Raised Quiverfull: Homeschooling

[terranova]

I'm glad to hear that it's a mix up in terminology. Will you, however, be ensuring that your daughter will have opportunities not only to explore these concepts in real life, but to also to explore them abstractly too? And if you don't have the skills or experience to teach it to her, will you find someone who can?

To me, the best type of homeschooling is done by cooperatives or by seeking out specialists as in Clibby's example. Where one parent lacks the skills in one subject, another parent with expertise or a community member can take over lessons for the kids involved. I think when parents limit themselves to just teaching their own children and restrict them to their family circle, you're really limiting their education. No parent will have a sufficiently in-depth knowledge of every subject to take their kid all the way through high school. It takes a village to raise a child...

As I have already explained, we belong to a homeschooling group made up of parents from many backgrounds. We all learn from each other and help our kids grow and thrive outside of the school system. We live in a smallish town so there is no co-operative as such (yet), just our fantastic group which is growing every day. :)

I am a strong believer in children learning best when it is something they want to learn and at a time they are ready to learn it. This may sound odd or strange or even abhorant to some people, but that's my belief. Do I say it raises perfect children? No, ofcourse not, but for me (as I have stated before) it was either stay in school and die or get out and live. I chose to live :)

[emmiedahl]

In life you do not always get to do exactly what you wish. We work best when we love our work; nonetheless, toilets have to be cleaned and taxes filed. Education is much the same way. If I let my 9 yo only learn what she wanted, she would read a lot and paint. No math, no history. If I let her eat what she wanted, she would live on cheetos and canned frosting. Both are equally destructive. It's a good thing she has a parent who cares enough about her to help her do the more difficult and necessary things.

[terranova]

In life you do not always get to do exactly what you wish. We work best when we love our work; nonetheless, toilets have to be cleaned and taxes filed. Education is much the same way. If I let my 9 yo only learn what she wanted, she would read a lot and paint. No math, no history. If I let her eat what she wanted, she would live on cheetos and canned frosting. Both are equally destructive. It's a good thing she has a parent who cares enough about her to help her do the more difficult and necessary things.

I guess we just have different opinions on how best to raise our kids. :)

[Austin]

I guess we just have different opinions on how best to raise our kids. :)

Looks like yours are in for a rude awakening if they want any other options besides what you have chosen. Your issues with education sound like just that: your issues. So you feel you didn't get the education you wanted and others are to blame. That would not necessarily be your children's fate and it's really not fair to project that onto them.

Learning something new is hard. How much do you know about neural pathways and brain plasticity? The reason learning feels hard (and not always fun) is because we are literally (physiologically) blazing a new trail in our brain when we learn something new. It's not then very surprising that there will be times when some children might not want to learn some of the things they should: because it's hard and they'd rather do something easier (a sentiment with which the whole human race can relate). That does not mean they shouldn't learn the hard thing. In fact, I would argue that the process of learning the hard thing (achievement) is what builds true self-esteem.

I saw this in action today. I went over the elementary school field day to take some photographs. The school had brought in a rock climbing wall. Fifth graders were harnessed up and when it came to be their turn, they could take a crack at climbing to the top. One little girl who was standing near me said, "Oh, I just don't think I can do this. This looks scary. I don't think I can", and on and on. I asked her if she wanted to do it, and she said something to the effect of "it would be fun" but that she probably "couldn't do it". I said "nonsense" and that if she wanted to do it, I was sure that she could do it. So she decided to give it a try.

She got about a third of the way up and it got harder. I stood at the bottom and simply encouraged her. "Remember, we climb with our legs" and urged her to stretch to reach that next rock with her hand. When she got stuck, I yelled up to her, "Don't give up - work it out - there's no hurry!" And she did work it out and she climbed higher and higher until she was at the top. Then she pushed back on her harness and let herself be lowered down and had the hugest smile possible on her face and gave me a huge hug (not that I had done anything really - she was just so happy!). She was so proud of herself. She could have stayed on the ground and done the easy and comfortable thing, but now she will be confident when faced with that sort of challenge in the future - a confidence she actually earned.

[valsa]

Looks like yours are in for a rude awakening if they want any other options besides what you have chosen. Your issues with education sound like just that: your issues. So you feel you didn't get the education you wanted and others are to blame. That would not necessarily be your children's fate and it's really not fair to project that onto them.

Learning something new is hard. How much do you know about neural pathways and brain plasticity? The reason learning feels hard (and not always fun) is because we are literally (physiologically) blazing a new trail in our brain when we learn something new. It's not then very surprising that there will be times when some children might not want to learn some of the things they should: because it's hard and they'd rather do something easier (a sentiment with which the whole human race can relate). That does not mean they shouldn't learn the hard thing. In fact, I would argue that the process of learning the hard thing (achievement) is what builds true self-esteem.

I saw this in action today. I went over the elementary school field day to take some photographs. The school had brought in a rock climbing wall. Fifth graders were harnessed up and when it came to be their turn, they could take a crack at climbing to the top. One little girl who was standing near me said, "Oh, I just don't think I can do this. This looks scary. I don't think I can", and on and on. I asked her if she wanted to do it, and she said something to the effect of "it would be fun" but that she probably "couldn't do it". I said "nonsense" and that if she wanted to do it, I was sure that she could do it. So she decided to give it a try.

She got about a third of the way up and it got harder. I stood at the bottom and simply encouraged her. "Remember, we climb with our legs" and urged her to stretch to reach that next rock with her hand. When she got stuck, I yelled up to her, "Don't give up - work it out - there's no hurry!" And she did work it out and she climbed higher and higher until she was at the top. Then she pushed back on her harness and let herself be lowered down and had the hugest smile possible on her face and gave me a huge hug (not that I had done anything really - she was just so happy!). She was so proud of herself. She could have stayed on the ground and done the easy and comfortable thing, but now she will be confident when faced with that sort of challenge in the future - a confidence she actually earned.

What's the old saying? Nothing worth having comes easy and nothing that comes easy is worth having?

Sometimes the oldies are the goodies.

[terranova]

Looks like yours are in for a rude awakening if they want any other options besides what you have chosen. Your issues with education sound like just that: your issues. So you feel you didn't get the education you wanted and others are to blame. That would not necessarily be your children's fate and it's really not fair to project that onto them.

Is it sooo hard for people to get that there are different ways to raise children?? Unschooling is a perfectly viable form of education, like it or not. One day I hope people will understand this.

I had a fantastic education (as previously stated), not sure where you get the idea that I didn't get the education I wanted. If I had any issues with the way I was raised, I would do things differently with my own kids. Had I stayed in school I would not be the happy, well rounded, productive member of society that I am today, I know this for a fact. I fail to see how staying in school and being destroyed on all fronts would be preferable to the person I am.

[valsa]

I had a fantastic education (as previously stated), not sure where you get the idea that I didn't get the education I wanted.

"the education I wanted" =/= "a fantastic education"

[Austin]

Is it sooo hard for people to get that there are different ways to raise children?? Unschooling is a perfectly viable form of education, like it or not. One day I hope people will understand this.

I had a fantastic education (as previously stated), not sure where you get the idea that I didn't get the education I wanted. If I had any issues with the way I was raised, I would do things differently with my own kids. Had I stayed in school I would not be the happy, well rounded, productive member of society that I am today, I know this for a fact. I fail to see how staying in school and being destroyed on all fronts would be preferable to the person I am.

Not at all. I think clibbyjo is an excellent unschooler. I think learning can take place in any number of environments, but when you start saying that an education which would include basic math skills is not necessary, there's going to be criticism. I'm pretty sure clibbyjo's kids know a lot more than basic math and she would be the first to admit that math is not her personal forte. There are many ways to skin a cat (sorry, cat lovers), but deciding basic skills aren't important for your children because you don't believe you need them is where the problem lies.

[valsa]

Not at all. I think clibbyjo is an excellent unschooler. I think learning can take place in any number of environments, but when you start saying that an education which would include basic math skills is not necessary, there's going to be criticism. I'm pretty sure clibbyjo's kids know a lot more than basic math and she would be the first to admit that math is not her personal forte. There are many ways to skin a cat (sorry, cat lovers), but deciding basic skills aren't important for your children because you don't believe you need them is where the problem lies.

Exactly.

Terranova, while some people in this thread don't believe in unschooling at all, many more just think you, and only you, are doing it wrong.

[margiebargie]

What's troubling me is Terranova's apparent attitude that if the kids don't want to learn a basic skill then just let them blow it off.

Austin's example about the little girl and the climbing wall was spot on. Look what that kid accomplished with some encouragement and guidance! My kid hated soccer, but I made her finish out the season. She wound up scoring one of two goals scored by her team all season.

I used to think I was bad at math. I got a little encouragement from a community college instructor. Today I'm an engineer. You just don't know what you can accomplish until you try. And you won't try until someone gives you a little push. In academics that someone is likely to be an educator. In a homeschooling situation, the primary educator is the parent.

[Renting with Raggles]

Have been following this thread for a while and just logged in to explain to emmie and others that terranova's attitude is not at all uncommon amongst Australians of a certain age.

During the 70s and 80s, Aussie educators took up the British system ( today usually known as "A-levels") with great enthusiasm. This system has students who plan to go to university specialise early (16 and 17) for the subject the will eventually read (major). The Brits retained the GCSEs which meant that students still had a pretty comprehensive education across a range of subjects up to the age of 15. Many of the Australian states decided go one better and allow students to specialise even earlier. Since Australian university entrance was based solely on a single aggregate college mark, lots of public schools encouraged students to drop subjects they found difficult as early as possible, so you do get people like my creationist colleague or terranova's husband who have not been exposed to maths or science courses since the age of 12 or 13. I know many people educated in public schools like Mr terranova who openly sneer at the idea of learning a second language, unless it directly leads to some form of employment. For the university bound, it was all about getting 'top marks' - so why bother with any subject except those you excel in naturally? As you can see for terranova's comments, the attitude is pervasive even in the homeschool community - "well-rounded"= whatever you happen to like to do.

Of course, this has resulted in a generation of doctors and engineers who can't write an English sentence, or politicians and journalists who don't know peer-reviewed science from a note by Jenny McCarthy scribbled on a cocktail napkin. This is also why Australia continues to recruit professionals from overseas. There's a big push to make public education more comprehensive, but there is considerable backlash from the terranovan portion of the population. Independent schools do quite well, adopting the IB or adapting the state systems so that all students must take certain core subjects.

[emmiedahl]

That is... worrisome.

One of the things that we do right in the US education system, imo, is the amount of breadth. Especially in universities. We have to take history, math, English, social sciences, hard science, etc no matter what our majors are. Many universities require a second language as well. And then there are also electives within our majors. If a person has a degree from an American university, it means they can write and do math and know a bit about the natural world and the human mind, in addition to whatever their major was.

So, from an American perspective, the belief is that you need some familiarity with a broad range of subjects in order to function. I can't imagine writing off math. It is appalling to me mainly because I would have written off math as a child, and then I would not be able to pursue the job I want. Also, history. I disliked it and it bored me until I encountered a very good professor in university who made it interesting, but I would never have decided to take it on my own.

[apple1]

In life you do not always get to do exactly what you wish. We work best when we love our work; nonetheless, toilets have to be cleaned and taxes filed. Education is much the same way. If I let my 9 yo only learn what she wanted, she would read a lot and paint. No math, no history. If I let her eat what she wanted, she would live on cheetos and canned frosting. Both are equally destructive. It's a good thing she has a parent who cares enough about her to help her do the more difficult and necessary things.

:clap: I agree completely.

Here is a real life, NOT exaggerated example.

25 year old male, totally homeschooled by Mama (not fundy, not religious in any way), never had a job of any kind before, never had to do anything on a schedule before. Very bright, lots of technical knowledge and abilities. Hired by my husband's employer to do a technical job. Sat one desk over from my husband. No problem with knowing what he was supposed to do.

Lots of problems with failing to do portions of the work he considered boring. Even more problems with time/attendance because he felt he should not have to show up at any particular time.

No need to guess what the outcome was.

[starfish]

Lots of problems with failing to do portions of the work he considered boring. Even more problems with time/attendance because he felt he should not have to show up at any particular time.

No need to guess what the outcome was.

[Renting with Raggles]

That is... worrisome.

One of the things that we do right in the US education system, imo, is the amount of breadth. Especially in universities. We have to take history, math, English, social sciences, hard science, etc no matter what our majors are. Many universities require a second language as well. And then there are also electives within our majors. If a person has a degree from an American university, it means they can write and do math and know a bit about the natural world and the human mind, in addition to whatever their major was.

So, from an American perspective, the belief is that you need some familiarity with a broad range of subjects in order to function. I can't imagine writing off math. It is appalling to me mainly because I would have written off math as a child, and then I would not be able to pursue the job I want. Also, history. I disliked it and it bored me until I encountered a very good professor in university who made it interesting, but I would never have decided to take it on my own.

Well, don't worry too much; it is changing. Hell, I'm an IB teacher - and doesn't that piss some people off!

The whole Australian specialisation thing started when university education became free and accessible to everyone - you had to filter out people by using their marks rather than social class, so people found a way to get around that filter and maximise their marks. Americans pay through the nose for education but you do get to have more control over what you learn...

I'm starting to make a libertarian argument for user-pays education. I'm going to stop now. :oops:

[Haligh the Liar]

I've posted about my issues with homeschooling before, but the short version is this: while students may know the facts of what they are studying, the social/interactional aspects of home schooled college students are problematic. So many of the ones I've taught have extreme difficulty in doing group work, working without constant monitoring and feedback, and engaging in activities they don't like or agree with.

[AmyP]

Looks like yours are in for a rude awakening if they want any other options besides what you have chosen. Your issues with education sound like just that: your issues. So you feel you didn't get the education you wanted and others are to blame. That would not necessarily be your children's fate and it's really not fair to project that onto them.

Learning something new is hard. How much do you know about neural pathways and brain plasticity? The reason learning feels hard (and not always fun) is because we are literally (physiologically) blazing a new trail in our brain when we learn something new. It's not then very surprising that there will be times when some children might not want to learn some of the things they should: because it's hard and they'd rather do something easier (a sentiment with which the whole human race can relate). That does not mean they shouldn't learn the hard thing. In fact, I would argue that the process of learning the hard thing (achievement) is what builds true self-esteem.

YES! The brain thing! You are better off trying your best to learn a hard subject (like higher math) and failing, then you would be if you limit your learning to what is easy and comfortable. If you can unschool your kids, and provide a diverse, challenging environment that integrates traditional subjects (like math) in non-traditional ways that spark their interest, then great. But that is really hard to do in all subjects. It is far easier to get a good math curriculum like teaching textbooks or chalkdust and make them work at it for 30 minutes a day. They learn self discipline in the face of an unwanted task, and they learn that they can, in fact do things they don't really like or find interesting. Work ethic is a thing that needs to be taught. Most people are willing to work hard at something they want to do. However, life required most of us to work hard at things we HAVE to do, and may not like. If you unschool, you are going to have to find some other way to teach work ethic. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying it won't happen by magic.

And really, spelling also needs to be taught to the vast majority of people. Some people are instinctive spellers. Most are not, and homeschoolers are, as a group, awful spellers.

[thoughtful]

I'm a word-nerd, and my brain tends to go blank when numbers are involved.

Fighting that blankness, working on basic arithmetic as well as higher math, may have been some of the most important educational experiences I had. And it wasn't always unpleasant -- I have some lovely memories of teachers who were patient with me, and made the logic and beauty of math shine through.

I need only basic numerical skills on a daily basis. My work does not involve higher math at all.

But I'm still glad I learned it, and I strongly suspect that it did good things for my brain, ability to see the world, and confidence that I can do things I find difficult.

Terranova, I certainly hope that your repeating that your husband "can't add 2+2=4" is just a figure of speech, and not literally true. He must have some numerical ability, just to survive.

As for the OP, it sounds like exactly what I've always imagined is happening in the homes of overpopulated, education-shunning, girl-restricting fundie households. What an awful thing to do to children.

[ladidah]

Some people are instinctive spellers. Most are not, and homeschoolers are, as a group, awful spellers.

Eh? That hasn't been my experience. Most of the homeschoolers I know spell well. Hell, most of the homeschoolers on FJ spell well. In the absence of actual data, I don't see the point in this or any of the other anecdote-derived generalizations on this thread.

As to all the "homeschoolers I met/heard of/taught were like X" anecdotes—really? For one thing, do those of you making these claims have any basis for thinking you even know precisely which people you've met were homeschooled? Most of the people who've met me in my adult life haven't a clue I was homeschooled, because the topic doesn't come up often and I don't go out of my way to make an issue of it. Nor do many of my formerly homeschooled friends. Many of us would rather get on with the project at hand than get sidetracked fighting stereotypes.

[emmiedahl]

That is not my quote, btw.

[VVV]

I don't think it's the be all and end all to learn algebra when you're 9. If you want to learn if you can at any age, can't you? Does learning stop when you get to 18?

If you want to speak French, learn how to paint, play the violin and tap dance, but didn't learn when you were a child, is that inexcusable too? What makes algebra sooooo important? I'm 32 and to my knowledge, have never suffered because I don't know "basic concepts".

Actually, I went to school until I was 11. Algebra wasn't part of the curriculum until college.

Coming back late after a very long day; I am really surprised that my post generated so much discussion. I didn't consider anything in it controversial.

One reason it's better to learn algebra at 12 or 13 than at 20 or 25 is that algebra is a basic building block for many, many fields of study and careers, and the sooner you learn it, the more options you have as an older teen or adult. The other reason is that the 25-year-old brain is different from the 13-year-old brain. As we mature, our brains lose plasticity. There is a reason why many great scientific and mathematical discoveries are made by people in their 20's and very few are made by people in their 40's. But if you don't get around to learning algebra until adulthood, the door has been slammed shut on entire categories of possible future careers.

The young woman to whom I was referring in my previous post is fully capable of learning math. She just was never expected to. As a result, she'll never know whether or not she might have enjoyed being an engineer, a mathematician, a statistician, an actuary, a scientist. It will take her too long just to get to the level of math where she could make reasonable decisions about a future in those fields. Her mother effectively made those decisions for her years ago.

Learning to play the violin is actually a really good comparison in a way. If you don't start studying the violin when you're very young, you're unlikely to attain a high level of competence, and you have no hope of reaching the professional level. I'm a professional violinist, and I started at age five. My colleagues mostly started between ages four and seven. I have only ever known one professional violinist who started as late as 12, and he practiced like a demon all through adolescence. You cannot wake up one day as an 18-year-old or a 25-year-old and decide that you're going to be a violinist. That door slammed shut a decade or more before. The same is true of dancers.

The big difference between learning algebra and learning the violin, however, is obviously that everyone needs to know basic algebra to increase a recipe, to progress in any field of math or science, or even just to avoid wasting a semester or two (or three) of tuition taking remedial math courses at university that do not count towards a degree. But not being able to play the violin only closes the door on a future as a violinist. It doesn't eliminate a possible future in a host of other fields the way not knowing algebra does.

It is possible to homeschool, even unschool, and make sure that your child masters a full curriculum. But I stand by my statement that allowing your child to "graduate" from high school without having progressed beyond a sixth-grade math level is educational neglect.

[YPestis]

I grew up studying under a structured curriculum in public and private schools. Honestly, I can't imagine an educational curriculum where I'm learning whatever catches my fancy. The closet I got to that was when picking electives in college. I enjoyed picking "fun" classes and some of them were highlights of my college career.

That said, I also feel had my parents allowed me to learn what I wanted, when I wanted, I would have missed out on so much things. Worse, many careers would have been closed to me. I would have skipped fractions and trigonometry, physics and chemistry lab, I would never open up a language arts book, and most definitely have avoided any mention of Chinese.

My mom was quite insistent I learn Chinese, forcing me to spend hours writing the characters, even making me speak it at home despite my natural inclination to answer back in English. To this day, I remain fluent enough to pass for a "native" in China and could write letters in Chinese.

As others pointed out, there is merit to "making" kids learn things they don't enjoy. Children are not mature enough to understand why they must do unpleasant things. While many are intrinsically curious, they are also naturally lazy. Given a choice of fraction problems and Final Fantasy, I think we know what most kids would choose. It is up to the parents to make sure children are given opportunities to thrive and learn and that may include "forcing" them to sit and do math problems. If a homeschooling parent is unable to do this, they should seek outside resources. Ignorance is not an excuse to deprive children of a good education.

Looking back, I think being "forced" to learn things I detested had two positive outcomes. Firstly, it made me understand hard work and adversity. Secondly, it opened up doors in future careers that would otherwise be closed. I learned that while I hated practicing my violin, doing so made me improve and I could produce beautiful music for all to enjoy. I also realized by taking hated classes, it opened me up to future careers that I was interested in. It laid the foundation for me to enter engineering school, and later medical school.

So....as much as I detested chemistry and all its derivative classes (get it? haha), a basic knowledge of it is quite useful as a physician. As much as I hated physics, aspects of it were moderately useful in my physiology classes. And as much as I hated trigonometry.....well, it was required for calculus which was required for engineering school. Lastly, as much as I hated studying Chinese (and I hated it with a passion), it means I can speak to my aging grandmothers to this day.

Some people may think what was done to me probably beat out any enjoyment of learning. I would argue, on the contrary, I learned the value of education because I now realize the price of not learning those topics would have been.

[ladidah]

That is not my quote, btw.

I'm so sorry! I must have messed up the formatting. I went back and fixed it.

[ladidah]

VVV and YPestis, I completely agree with you. In my opinion, good homeschooling should encourage children in their natural abilities and special interests, as clibbyjo described, to the extent that the parents' budget permits. It should also encourage children to work diligently in their less favored subjects. Some people nowadays call that "unschooling"; when I was a kid, we just called it "homeschooling." (And we had the same problems good unschoolers now have in differentiating what they do from lazy parenting. I doubt those problems will go away in the near future.)

[Daenerys]

I don't know what an exponent or a distributive property is either. Maybe they are called something different in England? I got an A in my maths exams and understood almost all of the concepts I was taught, so I imagine they must be. We only do maths up to the age of 15/16 in this country, though, so it's a long time since I had to solve any problems!