Quick argument against Biblical corporal punishment

[luckylibrarian]

Like jaynie, I hit up the databases (SocIndex, to be specific.) She Who Laughs, you won't listen to AAP because you think they are excluding "other things" going on in the home. :roll: How do you respond to the following study? This study surveyed 1071 Spanish university students. All students were from two parent homes (either mother and father, or a home with one parent and one step-parent.) In selecting students for the study, the researchers eliminated students who reported ever being spanked with a paddle, belt, brush, etc. So we have intact homes and no spanking with an implement - thus eliminating your "other things."

Here is the citation for anyone interested:

Stacks, A., Oshio, T., Gerard, J., & Roe, J. (2009). The moderating effect of parental warmth on the association between spanking and child aggression: a longitudinal approach. Infant & Child Development, 18(2), 178-194. doi:10.1002/icd.596

The findings of the study include:

Findings indicated that CP and psychological aggression tend to go together. Almost 9 out 10 of parents who used CP also used psychological aggression, which is consistent with previous studies (Bartkowski & Wilcox, 2000; Wissow, 2001 ).

[Corporal punishment] was found to be linked to an increased probability of [antisocial traits and behaviors] regardless of whether there was positive parenting. This is an important result because it provides empirical evidence contradicting the claim that CP has no negative consequences when is used by loving and supportive parents (Larzelere, 2000; RipoU-Núñez & Rohner, 2006).

These results suggest that CP per se is a risk factor for developing an antisocial orientation, as has been found in two longitudinal studies (Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997; Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997) and with the results of a meta analysis of research on CP (Gershoff, 2002a) which found a large and unusually consistent body of research showing that CP tends to be an important risk factor for deviant behavior.

In addition, although both opponents and defenders of CP agree that severe physical discipline is harmful, the results of this study, along with other empirical research, show that mild and moderate CP is also related to child behavior problems.

I'm sure She Who Laughs will ignore this completely because it is real data and not anecdata that proves her point.

ETA: Re: She Who Laughs's statement that she has never met anyone who was anti-spanking. My guess is that in polite conversation with strangers or people outside of the circle of close family and friends, people are more likely to conceal their extreme beliefs (to the left or the right) because they don't want to risk getting into an argument. I would like to know exactly how many people She Who Laughs has surveyed about the topic of spanking during her travels.

[bananacat]

Yeah, same people are fine with spanking toddlers for doing things little curious people do, like wander away or start playing with things they shouldn't. Granted, toddlers don't exactly understand the concept of "danger," when what they're doing is dangerous (like the oh-so-popular "running into the street" :roll:) .

But here's the thing. If the kid can understand the concept of danger from a parent, then why can't they understand the concept of danger from other things? If they just can't understand danger, then spanking (or threat of it) doesn't seem like it would be very effective.

[adidas]

1. If you read the Bible as saying that you MUST spank all children, in order to prevent them from becoming horrible sinners, that would mean that there are NO children who weren't spanked who are decent.

I wasn't spanked and turned out fine. My kids weren't spanked, and get perfect conduct grades. [i'm not saying that it's all due to my perfect parenting as opposed to luck, but clearly lack of spanking didn't turn them into delinquents.)

2. Therefore, the verses on the rod must meaning that you use it IF NECESSARY, not that it is mandatory.

3. You cannot know whether or not corporal punishment is truly necessary unless and until you seriously try positive parenting/non-physical discipline.

4. Why not use physical punishment even if other methods exist? Because the Golden Rule makes it pretty clear that you need to treat others - including your children - as you would want to be treated. It's not okay to break the Golden Rule just because you find it less effort to spank, if the spanking is not truly necessary.

5. If you are still worried about disregarding something in Proverbs, take your Bible and read Proverbs - ALL of it. You'll notice a lot of emphatic, even extreme language, because the text is trying to make a point. If you still want to claim that every line is meant to be taken literally as a directive, read Proverbs 23 and think about what you would need to do if you were invited to a White House dinner and felt hungry. Presumably, you wouldn't answer "stab yourself in the throat" - but that's the literal meaning of the verse.

A shepherd doesn't use his rod to belt his sheep around, he uses it to gently guide them in the right direction. The rod doesn't ever touch the sheep. If it did, the sheep would be scared and would run away.

[formergothardite]

I'm horrified that She Who Laughs hasn't come back and said that hitting newborns is always bad. I wonder if that falls under parents get to start hitting their children when they want and stop when they want? What makes it go from parent hitting child is okay to parent hitting child is assault? I'm assuming she doesn't think parents should be able to hit their children when there whole life, but maybe she does?

[geniebelle6901]

Wow she did say she starting disciplining her kids the minute they were born! :angry-screaming: :angry-cussingblack: UNBELIEVEABLE!!!

[HijabiLady]

I am soooo late to this dance but I thought I would add my 2 cents. Anecdotal at best but it's my own data.

My brothers and I were spanked with a belt by our alcoholic step father for anything he deemed as "defiance." Defiance included things like dropping nails in the backyard while carrying them to the front yard, not straightening the newspaper pile correctly, and many things too numerous to remember. Hw would delay our punishment with the excuse he did not want to hit us in anger. From a child's perspective it was agony to sit in my room and wait for his heavy footfall to finally come down the hall and met out my punishment.

Did we turn out "fine." In a word, No. My oldest brother is an unemployed pill popping alcoholic who has tried to commit suicide multiple times. My next brother is in prison for life....for crimes I don't wish to disclose here. Me, well after some years of therapy and a LOT of self study I have an MD and will begin my residency this year. Guess what specialty? Psychiatry. Yeah, irony huh? My childhood was one of fear, depression and an overwhelming sense of helplessness as I faced hitting from a larger and more powerful adult in my life. In laymen's terms, my step father was a bully. When you hit your kids, you are a bully.

They may turn out "fine" but that is in spite of your "spankings."

[Conuly]

I wouldn't say that's universal, being spanked myself as a kid... everyone I knew growing up was spanked as well. I can't think of a single person who wasn't.

I've seen a few studies (while trying to find an entirely different study that seems to have dissolved into the ether) that seem to suggest that negative effects of spanking are exacerbated when it's unusual.

That is, it's not great when every family on the block spanks their kids, but it's *normal* to them and that's that, but if only ONE family spanks the bad consequences (violence, sneakiness, depression, lowered curiosity in childhood) are magnified because their family is freakishly violent.

That other study I'm trying to find, I read it a year ago, is about how parents of toddlers who spank their children in order to keep them from doing dangerous things (specifically, leaving a yard that might lead to a road) are less effective at getting their children to stay in the yard than those who use reasoning and redirection.

And back on that subject, I believe having an inside lock to an outside door that requires a key is considered a massive safety hazard in case of fires. It might not even be legal where you are. I recognize that you can't watch your child every moment, but I'd suggest a second non-key latch placed up higher and a door alarm, possibly a gate in the yard. The second lock would slow the kid down, the alarm would alert you if he got that far, and the gated yard would delay him while you darted out the house to grab him but would not constitute a fire hazard because he's outside the house at that point.

[jaynie]

Now, don't go confusing the situation with your data and facts and garbage like that. :roll:

Sorry, it's this strange compulsion I have to Know About Stuff and to make informed decisions. I'll have to get over that! :lol:

[luckylibrarian]

Sorry, it's this strange compulsion I have to Know About Stuff and to make informed decisions. I'll have to get over that! :lol:

You'd never make it as a fundie!

[She Who Laughs]

I'm not going to try to go back and read all the posts I missed. I will however address the comment I made about disciplining my children from the moment I had them. I find it hilarious the assumptions you all come to based on the use of the word discipline. For one thing, I had already stated that I thought spanking a 15-18 month old wouldn't be something I would do because the child is not old enough to understand. But yet you somehow come to the conclusion that I would hit a newborn. Do you all have some sort of issue with reading and comprehension? And since when does discipline automatically mean physical punishment? What I meant by disciplining starting from the moment I had them was that as a small baby, discipline can mean things as simple as keeping them on a schedule and making sure they are eating regularly and getting enough to eat as well as making sure they are getting enough sleep, aren't being over stimulated, etc. For a baby that is crawling or starting to walk it can mean redirecting and distracting them when they want to go places or get into things that they shouldn't. It can also mean putting up baby gates to keep them off of stairs or out of the kitchen. For an older baby or toddler it can mean helping them learn how to go to sleep in their crib without the need to be rocked to sleep and to help them learn how to go back to sleep if they wake in the middle of the night. This can be done by going in and reassuring them of your presence, laying them back down if they are standing, patting them on the back, soothing them, singing to them, etc. Generally it would mean doing all of this things with the exception of picking them up (unless they are sick, need changed, or need fed).

So for the sickos on this board who think I would condone hitting an infant, you are wrong. I never spanked my children as infants and would never spank my grandkids as infants. They aren't old enough to understand and it would be counter productive.

For the person who mentioned the woman who admitted hitting her newborn, I hope someone reported her to CPS. And about the father who used a board to paddle his 25 year old daughter, that is just beyond bizarre in my book. Bizarre that he would do it in the first place and even more bizarre that a 25 year old woman would allow it to happen. That is obviously a family with some severe dysfunction going on and I would hope that someone, somewhere who knows about it and knows who this family is and where they live would try to get them some help. I don't have a problem with 20+ adult children living with their parents, but they should at that age either be working and contributing to their own room and board or they should be taking at least some college classes, even if it is through an online or distance learning program. And any child who is of legal age and their parent wants to paddle them a board then that adult child would best be advised that it is time to move out. If they are ill-equipped to move out because of how they were raised then I would hope they would have enough sense to seek out some sort of group or agency for help in making that transition.

And while a lot or even most of my "argument" is based on anecdotal evidence, I don't really care. I don't live my life or make every decision in my life based on scientific research or peer reviewed studies. I do what I feel is best for me and my family based on many things. And I always find it interesting that on FJ anecdotal evidence is fine and never questioned as long as it goes along with the majority of what the group thinks. But as soon as it is contrary to what the group thinks then everyone jumps on the bandwagon and suddenly wants scientific studies for evidence.

I've said pretty much all of what I am going to say on the topic in that yes, I was a parent who spanked (obviously it has been many, many years since I have done any spanking since my youngest is 31 and he probably had his last spanking around age 8 or 9). But for my children who have also chosen to spank, I will follow their wishes when it comes to any times when I might have to discipline their children when they are with me without their parents. As a grandparent, I don't intervene in those situations as long as one of the parents is there, that is their job. Of all the things I did as a parent, spanking is probably the thing I regret the least or even at all. The things I regret the most would be the times when I raised my voice or the opportunities I missed to play with them because I mistakenly thought having a super neat and tidy home was a high priority. I am not making that mistake with my grandkids and take every opportunity to play with them and try to never raise my voice with them either.

[Rosa]

Here's the problem: you're using the exact same language as the people (like the Pearls, and Focus on the Family) who DO use discipline to mean spanking.

So until you spell out just exactly what you mean, we have to guess.

[formergothardite]

So let me get this straight, spanking an infant is wrong, correct? So you do think you should be able to tell parents when they should be able to start and stop spanking? What if the child being spanked is 19? Is that wrong? When does it go from an okay thing to do to assault and why does that happen?

And yes, I like things to be spelled out for me.

[B5SnowDog]

WTF??? A teacher unilaterally decided to hit your sister's kid?

One of our local vice-principals spanked a high school student without the parents' permission and was praised in the community for doing so. Some places in the US are so fucked up.

[She Who Laughs]

So let me get this straight, spanking an infant is wrong, correct? So you do think you should be able to tell parents when they should be able to start and stop spanking? What if the child being spanked is 19? Is that wrong? When does it go from an okay thing to do to assault and why does that happen?

And yes, I like things to be spelled out for me.

So why do you keep repeating the same questions over and over that I have already answered? I already stated that I personally would not spank an infant and I would not spank an older teen (and then I clarified older teen for you since you couldn't figure it out yourself). Those were my PERSONAL decisions. I DON'T believe in telling other parents what to do or not do or how to raise their children. It is not appropriate for me to try to tell other parents what they should do. I wouldn't and didn't even tell my own children what to do or not do when it came to their parenting decisions, because that is their PERSONAL decision. How many times do I have to repeat myself? So you like things spelled out...that's fine, but I shouldn't have to spell it out repeatedly.

As I said in previous posts, there are a lot of things that I think are wrong (many of which people here think are a-ok), but I wouldn't try to tell anyone here or anyone else how they should feel about those same issues. I believe that is one of America's greatest strengths, we are free to make our decisions based on our own personal convictions without outside interference as long as we are not breaking the law. My own PERSONAL feelings about what is right or wrong is just that, PERSONAL. My feelings about it are NOT for the family next door. However, it is my right (and my duty) as a citizen to report someone if I suspect there is abuse going on or if I suspect a child may be in imminent danger. So if I had a neighbor who admitted to me that she smacks her newborn, then I would report her to CPS and let them investigate – I believe in letting the system work. If that same neighbor ASKED for my advice on whether or not she should hit her newborn, then I would definitely give her an earful and I would even be up front and tell her that I would have to report her to CPS if I heard or suspected she was hitting her newborn.

If I heard my neighbor was spanking a 19 year old teen, I might pull that teen aside when I had the chance and ask if they felt safe or if they needed help. If I saw evidence of abuse like bruises or other injuries and I felt that 19 year old was in danger, then I would also call authorities and let the system work. I would not however, walk up to my neighbors house, knock on the door and proceed to tell them how wrong they are and how they should be handling things in their family. That is not appropriate or even safe to do in this day and age. Does that spell it out clearly enough for you?

[B5SnowDog]

When I was a kid, I noticed that other kids who were spanked were the sneakiest and the most deceptive. Their parents thought they were well-behaved angels but they were the ones getting away with everything they could behind their parents' backs.

That was my experience. My mom once told me she wondered why I would lie about insignificant things and then she realized I did it out of fear. She says that if she had to do it over again, she would never spank. She just didn't know any better. Children should never fear their parents.

[StarrieEyedKat]

I'm not going to try to go back and read all the posts I missed. I will however address the comment I made about disciplining my children from the moment I had them. I find it hilarious the assumptions you all come to based on the use of the word discipline. For one thing, I had already stated that I thought spanking a 15-18 month old wouldn't be something I would do because the child is not old enough to understand. But yet you somehow come to the conclusion that I would hit a newborn. Do you all have some sort of issue with reading and comprehension? And since when does discipline automatically mean physical punishment? What I meant by disciplining starting from the moment I had them was that as a small baby, discipline can mean things as simple as keeping them on a schedule and making sure they are eating regularly and getting enough to eat as well as making sure they are getting enough sleep, aren't being over stimulated, etc. For a baby that is crawling or starting to walk it can mean redirecting and distracting them when they want to go places or get into things that they shouldn't. It can also mean putting up baby gates to keep them off of stairs or out of the kitchen. For an older baby or toddler it can mean helping them learn how to go to sleep in their crib without the need to be rocked to sleep and to help them learn how to go back to sleep if they wake in the middle of the night. This can be done by going in and reassuring them of your presence, laying them back down if they are standing, patting them on the back, soothing them, singing to them, etc. Generally it would mean doing all of this things with the exception of picking them up (unless they are sick, need changed, or need fed).

So for the sickos on this board who think I would condone hitting an infant, you are wrong. I never spanked my children as infants and would never spank my grandkids as infants. They aren't old enough to understand and it would be counter productive.

dis·ci·pline verb \ˈdi-sə-plən\

transitive verb

1

: to punish or penalize for the sake of enforcing obedience and perfecting moral character

2

: to train or develop by instruction and exercise especially in self-control

Neither of those seem to be appropriate for a newborn, so maybe it's not our reading comprehension but your inability to express yourself clearly.

[apple1]

So exactly how do you "discipline" a newborn infant "from the moment you had them"? By Debi Pearl-esque "gently pulling" their hair? Exactly what do you do?.

Still waiting for the answer to this. Exactly what?

[She Who Laughs]

dis·ci·pline verb \ˈdi-sə-plən\

transitive verb

1

: to punish or penalize for the sake of enforcing obedience and perfecting moral character

2

: to train or develop by instruction and exercise especially in self-control

Neither of those seem to be appropriate for a newborn, so maybe it's not our reading comprehension but your inability to express yourself clearly.

I would see it as training and exercise and helping them develop and grow. If you don't like my choice of words, too bad.

[apple1]

I would see it as training and exercise and helping them develop and grow. If you don't like my choice of words, too bad.

Since you say that discipline = training and exercise, then define

training ("gently pulling" the newborn's hair???)

exercise (I'm pretty sure you are not talking jumping jacks and situps)

[She Who Laughs]

Still waiting for the answer to this. Exactly what?

Answered that in the last post on page 8. Newborns don't really need much of any discipline and no, I wouldn't pull a newborns hair. A lot of the discipline with a newborn is actually more of self-discipline on the part of the parent. By making sure the newborn is fed, warm, getting enough sleep, not being overstimulated, bonding with parents, feeling safe and secure, etc. you are helping them grow and develop.

Exercise in my example would be to exercise a routine. Routines are great for babies.

[apple1]

Answered that in the last post on page 8. Newborns don't really need much of any discipline and no, I wouldn't pull a newborns hair. A lot of the discipline with a newborn is actually more of self-discipline on the part of the parent. By making sure the newborn is fed, warm, getting enough sleep, not being overstimulated, bonding with parents, feeling safe and secure, etc. you are helping them grow and develop.

No, you didn't.

You are now backtracking. The bolded is CARE, not discipline. Not by any definition anywhere. You are just denying because you have been backed into a corner by your own words.

[StarrieEyedKat]

I would see it as training and exercise and helping them develop and grow. If you don't like my choice of words, too bad.

For someone that was so het up about saying "spanking" instead of hitting, I'm surprised you want to use "disciplining" instead of something more appropriate. And why the "too bad"? I'm just trying to understand what you mean when you say "discipline" because around here, certain words can have a deeper meaning since we follow people like the Pearls. You really can't just say "Maybe discipline was too strong of a word."

Newborn babies aren't meant to be trained, they're meant to be fed, changed and loved. When they're older, then sure, appropriately "train" them (although I really hate that word) but a 1 week old? Really?

[She Who Laughs]

No, you didn't.

You are now backtracking. The bolded is CARE, not discipline. Not by any definition anywhere. You are just denying because you have been backed into a corner by your own words.

No not backtracking, just clarifying...as in where I said "A lot of the discipline with a newborn is actually more of self-discipline on the part of the parent." And I also said that if you didn't like my choice of words, too bad.

I never hit, pulled hair, or inflicted ANY type of physical punishment on any of my children as newborns or toddlers, EVER. How much more clearly do I need to spell it out? Do you get it yet? I also said some of the things that I did do to help them grow and develop and the types of specific things that I did when they were older babies and toddlers (distraction, baby gates, redirection, helping them learn how to go to sleep by themselves by using reassurance, singing, soothing, etc.). If that is too difficult to understand than I have to wonder if you were schooled at the dining room table and just can't comprehend.

[Conuly]

I'm confused. Hitting (spanking, paddling, whatever) a baby or toddler is "sick", and hitting (spanking, paddling) a teenager is potentially abusive and grounds for you to ask the child if they feel "safe" and need help... but in between those years it's a-okay?

The correct way to discipline a toddler is to redirect, and the correct way to discipline your underage teen is... I'm not sure, but presumably one of those other 'lame' techniques, but none of this works for kids in the middle, is that it?

[StarrieEyedKat]

No not backtracking, just clarifying...as in where I said "A lot of the discipline with a newborn is actually more of self-discipline on the part of the parent." And I also said that if you didn't like my choice of words, too bad.

Here's the thing though, you don't get to just make up definitions for words. "Disciplining" means something, and it does not mean "care for your infant and practice self discipline."