Quick argument against Biblical corporal punishment

[StarrieEyedKat]

:(

Wow, even most pro-spanking people I know would never hit someone else's child...

[Koala]

A few questions:

Newborns don't really need much of any discipline

What do you mean a newborn doesn't need "much of any" discipline? Does that imply that they need some, but not much? Confused here.

You're right... I do see spanking a newborn as being wrong, but I wouldn't tell that to another parent unless they ASKED my opinion

So are you saying that if you saw a parent hitting their newborn you wouldn't say anything unless they asked you your opinion?

I believe PERSONALLY that a baby or toddler should not be spanked because they are not old enough to understand

The age of understanding would be different for different kids.

I had already stated that I thought spanking a 15-18 month old wouldn't be something I would do because the child is not old enough to understand.

I would most likely call CPS if said child was under a year. After a year, it would depend on if I saw signs of abuse.

First you say that a baby or toddler should not be spanked. Then you say that it should be based on when they reach the "age of understanding". Then you say that as long as the child being hit is over a year you would only call CPS if you saw bruises. Are you implying that a 1 year old is past the baby and toddler stage and has entered the "age of understanding", or are you just saying that babies over a year only deserve protection when the abuse has escalated to the point of leaving bruises.

Would you call CPS on the mom of the newborn that you didn't want to tell not to hit their infant?

Personally, I would not hit a child with a wooden board. But I would not tell other parents (or schools) that they can't or shouldn't.

Am I understanding that you won't come right out and say that it's wrong to hit a child with a wooden board under any circumstanaces?

I most likely wouldn't have spanked an older teen, not because I see it as wrong, but because I don't think it would have been as effective as other methods at that age.

I NEVER said that I thought spanking an older teen was wrong

If I heard my neighbor was spanking a 19 year old teen, I might pull that teen aside when I had the chance and ask if they felt safe or if they needed help.

Hmm...isn't 19 an "older teen"? What age does it become wrong? If you don't think hitting an older teen is wrong, then why would you offer the 19 year old help? At what age does it go from being A-Okay, to a situation where you would intervene and offer your help.

I also find it odd that you would offer to help a 19 year old, but with a newborn you wouldn't want to force your opinion on the mom.

[Koala]

misquote...sorry

[emmiedahl]

Why would you hit a child before they are even old enough to understand?

[StarrieEyedKat]

I also find it odd that you would offer to help a 19 year old, but with a newborn you wouldn't want to force your opinion on the mom.

Yeah, that makes no sense to me...you see someone spanking a child that's small and unable to defend themselves and you do nothing. You see someone spanking a 19 year old that's an adult and feasibly able to either defend themselves or leave the situation and that's when you intercede? I don't get it. What makes spanking the 19 year old so much worse than spanking the child? :think:

[bananacat]

I strongly, very very strongly, suspect that She Who Laughs is far more abusive than she is admitting to and that's why she is defending this so hard. Basically every study ever has shown that people lie when admitting to how much they hit their kids. She Who Laughs has probably hit infants and teens and with much more than an open hand, and far more often than she is letting on. And there's really no arguing with an abuser because she thinks she is always right. She can't just hit us all for disagreeing with her and it must be very frustrating for her, but I don't believe for a second that she is non-abusive with her spanking.

[She Who Laughs]

Why would you hit a child before they are even old enough to understand?

And exactly when did I say I would?

[formergothardite]

She Who Laughs, the reason I wanted everything spellled out is because by saying that you wouldn't tell a parent when they can start and stop hitting their children, you were saying (by default) that it is okay for parents to hit their infants. Apparently, you think that it is okay for a parent to hit their 13/14 month old, which is still pretty deplorable. Can they hit their over one child with a board? As long as it doesn't leave bruises? Can they use plumbing line like the Pearls? Will you leave that up to personal preference or come out and say hitting a 14 month old with a board is always wrong and shouldn't be allowed?

[She Who Laughs]

I strongly, very very strongly, suspect that She Who Laughs is far more abusive than she is admitting to and that's why she is defending this so hard. Basically every study ever has shown that people lie when admitting to how much they hit their kids. She Who Laughs has probably hit infants and teens and with much more than an open hand, and far more often than she is letting on. And there's really no arguing with an abuser because she thinks she is always right. She can't just hit us all for disagreeing with her and it must be very frustrating for her, but I don't believe for a second that she is non-abusive with her spanking.

Thanks for the comic relief. Nope, never hit an infant or toddler. Nope never hit a child over age 10-11. Have never hit a teenager. Have never used anything other than an open hand. Have never hit anywhere except on the child's bottom. Have never left any bruise, redness, or anything else, the swats just weren't hard enough to cause any physical injury whatsoever. Did I raise my voice at times (not during spanking)? Yes, and those are the things I regret. I don't regret the spankings. And it's funny how those scientific studies didn't hold true for my family. My kids always had 3.5GPAs and above, always got excellent comments for behavior and how they treated others, never served a single detention or got called to the principals office, stood up for other kids who were being bullied, did volunteer work as teens, have great jobs, wonderful spouses and kids, have close relationships with me and my husband (we get together frequently just to hang out and talk).

I have never witnessed any parent ever hit a newborn or even a young toddler. I guess if I ever witness such a thing I will have to decide what to do about it. I have never had anyone tell me that they hit their newborn or young toddler. I guess if anyone ever tells me that, then I will have to decide what to do about it. I will say that every parent has the right to raise their child the way they want. If those choices end up being abusive then it is the responsibility of those who witness it or know about it to do something about it. I will not be going up and down my street looking for potential abusive victims or knocking on people's doors interrogating them on how they raise their kids.

When I referred to the use of a board I believe we were referring to the fact that some schools in some states use a paddle on the kids and that it is legal if there is parental consent. In those specific instances if the law allows it and if the parents have consented then obviously it isn't wrong since both the state and the parents have determined that it isn't wrong. People who feel passionately about it and feel it is wrong should be the ones then to try to do whatever necessary to challenge the law and get it changed.

I already stated that I personally don't believe in using ANYTHING other than an open hand. What other parents decide to use is up to them. See, what you people just aren't getting is that what parents choose to use, is just that, THEIR choice. If they break the law and abuse their child, then something needs to be done about it and hopefully someone who witnesses it or knows about it will turn them in, that's the way it works. Will children be abused behind closed doors with no one to help them? I am sure that will always be the case because there will always be those types of people who would abuse children. That would be the case whether or not spanking is legal. The laws about spanking could change, the USA could become another country that outlaws it, but that won't suddenly make all child abuse go away.

Those of you who are against parents using spanking as a means of discipline should maybe just stop whining about it on a message board and actually go out and try to get the law changed. And as I have also said, I haven't spanked any child in more than 20 years.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Geez, I knew I shouldn't have opened this thread, I might have already ground down my back teeth from frustration. Once again I will pledge not to open any threads about corporal punishment.

You know, I was sexually abused as a child. It made me incredibly repressed and fearful, but hey, I stayed a virgin until I was 21, so that's good, right? Now, as an adult, I have a very positive sexual relationship with my partner. I guess since I "turned out fine", it's totally ok to molest kids, and we really shouldn't pass judgment on those who do it, since in many cases it can lead to sexually healthy adults. Right?

[She Who Laughs]

She Who Laughs, the reason I wanted everything spellled out is because by saying that you wouldn't tell a parent when they can start and stop hitting their children, you were saying (by default) that it is okay for parents to hit their infants. Apparently, you think that it is okay for a parent to hit their 13/14 month old, which is still pretty deplorable. Can they hit their over one child with a board? As long as it doesn't leave bruises? Can they use plumbing line like the Pearls? Will you leave that up to personal preference or come out and say hitting a 14 month old with a board is always wrong and shouldn't be allowed?

I think using all of these hypothetical situations is getting ridiculous. Next will you ask if it's ok to hit a child who is 14 months, 2 days, 3 hours, 8 minutes and 16 seconds old. NONE of these situations you keep coming up with have ever happened with anyone I know. And as I said in my last post, the day that I see someone hit a baby or tell me they hit their baby, at that moment I will make a decision as to what I will do. I think it is absolutely ridiculous to sit around and think up every single scenario with every single age and try to decide what I would do. I have things to do, a job, and a life. Thinking up hypothetical situations is stupid.

Excuse me now as I drive for two hours to visit my 90 year old mother in the nursing home. I visit her every weekend, she's the same mother who spanked me as a child and who I love dearly and have NEVER in my entire life felt that how she raised me was bad or wrong or abusive. She was about as perfect a mother a person could have and my childhood was pretty idyllic.

[emmiedahl]

And exactly when did I say I would?

You were talking about hitting toddlers, who don't really understand. Even if they walk and talk, there is no ability to reason and make a decision.

[Boogalou]

*snip*

When I referred to the use of a board I believe we were referring to the fact that some schools in some states use a paddle on the kids and that it is legal if there is parental consent. In those specific instances if the law allows it and if the parents have consented then obviously it isn't wrong since both the state and the parents have determined that it isn't wrong. People who feel passionately about it and feel it is wrong should be the ones then to try to do whatever necessary to challenge the law and get it changed.

*snip*

I'm not going to wade into the whole spanking debate but the bolded is absolutely ridiculous. Just because some people and the state say that something is legal/not illegal does not mean that it isn't wrong. I present to you a list of things that we view as wrong today that have been legal or at least not prosecuted in the past: slavery and the forcible removal of people from their homes, segregation, marital rape, residential schools, child labour, wife beating, rape of women in lower classes especially domestic servants, eugenics and forcible sterilization, and women/minorities/etc. being barred from voting. Just because the state says it's ok and some people agree with them does not make it inherently good or "obviously not wrong".

[emmiedahl]

When I referred to the use of a board I believe we were referring to the fact that some schools in some states use a paddle on the kids and that it is legal if there is parental consent. In those specific instances if the law allows it and if the parents have consented then obviously it isn't wrong since both the state and the parents have determined that it isn't wrong. People who feel passionately about it and feel it is wrong should be the ones then to try to do whatever necessary to challenge the law and get it changed.

Since when do abusers get to decide what constitutes abuse?

[Koala]

When I referred to the use of a board I believe we were referring to the fact that some schools in some states use a paddle on the kids and that it is legal if there is parental consent. In those specific instances if the law allows it and if the parents have consented then obviously it isn't wrong since both the state and the parents have determined that it isn't wrong.

So if something is legal, and there is parental consent then it can't be wrong?

What other parents decide to use is up to them. See, what you people just aren't getting is that what parents choose to use, is just that, THEIR choice.

Okay, so we have established that hitting children with your hands and boards are "not wrong" (according to you), what about belts? Is that still "THEIR" choice? What about plumbing line? Still "THEIR" choice?

If a law is passed that makes it legal to hit newborns will that be "not wrong" as long as the parents consent?

[StarrieEyedKat]

Those of you who are against parents using spanking as a means of discipline should maybe just stop whining about it on a message board and actually go out and try to get the law changed.

Why are people always saying things like this? Like, because we're talking about it on a message board automatically means we don't do things IRL to advocate change. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Why are people always saying things like this? Like, because we're talking about it on a message board automatically means we don't do things IRL to advocate change. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Just a way to shut people up. If it's not that, it's "Are you really whining about spanking when children are being executed in [insert country]?" Just because the latter is terrible doesn't mean the former is not, or that we shouldn't spend time opposing the former.

[formergothardite]

I think using all of these hypothetical situations is getting ridiculous. Next will you ask if it's ok to hit a child who is 14 months, 2 days, 3 hours, 8 minutes and 16 seconds old. NONE of these situations you keep coming up with have ever happened with anyone I know. And as I said in my last post, the day that I see someone hit a baby or tell me they hit their baby, at that moment I will make a decision as to what I will do. I think it is absolutely ridiculous to sit around and think up every single scenario with every single age and try to decide what I would do. I have things to do, a job, and a life. Thinking up hypothetical situations is stupid.

Excuse me now as I drive for two hours to visit my 90 year old mother in the nursing home. I visit her every weekend, she's the same mother who spanked me as a child and who I love dearly and have NEVER in my entire life felt that how she raised me was bad or wrong or abusive. She was about as perfect a mother a person could have and my childhood was pretty idyllic.

They are not hypothetical for me. I grew up around people who hit babies, who hit toddlers, even here on Free Jinger we have discussed blogs of fundies who hit babies and toddlers. Why are you not willing to say hitting a toddler is always wrong? It took forever to get you to admit that hitting an infant is always wrong and shouldn't be a personal choice. Do you really think that the people I knew and the blogs we have read that the parents should be allowed to hit toddlers with their hands, a board, a belt, plumbing line or long glue sticks? This is a yes or no question, shouldn't take long to answer. Should parents be allowed to CHOOSE to hit their toddler or is it ALWAYS wrong to hit a toddler?

When something is always wrong, I don't have to wait to see it in real life to say that it is always wrong. So I don't buy the line that you have to wait to see it in real life to decide if it is right or wrong. If you believe it is wrong to hit a toddler, then you should be able to say that without seeing it.

[Conuly]

For that matter, the most common argument for spanking is that you use it with children "too young to reason with". What children are those? Babies and toddlers! By the time they're 3 they're more than old enough to reason, and they try to do it every single day. Forget preschool, we ought to send the brats straight to law school. :roll:

It's all the time you read about people whose first and only way to get a kid to not touch this or that is to "pop" their hand.

Excuse me now as I drive for two hours to visit my 90 year old mother in the nursing home. I visit her every weekend, she's the same mother who spanked me as a child and who I love dearly and have NEVER in my entire life felt that how she raised me was bad or wrong or abusive. She was about as perfect a mother a person could have and my childhood was pretty idyllic.

As I stated before, few people can look at their upbringing objectively. I certainly can't. The fact that you love your mother and call her "perfect" doesn't mean that she was right to discipline you that way. All it means is that if you started questioning spanking you'd feel like you were questioning her, and wouldn't that be scary?

[JesusFightClub]

Bit confused.

Small and Smaller are smacked by their dad for misbehaviour. Open hand on,clothed bum.

But none of us, if babysitting, would dream of doing it. I'm not comfortable with it, to say the least. Their grandparents used to believe in smacking but no longer do. Their other aunts and uncles, though not the least violent people ever, don't believe in "hitting weans".

I can understand a mum or dad smacking a kid (though I do not like it). I don't get why any person charged with taking care of the kid would hit them too.

[emmiedahl]

As I stated before, few people can look at their upbringing objectively. I certainly can't. The fact that you love your mother and call her "perfect" doesn't mean that she was right to discipline you that way. All it means is that if you started questioning spanking you'd feel like you were questioning her, and wouldn't that be scary?

I think that is the issue.

My mother is a saint, a great person who I respect and love and see as a role model. But she hit us. It has been something we had to acknowledge and deal with. All of her positive parenting was over-shadowed by my fear of her throughout my childhood. Now that we have dealt with it, I have let go of it and can see her for what she is: a fun, quirky, somewhat impulsive person, who is also someone who was stressed out and overworked and physically ill and surrounded by people who told her she was a bad mom if she did not hit us.

It *is* scary. You want to believe your mom is perfect, but no one is. The fact that someone says that indicates that they have a lot of baggage they are glossing over.