Quick argument against Biblical corporal punishment

[Koala]

I love how anti-spankers call it hitting, they like to do that to make it sound violent and "disgusting."

I hit my children with my open hand on their buttocks.

Devil's in the details...

[She Who Laughs]

I have had someone suggest I spank\beat sense into my special needs child. :(

I have heard in some states it's legal for schools to paddle kids there was a reality show about it on TV.

The high school I went to paddled kids (30+ years ago). I doubt they do now. I knew a lot of kids personally who thought about doing some wild and crazy thing at school and then changed their minds from fear of the paddle.

[debrand]

Like I said, you can call it what you want. If you want to call it hitting, then so be it. I hit my children with my open hand on their buttocks. It was done just hard enough to sting and cause discomfort but not to the point of being painful for the rest of the day or so they couldn't sit down. If anything, it was painful for the moment and then 5 minutes later (or less) the pain would be gone.

Then why spank at all? I don't understand why spankers insist that popping a child on the butt is effective. Why would the swat be better then otehr methods?

And it is usually spankers who seem more extreme to me then nonspankers.

[Koala]

Great, that was your right to say something just as it is her right to raise her child the way she sees fit, unless she is breaking a law. If I had lived in an area where there was a law against spanking, then I wouldn't have broken the law, I would have been forced to either comply with the law and find other ways to discipline or move somewhere where it wasn't against the law.

I don't think a child that young should be spanked as they are not old enough to completely understand and were probably just over tired, over stimulated, hungry, wet, etc. In that instance I might have said something also as I wouldn't have felt spanking was appropriate in that same situation you described. But, I would also understand that if the law wasn't against it, it was ultimately her decision to do what she felt was best.

Yeah, laws can be really fucked up. It used to be legal for a man to hit his wife.

What ages do you think are good for hitting ones children?

[She Who Laughs]

Not to mention spanking is still hitting, so if hitting is wrong, then spanking is wrong.

Then I don't consider the spanking kind of hitting to be wrong. There are a lot of things I consider wrong that most, if not all, people on this board wouldn't consider to be wrong. So since something is wrong in my opinion does it mean you all should see it as wrong also? Of course not. So you see spanking as wrong, I don't. And I doubt there's anyone on this board or any study that someone could show me that would convince me otherwise.

[formergothardite]

The high school I went to paddled kids (30+ years ago). I doubt they do now. I knew a lot of kids personally who thought about doing some wild and crazy thing at school and then changed their minds from fear of the paddle.

I know of older people who the fear of getting hit by an adult as a teen didn't cause them to change their mind.

When is it okay to start hitting children and to what age can you hit them? You seem to feel from this post that the teen years are okay, how old does the child have to be for it to become wrong for an adult to hit them?

[She Who Laughs]

Yeah, laws can be really fucked up. It used to be legal for a man to hit his wife.

What ages do you think are good for hitting ones children?

The age of understanding would be different for different kids. There's no way to name a specific age that would fit every kid for every circumstance.

[debrand]

WTF??? A teacher unilaterally decided to hit your sister's kid?

It is legal in some states for parents to paddle kids. About the only thing her sister can do is change schools. :(

[Third]

I believe the reality show was called the Principal's office and in some schools a student [high school age] should choose a certain number of hits with a paddle over another punishment like detention or picking up trash.

[Koala]

I hit my children

And I doubt there's anyone on this board or any study that someone could show me that would convince me otherwise.

Just trying to keep up.

[geniebelle6901]

WTF??? A teacher unilaterally decided to hit your sister's kid?

Yes she did, and she got fired for it. The whole family (me included) wanted to see that teacher eat that paddle! She was one bat-shit crazy bitch who should never be around children!

[She Who Laughs]

I know of older people who the fear of getting hit by an adult as a teen didn't cause them to change their mind.

When is it okay to start hitting children and to what age can you hit them? You seem to feel from this post that the teen years are okay, how old does the child have to be for it to become wrong for an adult to hit them?

As I stated there is no way to state a specific age as it would be different for every child. As far as how old...don't know what that would be for every kid in the universe. Personally, I never had to spank my kids past the age of 9 or 10. By then they seemed to understand what was expected of them and while they still did dumb things that kids do, there was never any more blatant disobedience or in your face rebellion that I felt warranted a spanking. So for our family, 9 or 10 was when they no longer needed spankings. In other families it would probably be different.

[Koala]

I knew a lot of kids personally who thought about doing some wild and crazy thing at school and then changed their minds from fear of the paddle.

So (in your mind) is it okay to hit a child with a paddle?

[tinuviel]

She who laughs, I think earlier you mentioned that fear can help keep kids in line. (Sorry if I've got this wrong--getting a little lost in the thread here.) In any case, lots of pro-spanking people in my acquaintance do use this reasoning.

Anyway, to that I'd say that I think there's a lot more to good behavioral and moral development than fear of an authority figure. In fact, I think good behavior through fear of authority probably isn't a good thing in the long run anyway.

When I was too little to understand much, my mom taught me by creating consistent habits. "If you hit your brother, then you have to stay alone in your room for a few minutes without toys and such until you're ready to behave kindly again." "If you throw a fit in the restaurant, we're going to go home. If you want to have a nice time eating chicken fingers, you need to act in a reasonable way."

When I was too little for even these basic things, my mom just supervised, and kept me out of harm's way.

When I got older, I started to (mostly) behave well for my mom because I wanted to make her happy and proud of me. I knew that if I earned her trust through good behavior, then I would earn privileges as well. She also made a point of explaining the rules to me on a regular basis.

Then when I was even older, I started to behave well because I'd begun to develop some rationality and moral sense of my own through my mom's encouragement and help with good habits.

With my dad, my behavior was the same, but the reason was different. I behaved for my dad because I was afraid of him. His discipline method was mostly composed of spanking and yelling. That fear didn't always lead to good choices. It often led to sneaking, resentment, and bending the truth. (Especially since I knew he wasn't willing to talk with or listen to me).

If all of my discipline had been fear based, then I really wonder if I would have developed the kind of moral reasoning that I did. I can see kids who are afraid of their parents really acting out once they move out of the house because their reason for behaving well is gone.

[Koala]

As I stated there is no way to state a specific age as it would be different for every child. As far as how old...don't know what that would be for every kid in the universe. Personally, I never had to spank my kids past the age of 9 or 10. By then they seemed to understand what was expected of them and while they still did dumb things that kids do, there was never any more blatant disobedience or in your face rebellion that I felt warranted a spanking. So for our family, 9 or 10 was when they no longer needed spankings. In other families it would probably be different.

When did you start hitting your kids?

[debrand]

In the second scenario, the timing of the response made it wrong. Whether after repeated warnings they were spanked or were forced to be held on her lap, the child only learned how short their parent's fuse was not that they need to behave. The first parent responded as soon as the child misbehaved. that was the correct response. Whether you spank or use some other method of discipline you need to be consistent and respond immediately not in anger when you can't stand their misbehavior any longer.

I agree with you that consistency is the key. However, if spanking isn't necessary to produce children that listen to their parents, why spank at all? Spankers use the car in the road scenario to defend their position, yet, spanking a child doesn't mean that the child will behave automatically.

[Third]

I found a link to a youtube video of the show. According to wiki this was filmed in 2008.

The girl in the clip had to agree to the paddling over Saturday detention. They do not show the paddling but a boy describes it and you hear it.

[formergothardite]

As I stated there is no way to state a specific age as it would be different for every child. As far as how old...don't know what that would be for every kid in the universe. Personally, I never had to spank my kids past the age of 9 or 10. By then they seemed to understand what was expected of them and while they still did dumb things that kids do, there was never any more blatant disobedience or in your face rebellion that I felt warranted a spanking. So for our family, 9 or 10 was when they no longer needed spankings. In other families it would probably be different.

What was the youngest age that you thought it was okay to hit your children? At what age does it become wrong for an adult to hit their child and what makes that wrong?

[Koala]

I've got a question for SHEWHOHITS:

We know that kids learn by watching their parents. How did you explain to them that it's okay for a mom or dad (big people) to hit them (little people), but it's not okay for little people to hit big people or other little people.

The "spankers" that I know all have kids who hit. It's funny though...when the kids do it all of a sudden the parents start calling it hitting.

[She Who Laughs]

So (in your mind) is it okay to hit a child with a paddle?

If it's legal, if the schools practice it, if the parents give consent for their child to be paddled, then yes, it is ok.

[She Who Laughs]

I've got a question for SHEWHOHITS:

We know that kids learn by watching their parents. How did you explain to them that it's okay for a mom or dad (big people) to hit them (little people), but it's not okay for little people to hit big people or other little people.

The "spankers" that I know all have kids who hit. It's funny though...when the kids do it all of a sudden the parents start calling it hitting.

I've had the opposite experience. We never hit anyone as kids, my kids were never hitters in their childhood and so far the same holds true for the grandkids. Hmmm, I guess the results aren't the same for every kid out there. Imagine that.

[Koala]

If it's legal, if the schools practice it, if the parents give consent for their child to be paddled, then yes, it is ok.

Okay so if something is legal and people agree to it, it's okay?

So since it was legal (hitting your wife used to be legal), and the husbands consented, it was okay for them to hit their wives right?

Now I ask you again, do YOU believe it is okay to take a wooden board and hit a child?

[Austin]

If you can't manage to successfully discipline your children without hitting them, then there is something wrong with you. Sure, it takes effort to discipline kids correctly, but that's what it means to be a parent. You do the work of disciplining your children without resorting the easy way of venting your frustration physically.

The simple truth is that spanking makes kids behave worse. Every study done has consistently shown that kids who get spanked are worse behaved than kids who don't get spanked. Plenty of spanked kids turn out fine, but they do so in spite of the spanking and not because of it.

My mom spanked me. I won't spank my kids. Someone has to break the cycle and decide to end it. If my mom went back and did it all over again, she wouldn't spank. It doesn't mean she was some horrible monster for spanking us, only that she is not perfect just like everyone else and did something wrong. And she's secure enough to admit that one aspect of her parenting was wrong without feeling like a complete failure.

But people who have spanked and refuse to evaluate their own actions are bad parents. Yes, I'm a bitch for calling someone a bad parent. But you know what? At least I've never hit a child.

All of this.

Spanking is just a lazy parent's way out. Get off your damn ass or engage your brain and figure out how to effectively communicate with your child.

As far as listening to the teaching of "pastors" and those with "child development backgrounds", James Dobson has a PhD in child psychology. No joke. So yeah, I wouldn't be bragging about that.

And kids grow up and do okay either because of their parents and in spite of their parents, and mostly both. I have apologized for poor parenting moments to my sons at different times, and it is amazing how they will always attempt to minimize my crappiness. Children love their parents unconditionally and will go to great lengths to protect them. So just because your kids told you it was a-okay to hit them doesn't really make it so. They have no basis of comparison, anyway. Hopefully, they will get a clue and break the cycle.

[Koala]

I've had the opposite experience. We never hit anyone as kids, my kids were never hitters in their childhood and so far the same holds true for the grandkids. Hmmm, I guess the results aren't the same for every kid out there. Imagine that.

So you told them that it was okay for you to hit them, but not for them to hit others? Hmm...interesting. I'm surprised they were able to rationalize that.

[geniebelle6901]

It is legal in some states for parents to paddle kids. About the only thing her sister can do is change schools.

Actually, In the the public school system my nieces & nephew attend (not sure if it's a state law or just a school district thing), parents are given the choice (in writing) whether or not to have corporal punishment administered when their kid acts up. My sis & BIL signed papers stating no corporal punishment for their kids. They even have a copy of that document. What's worse is that my nephew is autistic and in special ed. Anybody who works with special needs children know that they are prone to act out at times. The whole thing started when my nephew got angry that another kid in his class was teasing him. My nephew didn't hit the kid, he just had acted out & had a tantrum. At least that's what my sis told me. I hope that teacher never gets another teaching job again.

ETA: We're hoping our homeschooling cousin will be able to homeschool him. I guess it depends on what AL law says.