Quick argument against Biblical corporal punishment

[formergothardite]

So why do you keep repeating the same questions over and over that I have already answered? I already stated that I personally would not spank an infant and I would not spank an older teen (and then I clarified older teen for you since you couldn't figure it out yourself). Those were my PERSONAL decisions. I DON'T believe in telling other parents what to do or not do or how to raise their children. It is not appropriate for me to try to tell other parents what they should do. I wouldn't and didn't even tell my own children what to do or not do when it came to their parenting decisions, because that is their PERSONAL decision. How many times do I have to repeat myself? So you like things spelled out...that's fine, but I shouldn't have to spell it out repeatedly.

As I said in previous posts, there are a lot of things that I think are wrong (many of which people here think are a-ok), but I wouldn't try to tell anyone here or anyone else how they should feel about those same issues. I believe that is one of America's greatest strengths, we are free to make our decisions based on our own personal convictions without outside interference as long as we are not breaking the law. My own PERSONAL feelings about what is right or wrong is just that, PERSONAL. My feelings about it are NOT for the family next door. However, it is my right (and my duty) as a citizen to report someone if I suspect there is abuse going on or if I suspect a child may be in imminent danger. So if I had a neighbor who admitted to me that she smacks her newborn, then I would report her to CPS and let them investigate – I believe in letting the system work. If that same neighbor ASKED for my advice on whether or not she should hit her newborn, then I would definitely give her an earful and I would even be up front and tell her that I would have to report her to CPS if I heard or suspected she was hitting her newborn.

If I heard my neighbor was spanking a 19 year old teen, I might pull that teen aside when I had the chance and ask if they felt safe or if they needed help. If I saw evidence of abuse like bruises or other injuries and I felt that 19 year old was in danger, then I would also call authorities and let the system work. I would not however, walk up to my neighbors house, knock on the door and proceed to tell them how wrong they are and how they should be handling things in their family. That is not appropriate or even safe to do in this day and age. Does that spell it out clearly enough for you?

I'm repeating them because you aren't giving clear answers. You say things like " I won't tell a parent when they can and can't start or stop spanking." but then you say spanking a newborn is wrong. That is saying telling a parent when they can and can't start spanking. How young would it have to be for you to report them to CPS? 6 months? A year?

What about a 17 year old, would you help a 17 year old whose parent's were hitting them?

[Beb]

This is getting ridiculously nitpicky now. While I agree with many of the anti-spanking points, I believe She has very clearly defined and explained her stance on the entire subject. Hell, she has even suggested it probably is the adult who is "disciplined" in the case of an infant by structuring the environment and applying it to that infant.

From Merriam Webster:

dis·ci·pline noun \ˈdi-sə-plən\

Definition of DISCIPLINE

1: punishment

2obsolete : instruction

3: a field of study

4: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character --

5a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : self-control Would this not be a part of scheduling and responding to the infant based upon scheduling? (I wasn't that sort of parent, but nonetheless, it is not cruel and unusual.)

6: a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity This may also apply.

Surely there are enough critical thinking skills around here to figure out She was not speaking of hitting infants.....especially after her very clear explanation.

[She Who Laughs]

As I said, I believe it is actually more of SELF-DISCIPLINE on the part of the parent - which would in fact be associated with disciplining. So I chose the wrong word, big fucking deal, so sue me. It is more of disciplining on my part because I had to have SELF-DISCPLINE to get them on a schedule, be consistent with a routine, make sure they were getting enough sleep, not being over-stimulated.

[StarrieEyedKat]

As I said, I believe it is actually more of SELF-DISCIPLINE on the part of the parent - which would in fact be associated with disciplining. So I chose the wrong word, big fucking deal, so sue me. It is more of disciplining on my part because I had to have SELF-DISCPLINE to get them on a schedule, be consistent with a routine, make sure they were getting enough sleep, not being over-stimulated.

Honestly, I don't care that you used the wrong word. If you had just said "Sorry, I used the wrong word" then I wouldn't have picked at it. But when you tell us all that we're misreading and "too bad" if we don't like the words you use, then I have an issue with it.

This is getting ridiculously nitpicky now. While I agree with many of the anti-spanking points, I believe She has very clearly defined and explained her stance on the entire subject. Hell, she has even suggested it probably is the adult who is "disciplined" in the case of an infant by structuring the environment and applying it to that infant.

From Merriam Webster:

Surely there are enough critical thinking skills around here to figure out She was not speaking of hitting infants.....especially after her very clear explanation.

No, I don't think she meant she was hitting her infants, but around here "discipline" is a loaded word since we do follow the Pearls and others. I think people were trying to clarify if SheWhoLaughs meant that she disciplined her infants in a Pearlesque or Babywise type of way or if she simply meant she cared for them.

[Conuly]

As I said, I believe it is actually more of SELF-DISCIPLINE on the part of the parent - which would in fact be associated with disciplining. So I chose the wrong word, big fucking deal, so sue me. It is more of disciplining on my part because I had to have SELF-DISCPLINE to get them on a schedule, be consistent with a routine, make sure they were getting enough sleep, not being over-stimulated.

Well, of course, not everybody thinks that babies belong on a schedule, but let's move on. It's easy to misspeak when you're upset.

Why is it sick to spank a baby or toddler but not an older child (and then why is it again wrong for older teens)?

[She Who Laughs]

I'm repeating them because you aren't giving clear answers. You say things like " I won't tell a parent when they can and can't start or stop spanking." but then you say spanking a newborn is wrong. That is saying telling a parent when they can and can't start spanking. How young would it have to be for you to report them to CPS? 6 months? A year?

What about a 17 year old, would you help a 17 year old whose parent's were hitting them?

You're right... I do see spanking a newborn as being wrong, but I wouldn't tell that to another parent unless they ASKED my opinion. I don't go over to a neighbor's house when they bring home a newborn and grill them on how they are raising said infant, do you?? I assume they are caring for their infant to the best of their ability and it is really NONE of my business unless they specifically ask for my advice on an issue or if I suspect abuse. I don't keep a long list of criteria in my house that I post by the door or phone so I can check to see if it meets my criteria of right and wrong and I would guess that you don't either. If I suspected any child of ANY AGE was being abused based on what they said or physical evidence I saw with my own eyes I would call CPS. If a neighborhood kid told me their parent spanked them, I would not call CPS because spanking where I live is not illegal. UNLESS that child also showed signs of abuse (bruises, other injuries, etc.). If there were signs of abuse I might ask a simple question like "How did you get that bruise?" Or 'What do you mean by spanked?" I am not a mandatory reporter therefore any decision on calling CPS is at my own discretion.

[She Who Laughs]

Well, of course, not everybody thinks that babies belong on a schedule, but let's move on. It's easy to misspeak when you're upset.

Why is it sick to spank a baby or toddler but not an older child (and then why is it again wrong for older teens)?

Repeating, AGAIN... I believe PERSONALLY that a baby or toddler should not be spanked because they are not old enough to understand...see previous posts where I said the same thing, multiple times.

Repeating, AGAIN... I NEVER said that I thought spanking an older teen was wrong (you're misquoting me), I said that by that age I thought that other methods were more effective and therefore spanking was no longer needed.

These are from my PERSONAL decisions, based on my PERSONAL experiences. I am not saying that everyone should believe the same way I do. If people want to use time-outs and never use spanking, then go for it. That's your right to make that decision for YOUR kids. It was my right to make that decision for MY kids. If you are so passionate about being anti-spanking, then take it up with someone who can change the laws.

[formergothardite]

Most people I know now wouldn't spank a newborn or really spank at all. But in a conversation(like this), I would have no qualms in saying up front and clear that babies should neve be spanked. Ever. Period. If at the beginning when this w you would have just stated, "Spanking newborns is always wrong and parents shouldn't be allowed to do so." it would have been a lot clearer.

If a neighbor's child said that they spanked the 6 month old in the family, would you call CPS? You have said hitting newborns is always wrong, but at what point does it become more gray to you? At what age do you think it should it be a personal decision to hit a child and not one that it is always wrong? And don't say, well it will differ with each child. There has to be a cut off point for you where if you heard you don't think it is always wrong and wouldn't call CPS.

And would you offer to help the 17 year old like you would the 19 year old who was being hit by his parents?

[She Who Laughs]

Most people I know now wouldn't spank a newborn or really spank at all. But in a conversation(like this), I would have no qualms in saying up front and clear that babies should neve be spanked. Ever. Period. If at the beginning when this w you would have just stated, "Spanking newborns is always wrong and parents shouldn't be allowed to do so." it would have been a lot clearer.

If a neighbor's child said that they spanked the 6 month old in the family, would you call CPS? You have said hitting newborns is always wrong, but at what point does it become more gray to you? At what age do you think it should it be a personal decision to hit a child and not one that it is always wrong? And don't say, well it will differ with each child. There has to be a cut off point for you where if you heard you don't think it is always wrong and wouldn't call CPS.

And would you offer to help the 17 year old like you would the 19 year old who was being hit by his parents?

I would most likely call CPS if said child was under a year. After a year, it would depend on if I saw signs of abuse. As I said, I am NOT a mandatory reporter, therefore any decision to call CPS would be at my discretion and most likely based on surrounding circumstances.

And I already said I would help any age child who asked for help or who showed signs of being abused.

[deelaem]

You're right... I do see spanking a newborn as being wrong, but I wouldn't tell that to another parent unless they ASKED my opinion. I don't go over to a neighbor's house when they bring home a newborn and grill them on how they are raising said infant, do you?? I assume they are caring for their infant to the best of their ability and it is really NONE of my business unless they specifically ask for my advice on an issue or if I suspect abuse. I don't keep a long list of criteria in my house that I post by the door or phone so I can check to see if it meets my criteria of right and wrong and I would guess that you don't either. If I suspected any child of ANY AGE was being abused based on what they said or physical evidence I saw with my own eyes I would call CPS. If a neighborhood kid told me their parent spanked them, I would not call CPS because spanking where I live is not illegal. UNLESS that child also showed signs of abuse (bruises, other injuries, etc.). If there were signs of abuse I might ask a simple question like "How did you get that bruise?" Or 'What do you mean by spanked?" I am not a mandatory reporter therefore any decision on calling CPS is at my own discretion.

If it takes bruises and visible injuries to get you to speak up for a child, I would NEVER leave a child alone with you, lady. You're fuckin' scary.

[She Who Laughs]

If it takes bruises and visible injuries to get you to speak up for a child, I would NEVER leave a child alone with you, lady. You're fuckin' scary.

So you randomly go up and down the streets of your neighborhood and call CPS on people when you have no evidence or signs of any abuse going on? Wow, would hate to be your neighbors.

[deelaem]

So you randomly go up and down the streets of your neighborhood and call CPS on people when you have no evidence or signs of any abuse going on? Wow, would hate to be your neighbors.

Can you point out where in my post I said that I did that?

[emmiedahl]

I wish you would go back and read all the studies that people tracked down and posted for your edification.

I know spankers are not really into hard facts and data, but it would be good to educate yourself about what hitting a child does to them even if you are a loving, positive parent.

[She Who Laughs]

Can you point out where in my post I said that I did that?

Well, I'd like to know how you have determined who to call CPS on if there are no bruises or signs of injury. Unless you either do it randomly or you pull neighborhood kids into your garage and grill them about how their parents treat them.

[apple1]

Wow, we need to whip out the "Thou Shalt Not Commit Logical Fallacies" chart and see how many times SWL made a hit with her pro-spanking arguements.

1. strawman

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

2. false cause

You presumed that a real or perceived relationship between things means that one is the cause of the other.

3. tu quoque

You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism.

4. personal incredulity

Because you found something difficult to understand, or are unaware of how it works, you made out like it's probably not true.

5. burden of proof

You said that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove.

6. ambiguity

You used a double meaning or ambiguity of language to mislead or misrepresent the truth.

7. bandwagon

You appealed to popularity or the fact that many people do something as an attempted form of validation.

8. appeal to authority

You used the opinion or position of an authority figure, or institution of authority, in place of an actual argument.

9. genetic

You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came.

10. begging the question

You presented a circular argument in which the conclusion was included in the premise.

11. (this is my personal favorite) anecdotal

You used a personal experience or an isolated example instead of a sound argument or compelling evidence.

12. middle ground

You claimed that a compromise, or middle point, between two extremes must be the truth.

Whew - that's 12! That took some doin'! But it all really boils down to her thinking she's right because she says she's right. And that bit about FJ being a bunch of extremists? That had me laughing out loud. Does she think that having strong opinions means you're an extremist? If that's the case, then may I suggest she follow the trial of Anders Behring Breivik for a better example of extremism.

13. Equivocation - misleading use or redefinition of a term (i.e. "discipline")

[deelaem]

Well, I'd like to know how you have determined who to call CPS on if there are no bruises or signs of injury. Unless you either do it randomly or you pull neighborhood kids into your garage and grill them about how their parents treat them.

First of all, I said nothing about calling CPS. Calling CPS is only one way to protect children. I was talking about the seemingly lackadaisical attitude you have towards parents who hit their babies. I would assume you'd be the person who'd look the other way when they saw a child getting hit in a store, or if your friend were to smack their child, etc. There don't have to be visible injuries for it to be abuse. There doesn't even have to be hitting for a child to be abused. And to do nothing about any of it means a person is colluding with the abuse.

But you're right, I do bring children in my garage and grill them. They taste lovely with barbeque sauce.

[Conuly]

But you're right, I do bring children in my garage and grill them. They taste lovely with barbeque sauce.

Just so long as you don't beat them first. That's for the eggs.

[Koala]

I would most likely call CPS if said child was under a year. After a year, it would depend on if I saw signs of abuse. As I said, I am NOT a mandatory reporter, therefore any decision to call CPS would be at my discretion and most likely based on surrounding circumstances.

And I already said I would help any age child who asked for help or who showed signs of being abused.

So based on what you're saying (unless you're still randomly choosing words and assigning new definitions to them :roll: ) it's okay to hit your children as long as they are between the ages of 1-19.

Is there a particular reason you disregard peer reviewed studies and recommendations by the American Academy of Pediatrics? Do you think that perhaps it is at least worth looking into on the off chance that hitting a child is detrimental to them? Or are you so dead set on hitting that you refuse to look at evidence that might suggest that your behavior is harmful?

[emmiedahl]

Why is it okay to hit a willful 11 year old and not a willful 20 year old?

[Anxious Girl]

Why is it okay to hit a willful 11 year old and not a willful 20 year old?

^ This. This is what I'm wondering as well. I'm 20. Is it ok for my parents to hit me?

[Koala]

I started disciplining my children from the moment I had them.

As I said, I believe it is actually more of SELF-DISCIPLINE on the part of the parent

I just went back and read your original statement. You clearly state that you started disciplining your children from the moment you had them. You are crystal clear about that. You don't even hint that you are referring to disciplining yourself. :roll: Feeding a baby and taking care of their basic needs is not discipline. That's just stupid. Those two statements to not mesh.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Why is it okay to hit a willful 11 year old and not a willful 20 year old?

Might have been said already, but usually the "right" age to stop spanking is whenever the kid can hit back.

[Koala]

What scares the shit out of me is that she is already planning to hit her grandchildren. :( Poor kids will be getting hit by parents AND grandparents.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

What scares the shit out of me is that she is already planning to hit her grandchildren. :( Poor kids will be getting hit by parents AND grandparents.

Are her kids are actually hitting or did she say that in an "I'm sure they will once they actually have kids?" way?

[Koala]

Are her kids are actually hitting or did she say that in an "I'm sure they will once they actually have kids?" way?

My kids have come to me and told me they appreciated the parenting they received, including the spankings and that is why they have chosen to also spank and I support them 100%.

if the time came where I was watching their kids for them than I would use the method they chose for discipline in my house as well.

But for my children who have also chosen to spank, I will follow their wishes when it comes to any times when I might have to discipline their children when they are with me without their parents.

:(