To The Bate Defenders

[debrand]

On the thread about the Bateses, we've had some people defend the family. Their posts annoyed me so badly that I felt that I needed a thread to respond to just them.

 

First, I am sure that the Bateses are nice in person. Many fundies have been taught to keep sweet and not express their true feelings or even have true feelings. Even if they are the nicest people on the face of the earth it doesn't mean that they aren't involved in a harmful cult.

 

 

Quote

For an ATI family, I think the Bateses are better than most.

 

 

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Agreed. I am very glad Erin has the opportunity to attend an actual school. Okay, so it's not accredited. Okay, so she has to have a chaperon. When I hear those complaints I feel the same as when my vegan friend gives me the side-eye for putting goat cheese crumbles on my salad - can't you just be happy I'm eating the freaking salad to begin with?

 

.

 

What? You are comparing not putting goat cheese on your salad to a family who has chosen to have so many children that they have to depend on one of the boys for support. It has been brought up that in other countries family members offer one another financial support. However, the Bateses do not live in a country where they are doomed to poverty. The Bateses made a decision to be poor. Both parents have degrees. If they really loved their children, they would have stopped having kids and both parents would have worked rather then continually take money from their son. They chose this life for their kids. They chose to limit their children's ability to decide their own future. That is evil. And Kelly, for all her sweetness, continues to endanger her own life for an ideal that you have to turn mental cartwheels to find in the bible. That isn't love.

 

Putting cheese on your salad is no where near as evil as indoctrinating your daughters into believing that they can't choose their own future and must be obedient to their husbands.

 

 

Me

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I'm not being argumentative, but why would anyone want to take classes that didn't count toward anything.

Another poster

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Maybe for the sake of...learning? Lots of people take classes here and there in things that interest them, without pursuing degrees. Just because they aren't being applied toward an Associates or a Bachelor's doesn't make them any less useful

.

 

Learning for the sake of learning is great. I love history. However, my love of history won't help me get a job if my husband dies. Nor will giving private lessons help support Erin and her future children if she ends up married to an abusive jerk.

 

Erin is not allowed to take accredited college classes for several reasons. First, she might learn that people different then her family( the boy with green hair) can be sweet, kind people who are every bit as moral as her family. Second, she might, god forbid, be exposed to ideas that cause her to rethink her parents' values. Third, they don't really want her to become independent. They just want the illusion of independence.If she was independent, she would have the freedom to decide her own future. Her family can't allow that.

 

She is also chaperoned. What do they think is going to happen during her lessons? Do they really believe that their daughter will either drive the teacher or classmates so insane with desire that they...I don't know what. What do they think will happen without a chaperon? Do they really distrust their daughters so much?

 

Oh, and to the posters I've quoted, I'm sure that I will agree with you on other issues but defending the Bates just drives me a bit batty. They are in a cult and are hurting their families.

[debrand]

Whoops. The defense of the Bateses annoyed me so badly that I had to say it twice. :lol:

[geniebelle6901]

The Bateses are no better than the Duggars. Both disgust me! Even though it appears the younger Bates brats are more behaved than the Duggars and Kelly seems more involved that Michelle in the homeschooling and child care department, they are both equally bad. I find their lifestyle dangerous, and pray at some point all of the kids of both families openly rebel & say "Fuck you mom & dad. We hate this lifestyle you've put us in & we're leaving". I also hope they have people to help support them while they leave fundie lifestyle. Oh well, it probably won't go down that way, but I do hope they are able to leave at some point. I definitely don't want to see a courtship for any of them because I believe as grown ass men and women they should pick and choose who they want to date (yes date, not court) and eventually marry not Daddy.

[lilwriter85]

I agree with geniebelle on the behavior of the younger Bates kids and Kelly have more involvement in homeschooling. I do find Kelly a bit more likable than Michelle. The Bateses are worse than the Duggars in some ways. The Duggars at least have health insurance and a few other resources.

[desertvixen]

Even though it appears the younger Bates brats are more behaved than the Duggars and Kelly seems more involved that Michelle in the homeschooling and child care department, they are both equally bad.

But it's not the job of PARENTS to pitch in - raising the children is their responsibility. Parts of this responsibility can be entrusted to other parties - daycare, public/private schools, etc - but at the end of the day, it is our job as parents to raise our children. That's one reason why I, personally, don't plan to have a lot of children, because I want to be able to devote time to them - and to myself. I want to be able to afford it and not have to take money from my eldest child, not need to get charity health care to maintain pregnancies when I can't afford to feed my kids on my own.

The Duggars may have more resources than the Bates family has, but they've spent longer exploiting their family for those resources.

[Kitty]

The Duggars outrage me, but the Bates rub the wrong way for reasons I can't quite explain. I don't have this same reaction to the Duggars or other fundie families as I do the Bates. I can agree that Kelly is much more involved than Michelle, and education is more important in the Bates household, but still... can't stand the Bates.

I think it's because of that picture of Nathan Bedford Forrest in the "patriotic" room. Hint: it's not patriotic if it's praising a now-defunct nation that was hostile to the one you live in. Especially if some residents of that nation founded the KKK.

[donks]

My thought on the younger Bates' kids is they're better behaved because they weren't brought up in the public eye as the younger Duggars were. I'm sure the Bates kids were VERY vigorously 'trained' by their mom, dad, and older siblings.

IMO the Bates are scum. Breeding breeding breeding kids they have to leech money off their kid to feed. Owning many expensive-to-keep pets, and doing a piss-poor job of caring for them. Relying on the Eroom (and probably claiming indigence on the bill or whatever it's called, I'm unfamiliar with the practice of shirking on my responsibilities) and passing THAT expense on to the tax payers of Tennessee.

They are as smug as the Duggars, and just as ignorant.

[debrand]

I'm glad that other people find the Bateses as troubling as I do.

Some of you brought up good points.I'd forgotten about the Bateses horses or that they had a picture of the founder fo the KKK on one of their walls.

To the posters that I quoted in my original post. I understand that on the surface, the family seems so sweet and naive. However, they follow a harmful cult and it does the family no favors to not point out the problems with their beliefs.

[TinyDancer87]

Learning for the sake of learning is great. I love history. However, my love of history won't help me get a job if my husband dies. Nor will giving private lessons help support Erin and her future children if she ends up married to an abusive jerk.

If you're learning to get a job if your husband dies, then you're not learning for the sake of learning. I take language classes at the university here in town, strictly for the sake of expanding my knowledge. There will be no pay advancement in my job, there's no incentive at all. I just like to learn languages.

Even if Erin was taking classes for the sake of learning, these classes will help her in her carreer! Taking theory classes from anywhere- online, a community college, an ivy league, or an unaccredited institution- will still encourage learning in the field.

By no means am I a fan of the Bates' lifestyle. But I think it's unfair to criticize a young lady who is trying to better herself. She could be just sitting at home, but she's not. With the limited resources that she's given, I think she's doing better than most girls of that subculture.

Oh also, having a job or not having a job (or going to school for that matter) has no correlation with abusive husbands.

[donks]

Oh yeah, they are also willingly keeping their kids unprepared for the real world. They deny them an actual education and even interaction with people who aren't related to them or their closed world of cult members.

There is no telling what they say to their kids about the outside world.

Of course, they'll prattle on and on about how they just LOVE their life... And no wonder they parrot Mom and Dad! They've been told how evil the 'others' are.

I'd love to hear what they say to brainwash the kids........

[geniebelle6901]

I was referring specifically to Kelly and Michelle who have chosen to be SAHMs and homeschoolers. Clearly for working moms or mainstream (non-homechooling) SAHMs there are daycares, pre-schools play dates, public schools, and after school activities. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The Duggars only have more resources because JB was an AR State Congressman and because of TLC. I'm sure the Bateses will have a few more resources as their show or specials take off, although maybe not as much as the Duggars, but I could be wrong.

[formergothardite]

The Bates also put up a picture that showed a former KKK leader hanging in their house like he was someone they looked up to. They are not just a sweet little country family lik Baylee would like people to believe. They are racists who try and hide it since they are now in the spotlight.

Baylee, have you read the Recovering Grace articles about sexual abuse by Gothard? Why don't you ask your friends why they still support a man who treats young teens this way?

[debrand]

If you're learning to get a job if your husband dies, then you're not learning for the sake of learning. I take language classes at the university here in town, strictly for the sake of expanding my knowledge. There will be no pay advancement in my job, there's no incentive at all. I just like to learn languages.

Even if Erin was taking classes for the sake of learning, these classes will help her in her carreer! Taking theory classes from anywhere- online, a community college, an ivy league, or an unaccredited institution- will still encourage learning in the field.

By no means am I a fan of the Bates' lifestyle. But I think it's unfair to criticize a young lady who is trying to better herself. She could be just sitting at home, but she's not. With the limited resources that she's given, I think she's doing better than most girls of that subculture.

Oh also, having a job or not having a job (or going to school for that matter) has no correlation with abusive husbands.

Having a job=or at least job skills- will help a person be able to escape an abusive spouse. I never said that having a job or not having a job had a correlation with abuse.

Who is going to hire Erin for any job beyond a private music teacher to little kids? She probably won't be able to work in most school settings or a job that offers benefits. How would she care for any children that she might have?

How is it unfair to criticize Erin? My criticism is directed more at her parents.

[debrand]

It seems to me that some people want to defend the Bateses because they could be worse. However, Is our criteria now that something is good if it is better then something worse? In my own family, a relative once excused her husband's abuse by telling me that at least he didn't cheat or use a closed fist on her. It is wrong to excuse bad behavior by saying that it isn't as bad as it could be.

So, the Bateses are slightly better then the Duggars. So what? That only shows how insane their entire cult is.

[donks]

Here's a question: how would Erin or any of the girls even know they're being abused? They've been blanket trained. Mullet used to admit to using the Pearls methods, I bet the Bates' do too.

If you're raised being beaten, you see your siblings being beaten and the only people you're allowed to associate with are raised that same way. You are cut off from TV and books. How would you know it's wrong?

[geniebelle6901]

Oh hell no...I despise the Bateses & the Duggars regardless of which family has more resources or appears to be better off financially. And let's face it it really wasn't Erin's decision to turn down the music scholarship at UT. I have no doubt Gil put his foot down so that his daughter could be under his control until he finds her a husband that meets his criteria. I also believe at some point Jill Duggars's desire to be a midwife will be squashed by JB since she will have to attend a real college and get a real nursing degree. Only I think JB's motive is to have her around as a SAHD rather than than find her a husband...for now anyway. We all know how both families feel about higher education despite CollegePlus or whatever else they are doing. It's for show and nothing more.

I know the older Duggar kids are first responders at their local volunteer fired department, do the older Bates kids do the same? I know Zach Bates is on the town council.

[mpheels]

But I think it's unfair to criticize a young lady who is trying to better herself. She could be just sitting at home, but she's not. With the limited resources that she's given, I think she's doing better than most girls of that subculture.

I didn't read any of this as a criticism of Erin for "choosing" an unaccredited college. I applaud her for seizing whatever opportunity she can get her hands on. I read this thread as a criticism of Gil and Kelly for limiting Erin's opportunities by only permitting her to attend an unaccredited college.

As for learning for the sake of learning... I view it as dessert. Yes, if you enjoy a subject, by all means explore it, but it's generally a good idea to have a solid and marketable educational foundation first. In college, I took plenty of courses just for fun (side note - I took an art design class for the sole purpose of making better Halloween costumes), but I waited until I had fulfilled the courses required for my major/minor, and just needed to take electives to have enough on-campus credits for graduation. Now that I have a stable job and can meet my financial obligations on my own with some income to spare, I'm free to study whatever I want (and I do!).

[debrand]

I didn't read any of this as a criticism of Erin for "choosing" an unaccredited college. I applaud her for seizing whatever opportunity she can get her hands on. I read this thread as a criticism of Gil and Kelly for limiting Erin's opportunities by only permitting her to attend an unaccredited college.

As for learning for the sake of learning... I view it as dessert. Yes, if you enjoy a subject, by all means explore it, but it's generally a good idea to have a solid and marketable educational foundation first. In college, I took plenty of courses just for fun (side note - I took an art design class for the sole purpose of making better Halloween costumes), but I waited until I had fulfilled the courses required for my major/minor, and just needed to take electives to have enough on-campus credits for graduation. Now that I have a stable job and can meet my financial obligations on my own with some income to spare, I'm free to study whatever I want (and I do!).

This.

Part of my problem with Erin isn't based on any animosity toward her. She seems to have a lot of potential but that only makes me more angry. Her parents have decided all her choices and what path her life would take.

[Guest Anonymous]

To me, the difference between the Bateses and the Duggars is like the difference between dog shit and cat shit. It's still ordure, either way.

[HOTW]

I doubt Jill will ever get to nursing school however she seems to be under the guidance of q licensed midwife and Arkansas is a state that recognizes laymidwifery so I would jot be surprised if that is the route she goes

[freejoytoo]

I don't understand how anyone can say the Bateses are better than the Duggars. Okay, so they might let their daughter take a few music classes - that doesn't change the fact that they subscribe to an incredibly dangerous philosophy, force their children to live in cramped, unhealthy conditions and basically abuse animals. Don't they also have a member of the KKK on their wall? So what if they seem cute and like country music? They're still disgusting underneath.

[TinyDancer87]

I agree that Gil and Kelly limit the oportunities to their children and adult children. That's why I don't agree with their lifestyle. Therefore, I'm not a defender to the Bates family. I just applaud Erin for making most of her situation. And I only hope that her example encourages the other children to step out of their comfort zone and continue learning after "highschool", or even better- freakin' leave the cult.

[MerryHappy]

Please do not defend these families. Just because they seem better than the Duggars does not make them so.

I would remind you that both families are fronting for and are actively promoting Gothardism, an organization led by a man who apparently delights in sexually harassing girls as young as 13 and 14.

This is a comment recently left on the sexual harassment posts on Recovering Grace, a website devoted to shining the light on the reality of Gothardism.

Emily April 24, 2012Reply

Lizzie, Your well written post has prompted to tell my story.

First off my family is still in ATI, and intend on staying in it. We are not ready to cast away everything, say it's just a cult, and become vocal ex-ATIers. My family and I still love the ministry and believe that it still has many great aspects. We adore going to the conferences, love the WBs and love the seminars. No ministry is perfect, and so for now we are content on staying, and would appreciate others respecting our decision on. But still, I feel compelled to tell my story.

My family joined ATI when I was in fifth grade. I have only one older sibling (sister) who had already left our home when we joined. My dad is a very verbally abusive, harsh, unloving, and bitter man, who has been a trial in my life since before I was born. He allows my mom and I to be a part of ATI and IBLP, but is not active himself. Shortly after we joined my mom and I went to the Total Health Conference up at ITC.

One day I was walking the the hallway alone when Mr. Gothard passed my way. He stopped, asked my name and asked what I wanted to do when I grew up. At the time I wanted to train horses. We said goodbye and that was the only time we spoke until several days later. One night my mom and I got the chance to sit at the same table with him for dinner. We started talking and he said he was struck by my bright countenance and spirit, and asked if I would consider joining the Great Expeditions Team. He said the age limit was 14 and asks how old I was. I was 13. He gave us the info of a HQ girl and said to keep in contact, and in one year when I turned 14 I could join. My mom and I were very excited and said we would consider it.

That year I diagnosed with a very serious debilitating and chronic disease called Crohn's disease. I became very sick, and for the next few years all we concentrated on was getting me well. When I was 15 we were at the ATI conference and Mr. G kept staring at me the whole week and finally asks me for a talk in his office where asked me to come and work at HQ. He didn't remember me until I mentioned that he had made an offer a few years prier. My mom and I discussed it, but decided I was too young, and still not healthy enough to come. Every year for the next few years at the conference he would keep staring at me than finally ask me if I'd ever consider coming to HQ. The craziest thing is he never recognized or remembered who I was!. Finally this past year( 2011) he remembered me.

This time he wouldn't take no for an answer. He knew well my struggles with my dad and with illness and determined that HQ was the answer. I'm telling you, when Mr. G wants something he doesn't let go. My mom, Mr. G, and I went round and round the whole week, explaining we didn't have a peace about sending me up there, but he insisted it was the only way I'd ever get well. Finally he proposed that I only go for 3 -4 weeks, just so I could get some counseling on the issues with my dad. We consented.

We got there and he immediately started making hints that I would be fine and my mom could go ahead and leave. My mom and I did not feel my staying alone up there since we knew just how persuasive he could be. My mom made it very clear that she intended on staying. ( in fact his sister/secretary finally had to convince him by saying, " look, the only way you're going to get Emily, is to have her mom to" Immediately after I came up there Mr. G made it apparent that his only mission was to find a way to convince me to stay.

This is where it gets creepy. At the conferences he always paid a great deal of attention to me. He complemented me, and spent a lot of time with me--all this I relished for I'd been so starved for fatherly affection my whole life. He did make a few comments that bothered me a little, but I tried to ignore them. Only now I see how wrong they were. On the last night of the conference I told him how I never felt that my dad loved me. He then said," don't worry because God loves you and I love you"! He then went on to say that "God had put a special love in his heart for me" *jaw-dropping* Back at HQ things got much worse. He started holding my hand, and gazing into my eyes for long periods of time. Once he placed his shoe on top of mine ( which really confused me--I thought " Uh, doesn't he notice that he's stepping on my foot!!) He would caress my arm or squeeze my hands, and wink at my. Meanwhile he called me an angle, amazing, or say, " you amaze me" or " you belong here". He complemented my hair, my smile and my laugh almost every time we'd talk. All of this stuff really creeped me out. I thought," how can he think that this is appropriate?" but I was silenced by the thought that, " This is BILL GOTHARD. He would never have inappropriate intentions, surely he's just being friendly." I never mentioned any of this to my mom, as I felt I was misunderstanding and making a big deal out of the whole thing. I was very careful, though to try to avoid holding hands, the gazes, and always made sure there was someone else in the room with us.Still, over the next few days he was persistent in convincing me to stay. We confronted him with his original words of this stay being for only "3 - 4 weeks", and finally he admitted that he only said that to get me up there. He said he had no intentions of counseling me without a several year commitment. That was it for us.

After only ten days decided to leave. We said maybe, just maybe in a few years we would consider it, but we had a strong feeling that the Holy Spirit was telling us a definite no for right now. He called our home later in January to ask if I was ready, and again we declined. My mom and I are planning on attending the ATI conference in a month, and have already decided to approach him the first night and tell him that we have decided that HQ is not and will never will be the right place for me. We are praying he takes it as our final answer and does not badger us the whole week! So that's been my experience. I want to thank you, Lizzie, so much for having the courage to come through and write this. I had not seen the reason or had the courage to tell my mom about the situation until today. Thank you,Emily"

This is the man the Duggars and the Bates give their time, money and children to. Shame on them.

[formergothardite]

Yet another issue Baylee won't address about this family she continues to defend.

[gustava]

Please do not defend these families. Just because they seem better than the Duggars does not make them so.

I would remind you that both families are fronting for and are actively promoting Gothardism, an organization led by a man who apparently delights in sexually harassing girls as young as 13 and 14.

This is a comment recently left on the sexual harassment posts on Recovering Grace, a website devoted to shining the light on the reality of Gothardism.

Emily April 24, 2012Reply

Lizzie, Your well written post has prompted to tell my story.

First off my family is still in ATI, and intend on staying in it. We are not ready to cast away everything, say it's just a cult, and become vocal ex-ATIers. My family and I still love the ministry and believe that it still has many great aspects. We adore going to the conferences, love the WBs and love the seminars. No ministry is perfect, and so for now we are content on staying, and would appreciate others respecting our decision on. But still, I feel compelled to tell my story.

My family joined ATI when I was in fifth grade. I have only one older sibling (sister) who had already left our home when we joined. My dad is a very verbally abusive, harsh, unloving, and bitter man, who has been a trial in my life since before I was born. He allows my mom and I to be a part of ATI and IBLP, but is not active himself. Shortly after we joined my mom and I went to the Total Health Conference up at ITC.

One day I was walking the the hallway alone when Mr. Gothard passed my way. He stopped, asked my name and asked what I wanted to do when I grew up. At the time I wanted to train horses. We said goodbye and that was the only time we spoke until several days later. One night my mom and I got the chance to sit at the same table with him for dinner. We started talking and he said he was struck by my bright countenance and spirit, and asked if I would consider joining the Great Expeditions Team. He said the age limit was 14 and asks how old I was. I was 13. He gave us the info of a HQ girl and said to keep in contact, and in one year when I turned 14 I could join. My mom and I were very excited and said we would consider it.

That year I diagnosed with a very serious debilitating and chronic disease called Crohn's disease. I became very sick, and for the next few years all we concentrated on was getting me well. When I was 15 we were at the ATI conference and Mr. G kept staring at me the whole week and finally asks me for a talk in his office where asked me to come and work at HQ. He didn't remember me until I mentioned that he had made an offer a few years prier. My mom and I discussed it, but decided I was too young, and still not healthy enough to come. Every year for the next few years at the conference he would keep staring at me than finally ask me if I'd ever consider coming to HQ. The craziest thing is he never recognized or remembered who I was!. Finally this past year( 2011) he remembered me.

This time he wouldn't take no for an answer. He knew well my struggles with my dad and with illness and determined that HQ was the answer. I'm telling you, when Mr. G wants something he doesn't let go. My mom, Mr. G, and I went round and round the whole week, explaining we didn't have a peace about sending me up there, but he insisted it was the only way I'd ever get well. Finally he proposed that I only go for 3 -4 weeks, just so I could get some counseling on the issues with my dad. We consented.

We got there and he immediately started making hints that I would be fine and my mom could go ahead and leave. My mom and I did not feel my staying alone up there since we knew just how persuasive he could be. My mom made it very clear that she intended on staying. ( in fact his sister/secretary finally had to convince him by saying, " look, the only way you're going to get Emily, is to have her mom to" Immediately after I came up there Mr. G made it apparent that his only mission was to find a way to convince me to stay.

This is where it gets creepy. At the conferences he always paid a great deal of attention to me. He complemented me, and spent a lot of time with me--all this I relished for I'd been so starved for fatherly affection my whole life. He did make a few comments that bothered me a little, but I tried to ignore them. Only now I see how wrong they were. On the last night of the conference I told him how I never felt that my dad loved me. He then said," don't worry because God loves you and I love you"! He then went on to say that "God had put a special love in his heart for me" *jaw-dropping* Back at HQ things got much worse. He started holding my hand, and gazing into my eyes for long periods of time. Once he placed his shoe on top of mine ( which really confused me--I thought " Uh, doesn't he notice that he's stepping on my foot!!) He would caress my arm or squeeze my hands, and wink at my. Meanwhile he called me an angle, amazing, or say, " you amaze me" or " you belong here". He complemented my hair, my smile and my laugh almost every time we'd talk. All of this stuff really creeped me out. I thought," how can he think that this is appropriate?" but I was silenced by the thought that, " This is BILL GOTHARD. He would never have inappropriate intentions, surely he's just being friendly." I never mentioned any of this to my mom, as I felt I was misunderstanding and making a big deal out of the whole thing. I was very careful, though to try to avoid holding hands, the gazes, and always made sure there was someone else in the room with us.Still, over the next few days he was persistent in convincing me to stay. We confronted him with his original words of this stay being for only "3 - 4 weeks", and finally he admitted that he only said that to get me up there. He said he had no intentions of counseling me without a several year commitment. That was it for us.

After only ten days decided to leave. We said maybe, just maybe in a few years we would consider it, but we had a strong feeling that the Holy Spirit was telling us a definite no for right now. He called our home later in January to ask if I was ready, and again we declined. My mom and I are planning on attending the ATI conference in a month, and have already decided to approach him the first night and tell him that we have decided that HQ is not and will never will be the right place for me. We are praying he takes it as our final answer and does not badger us the whole week! So that's been my experience. I want to thank you, Lizzie, so much for having the courage to come through and write this. I had not seen the reason or had the courage to tell my mom about the situation until today. Thank you,Emily"

This is the man the Duggars and the Bates give their time, money and children to. Shame on them.

So she's still part of a spiritual movement run by a pervert. I have no words.