.

My daughter will learn maths if she wants to, and if not, she'll probably function as well in society as my husband who spent 18 years at school and can't add 2+2.

I'm actually quite good at maths, atleast, I can add, subtract, multiply, figure out percentages, divide, make chance, balance my bank account and many other day to day jobs. I don't see why this is offensive to so many people.

Maybe it's the American need to get your children through university and "succeed" academically. It's different here, we don't have that presure.

[emmiedahl]

Oh I didn't flounce, I'm not offended by this conversation, or why ever it is people do flounce. I'm happy with my life and the way I was raised and it's sad that I feel the need to defend it.

My daughter will learn maths if she wants to, and if not, she'll probably function as well in society as my husband who spent 18 years at school and can't add 2+2.

I'm actually quite good at maths, atleast, I can add, subtract, multiply, figure out percentages, divide, make chance, balance my bank account and many other day to day jobs. I don't see why this is offensive to so many people.

Maybe it's the American need to get your children through university and "succeed" academically. It's different here, we don't have that presure.

Learning math should not be optional in any acceptable education.

Obviously your husband can add and do a lot more than that mathematically if he has a degree.

[lorem ipsum]

Maybe it's the American need to get your children through university and "succeed" academically. It's different here, we don't have that presure.

Please tell me you're not in Australia. Please. Pretty please?

[Funky Chicken]

Please tell me you're not in Australia. Please. Pretty please?

*echoes plea*

[emmiedahl]

Maybe it's the American need to get your children through university and "succeed" academically. It's different here, we don't have that presure.

God forbid someone should raise a child with a chance of success.

I am curious about where you are from as well. I consider being educated and making a minimal living to be important and I imagine my children will feel the same way.

Like I said before, I was good friend and classmate to someone who was homeschooled with the same philosophy you seem to take. Her parents robbed her of the career she wanted and she no longer even speaks to them.

[Funky Chicken]

OT: Emmie, have you thought about applying to med schools in Australia? We have several graduate-entry programmes now, and my husband and I had lots of American classmates who have gone back to the USA afterwar and done well. It's just a thought given that it can be really competitive in the USA, and our programmes are more than comparable. Plus, all our international students had a blast living here for 4 years!

[emmiedahl]

OT: Emmie, have you thought about applying to med schools in Australia? We have several graduate-entry programmes now, and my husband and I had lots of American classmates who have gone back to the USA afterwar and done well. It's just a thought given that it can be really competitive in the USA, and our programmes are more than comparable. Plus, all our international students had a blast living here for 4 years!

I have never even considered this but I will definitely be looking into it! Thanks for the info.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I have never even considered this but I will definitely be looking into it! Thanks for the info.

What is going on down there? I just heard a story on the radio yesterday about Australian oil companies recruiting workers here in Texas.

[lilith]

I am in Australia, and I was feeling pretty stupid for having completed 2 unit maths in my HSC and not knowing what an exponent was.

So I looked it up, and I do know what it is! I had just learned it as an "index of a base number".

So I'm hoping that maybe there is a language barrier for terranova, rather than a lack of basic mathematical knowledge. Cause it's a concept my eight year old understands, and she is only in the second band for year 3 maths.

[Funky Chicken]

I have never even considered this but I will definitely be looking into it! Thanks for the info.

No worries! The programme I did at Flinders is modelled on the University of New Mexico's problem-based learning curriculum. I was in the first intake and it was so much more interesting than my first degree, and the learning "stuck" so much better. And it was brilliant getting out there and seeing patients from week 1 too.

[lilith]

What is going on down there? I just heard a story on the radio yesterday about Australian oil companies recruiting workers here in Texas.

We have heaps of international medical students here, when I was having my kids in public hospitals I only ran across one Australian born obstetrics registrar, out of at least a dozen I encountered all up.

Australia has a relatively small population, and often recruits workers skilled in particular fields internationally. It's sad, cause we also have quite a high unemployment rate, but the skilled workers are needed immediately, and most of the long term unemployed are unskilled. I wish there were better programs for training them as well as for importing labor though.

Edited because my iPad was putting words in my mouth

[Glass Cowcatcher]

We have heaps of international medical students here, when I was having my kids in public hospitals I only ran across one Australian born obstetrics registrar, out of at least a dozen I encountered all up.

Australia has a relatively small population, and often recruits workers skilled in particular files skills internationally. It's sad, cause we also have quite a high unemployment rate, but the skilled workers are needed immediately, and most of the long term unemployed are unskilled. I wish there were better programs for training them as well as for importing labor though.

Yeah, I feel your pain, I was thinking while listening to that that all the fundy bullshit really makes me want to leave the country sometimes, but really it's sad that unemployment is so high here that people are starting to leave.

[emmiedahl]

No worries! The programme I did at Flinders is modelled on the University of New Mexico's problem-based learning curriculum. I was in the first intake and it was so much more interesting than my first degree, and the learning "stuck" so much better. And it was brilliant getting out there and seeing patients from week 1 too.

That does sound nice. One of the schools I am applying to does the problem-based learning. I hear from so many physicians that they did not actually learn how to be a doctor until they started actually interacting with patients.

I am not opposed to the idea of actually living and working in another country. I want to work with poor, under-served communities but I imagine they have those everywhere.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Trust me, pressure to get into university and "succeed" is not only an American thing. If anything, I think the US is fairly laid back about it!

I do have a problem with homeschooling. I was formerly homeschooled myself, and even though my parents did care, I still am trying to get away from the way it affected me.

Homeschooling is, in most states, unregulated, or not regulated in an effective way. There is NO way to quantify its effectiveness and groups like HSLDA fight tooth and nail against rational legislation. Because they push parents "rights," children fall through the cracks.

I probably could have phrased things better in my own post, too. I think homeschooling can turn out well for some people. It's not automatically a recipe for disaster. But I do think that proponents (and the HSLDA is a BIG one) far too often cherry pick their evidence and show only the "good" examples, and that's where so much of this supposed "homeschooled students outperform public schooled students" elitism comes from, the idea that if we only homeschool our kid he will turn out to be a genius, and the public schools are for misbehaving kids, and so why waste your time there. Because it's unregulated, all the stats they have suffer from selection bias. And you get parents like in the linked blog who desperately want their kids to be little geniuses "to show those public schooled kids what's what" basically, but hey, look, didn't work out that way!

They will say, look, colleges all over accept homeschooled students all the time. Which they do. But what those people won't ever talk about is that other half (because apparently it divides pretty widely) that is just so far behind they don't even realize how far behind they are. And when that's pointed out, they run to the No True Scotsman argument.

Thing is, even the public schools in the US are so varied and local and without standard curricula that it already boggles my mind, coming from a place with a national curriculum. And then there are private schools, also largely unregulated, you can go to religious private schools in the US without much secular education beyond perhaps the 8th grade if you're lucky (and you can forget about science), where they don't teach in English. You can go to Amish schools that finish entirely after 8th grade.

Sometimes I wonder if it would help at all if there were some standardized tests required, not even for a grade or anything but just something to force that wake up call that hey, you know what? Your genius sheltered kid is actually three years behind his public schooled peers. That's even before talk of more official regulation...

I think that sometimes you have to make kids learn stuff they don't want to learn. Public schools (in places with a sane curriculum) will do that. Responsible homeschooling parents will do that. But without regulation, yeah, in the US you can completely escape it, if you want. And I do agree that's not fair to the kids. Sure, they can maybe catch up. But who wants to find out that they're lacking some basic skill 10 years after everyone else has moved on?

...and it always seems to be math and science that get the short shrift, for some reason. Surely because those two subjects are hierarchical and harder to teach yourself, plus they require drills, which aren't always "fun." But for some reason in the US it seems okay to say "oh, I'm just bad at math" in a way it isn't okay to say "oh, I don't read very well."

So I'm hoping that maybe there is a language barrier for terranova, rather than a lack of basic mathematical knowledge. Cause it's a concept my eight year old understands, and she is only in the second band for year 3 maths.

Language barrier can definitely happen! When I started university (in the US) there were plenty of math terms I had no idea of the English for. Luckily equations are written the same the world over though, so if the book has equations in it you can pick the terms up pretty quickly, also there are math dictionaries, or you can just get a review book for kids' math and read it, you'll know all the math so learn the language from there!

[emmiedahl]

In my state, annual testing is required. My kids always scored above the 90th percentile and usually above the 95th. I don't mind the testing because, as a homeschooling mom, I saw it as encouragement, proof that I was giving them the first class education that had been my goal in the first place.

[lilith]

So I'm hoping that maybe there is a language barrier for terranova, rather than a lack of basic mathematical knowledge. Cause it's a concept my eight year old understands, and she is only in the second band for year 3 maths.

Language barrier can definitely happen! When I started university (in the US) there were plenty of math terms I had no idea of the English for. Luckily equations are written the same the world over though, so if the book has equations in it you can pick the terms up pretty quickly, also there are math dictionaries, or you can just get a review book for kids' math and read it, you'll know all the math so learn the language from there!

[lorem ipsum]

I am in Australia, and I was feeling pretty stupid for having completed 2 unit maths in my HSC and not knowing what an exponent was.

So I looked it up, and I do know what it is! I had just learned it as an "index of a base number".

So I'm hoping that maybe there is a language barrier for terranova, rather than a lack of basic mathematical knowledge. Cause it's a concept my eight year old understands, and she is only in the second band for year 3 maths.

I really, genuinely hope this is the case.

I was homeschooled from second grade to graduation (and got a Bachelor's degree and am now 3/4 of the way through a Masters), so I have nothing against homeschooling when it's done correctly -- although in my opinion it's done poorly more often than it's done well, for a variety of reasons. At any rate, ignoring basic concepts =/= doing it correctly!

Then again, parents who don't place a high on value education/literacy are largely why I have a job, so maybe I shouldn't hope for a language barrier after all. :wink: (Totally kidding -- I'd MUCH rather have more parents highly invested in their children's education and be out of work!)

[ladidah]

Sometimes I wonder if it would help at all if there were some standardized tests required, not even for a grade or anything but just something to force that wake up call that hey, you know what? Your genius sheltered kid is actually three years behind his public schooled peers.

There are standardized tests. Many (not all) states require homeschooled students to take them. I had to take them as a homeschooled kid, just like all other school-aged kids in my state did. They were ludicrously easy, even in the areas that weren't my particular strong suit. Nowadays, in many districts, they're the same tests that many teachers are pressured to "teach to" instead of spending time on real, substantial education. As much as I wish there were higher standards for homeschooling in certain states, I can't see this particular form of standardized testing as the answer for low-performing homeschools or public schools.