Is Proselytizing Wrong on Principle? Discuss.

[CanadianHippie]

Actually, I am less fine with that because there is such a clear imbalance of power between a Fourth World person and a 'modern', Western missionary. That power imbalance is bound to work in favor of said missionary, so I find that hugely morally problematic. Proselytizing among people culturally similar to yourself, in a way, levels the philosophical playing field more.

Same here. For the same reasons, plus those who go out to the rain forest to spread the word of God usually work to spread the word of "you heathens are horrible, terrible, no good, very bad people and you need to CHANGE and becomes just like WHITE, CONSERVATIVE, CHRISTIAN, AMERICAN'S right this INSTANT!" as well.

[Guest Anonymous]

This is interesting. When I started a thread on Alabama's proposed legislation to ban protesting at funerals, a lot of you said such legislation would be unconstitutional. Now some of you are saying street preachers are wrong. Something's not quiet right here. :think:

[Soldier of the One]

Yeah well, then there's the whole cultural imperialism can-o'-worms that's opened...

As for the Muslim proselytizers I saw... I didn't engage them (I didn't have time) so nothing happened. They were standing in the shopping street, with a table with books, holding up tracts. Clipped beards, suits, ties, very clean-cut but traditional-looking. I am sure they were intense!

Proselytizing kids is a big no-no. There were numerous attempts to proselytize me as a kid. All were unsuccessful.

There's one group that my usually tolerant/bemused attitude doesn't apply to: Jews for Jesus.

[browngrl]

In downtown Toronto, near the Eaton Centre - there is always at least one man handing out Korans. They are pretty polite so it is easy for me to ignore them. So there is one example of a Muslim street preaching.

I generally am irritated by people preaching in the street - but as long as they are not too loud or obstructive and as long as they behave within the law I deal with them by ignoring them. I will NOT tolerate someone coming on to my property to preach.

[Guest Anonymous]

This is interesting. When I started a thread on Alabama's proposed legislation to ban protesting at funerals, a lot of you said such legislation would be unconstitutional. Now some of you are saying street preachers are wrong. Something's not quiet right here. :think:

"I think that's wrong" does not equal "I think that should be illegal" or "that's unconstitutional."

[Soldier of the One]

There's plenty of stuff I don't like/think is wrong/don't approve of.

And most of that stuff is my problem entirely.

[Soldier of the One]

Just to muddy the waters:

Can any of you imagine scenarios where 'proselytizing' (secular or religious) could actually be a good and/or a necessary thing?

[Sola]

This is interesting. When I started a thread on Alabama's proposed legislation to ban protesting at funerals, a lot of you said such legislation would be unconstitutional. Now some of you are saying street preachers are wrong. Something's not quiet right here. :think:

People can find parts of the constitution wrong but that wont make that part of the constitution go away Genie.

Street preachers may have the right to free speech in the US under the constitution but people still have the right be annoyed by them.

[CanadianHippie]

Just to muddy the waters:

Can any of you imagine scenarios where 'proselytizing' (secular or religious) could actually be a good and/or a necessary thing?

It can be a good thing when someone comes up to you and says "I've been hearing a lot about this religion and I'm really curious about learning more" or something to that effect and you happen to be of the religion and say "well let me tell you about the good word of the Lord!"

It's good because they are curious and you are providing the information they are looking for.

[Guest Anonymous]

Just to muddy the waters:

Can any of you imagine scenarios where 'proselytizing' (secular or religious) could actually be a good and/or a necessary thing?

Safer sex campaigns? Distribution of literature about where to get free or low cost birth control, STD testing and treatment, and people to talk to about it if passersby so choose. Maybe some stuff in there about being sure to obtain enthusiastic consent from sex partners, too.

**ETA: I'm not sure this is an example of proselytizing. I just tried to think of something that might get me to stand on a lawn and talk to people/hand out literature and this is what I came up with.

***Edited again to remove a word that shouldn't have been there, and for fuck you.

[QAF_Rocks]

Just to muddy the waters:

Can any of you imagine scenarios where 'proselytizing' (secular or religious) could actually be a good and/or a necessary thing?

Ayaan Hirsi Ali thinks that Christians should try to convert Muslims, because she thinks that Christianity is ultimately less harmful than Islam. I'm not sure whether I would agree with her. I don't think either religion is a good thing, but I think it's possible that one could be slightly less harmful than the other, particularly in deeply patriarchal cultures. If you're talking about a society where women have to cover themselves from head to toe or risk having battery acid thrown in their faces, then maybe even the more conservative forms of Christianity would be an improvement.

[celestial]

Just to muddy the waters:

Can any of you imagine scenarios where 'proselytizing' (secular or religious) could actually be a good and/or a necessary thing?

What exactly would "secular proselytizing" entail? Do you mean advocating for something? Or "proselytizing" for atheism?

[Beeks]

I don't know if it's wrong on principle - I think it depends on how a person goes about it. It also depends on the person being talked to (at?). For me personally, I don't find a "hey Jesus loves you!" offensive at all. I think of it as "have a nice day!" If somebody wants to tell me I'm loved, I'm not going to get offended over it. Now what I hate is the ones who come asking a bunch of questions and implying that I can't possibly be content with my life and beliefs the way they are. That I find to be always rude, and sometimes offensive.

[Soldier of the One]

What exactly would "secular proselytizing" entail? Do you mean advocating for something? Or "proselytizing" for atheism?

Could be either. There have been some embryonic attempts to proselytize for atheism and I'm fine with that.

But it could also be as Lissar said, for a social cause, like a safe® sex campaign. Or promoting gay rights. I'm fine with that too :)

[celestial]

Public schools have an obligation to provide a neutral space. Proselytizers are definitely not neutral.

We used to have these hardcore Christians that stood right outside the gate of my (public) high school. There was only one exit, so there was no avoiding them unless you just waited a long time for them to leave. They would shove hate-filled tracts in your face and had giant posters covered with pictures of aborted fetuses. Because they weren't technically on school grounds, the school claimed there was nothing they could do about the situation. They didn't even send out an administrator to mitigate or anything like that. They just let the kids fend for themselves. This happened several times a year, every year. I think proselytizing should be banned within say half a mile of a school, in order to protect kids from such freaks.

[Soldier of the One]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali thinks that Christians should try to convert Muslims, because she thinks that Christianity is ultimately less harmful than Islam. I'm not sure whether I would agree with her. I don't think either religion is a good thing, but I think it's possible that one could be slightly less harmful than the other, particularly in deeply patriarchal cultures. If you're talking about a society where women have to cover themselves from head to toe or risk having battery acid thrown in their faces, then maybe even the more conservative forms of Christianity would be an improvement.

I'm not sure I'd hold that and find it bizarre that an atheist thinker like Ayaan Hirsi Ali would be of that opinion. The logic of 'the enemies of my enemies are my friends' is not only flawed but also dangerous. The last thing the world needs is the replacement of one fundamentalist belief-system by another. (Not saying that either *all* of Christianity or *all* of Islam are fundie, God forbid).

If I'd have to make a choice... I dunno. In certain respects, fundie Muslim women have more rights. Like conjugal rights and property rights. I don't think it's a sum zero game.

[Soldier of the One]

We used to have these hardcore Christians that stood right outside the gate of my (public) high school. There was only one exit, so there was no avoiding them unless you just waited a long time for them to leave. They would shove hate-filled tracts in your face and had giant posters covered with pictures of aborted fetuses. Because they weren't technically on school grounds, the school claimed there was nothing they could do about the situation. They didn't even send out an administrator to mitigate or anything like that. They just let the kids fend for themselves. This happened several times a year, every year. I think proselytizing should be banned within say half a mile of a school, in order to protect kids from such freaks.

I think that's fair. And images of aborted fetuses near a school? What are they thinking?

Believe it or not, I think there can be an 'etiquette' of proselytizing. A sort of 'Miss Manners' for door knockers. Brandishing shocking and triggering imagery in the public domain seems like a faux pas to me.

[browngrl]

Just to muddy the waters:

Can any of you imagine scenarios where 'proselytizing' (secular or religious) could actually be a good and/or a necessary thing?

religious proselytizing: No, I can't think of one situation where this would be good and/or necessary. Somebody on another thread gave me this quote and I think it pretty much sums up how I feel about religious proselytizing: Religion is like a penis.It is fine to have one. It is fine to be proud of it.But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around and don't try and shove it down my children's (or my) throat.

secular proselytizing: I am not sure what you mean by this. Can you give me an example?

[ShesCrafty]

I guess when I think of proselytizing, I think of religion while I would consider promotion of safe sex, etc. to be more advocacy. However, I might just be arguing semantics. In any case, I'm a big believer in free speech, so it would take a lot for me to get behind any attempt to place a limit on either one.

[Soldier of the One]

religious proselytizing: No, I can't think of one situation where this would be good and/or necessary. Somebody on another thread gave me this quote and I think it pretty much sums up how I feel about religious proselytizing: Religion is like a penis.It is fine to have one. It is fine to be proud of it.But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around and don't try and shove it down my children's (or my) throat.

secular proselytizing: I am not sure what you mean by this. Can you give me an example?

Lissar named an example of secular proselytizing: safe® sex campaigns. I added such other social causes to that such as Gay rights (think of pride parades) or political causes. There are even some atheist proselytizers. Hope that helps.

[Soldier of the One]

I guess when I think of proselytizing, I think of religion while I would consider promotion of safe sex, etc. to be more advocacy. However, I might just be arguing semantics. In any case, I'm a big believer in free speech, so it would take a lot for me to get behind any attempt to place a limit on either one.

I get what you mean, ShesCrafty, but that's why I stated in the original post that I wanted to use a broad definition. In a way, yes, it's semantics, but in another way, it's about a deeper discussion about free speech and self-promotion/advocacy in the marketplace of ideas. I am all for Pride Parades (to name an example), which aren't 'proselytizing' in the standard (religious) sense, yet people have heated opinions about them too. Just an example, I suppose.

[celestial]

Could be either. There have been some embryonic attempts to proselytize for atheism and I'm fine with that.

But it could also be as Lissar said, for a social cause, like a safe® sex campaign. Or promoting gay rights. I'm fine with that too :)

Well then, by that definition, yes, I can think of many cases in which "secular proselytizing" would be a good thing. Pushing for safer sex, equal rights for all, etc. As for religious proselytizing, it's not my cup of tea but religion seems to bring great peace to many people in times of difficulty, so as long as it's not the hate-filled kind of proselytizing, I could see how it could possibly be good for someone at some point in their lives. I'm not of the mind that all religious proselytizing= 100% bad. For me it's not useful, but who am I to say what others may find beneficial? To each their own.

[ladypuglover]

We used to have these hardcore Christians that stood right outside the gate of my (public) high school. There was only one exit, so there was no avoiding them unless you just waited a long time for them to leave. They would shove hate-filled tracts in your face and had giant posters covered with pictures of aborted fetuses. Because they weren't technically on school grounds, the school claimed there was nothing they could do about the situation. They didn't even send out an administrator to mitigate or anything like that. They just let the kids fend for themselves. This happened several times a year, every year. I think proselytizing should be banned within say half a mile of a school, in order to protect kids from such freaks.

Our high school has a church right next door but I have never seen any proselytizing from the church. I know as I used to go there. The high schoolers are also respectful to the church as the church will allow up to the first 50 high schoolers park there and then they have to turn them away as that is all the parking they can spare. The kids really enjoy being able to park so close and not have to buy the 300 dollar parking permit one has to on school grounds.

Anyway, back on tract, there was one group of people who would surround all the many different exits from the school grounds and pass out their version of the bible. My middle son brought one home and it was nothing like I had read before and have since forgot what it was. Anyway, the kids would gladly accept the bibles and then sell them for a small amount to the kids who would use them for smoking use. The school quickly put that to an end and since the school is surrounded by either city or bussinesses they had the support to run the bible pushers off.

And to avoid making another post, I have seen athiests "preaching" their beliefs. One can find them one the corner of churches on sunday right when the services end. I think these people are more spoiling for fights than trying to get anyone to believe what they believe. Most Athiest really don't desire to scream on top of their lungs on a sunday morning. Crazy is as crazy does and that goes for people of all faith or non beliefs.

[Soldier of the One]

Yeah. I wonder whether there's a sensitive way to religiously proselytize.

I've once been to a Buddhist missionary center that was clearly built to gain new adherents. They offered free meditation classes and everyone was welcome to visit/hang out in the Stupah. They had a little bookshop with Buddhist material for sale. They were funded by a Buddhist missionary organization to bring Buddhism to the West. They weren't obnoxious about it though; just 'sharing' their religion/philosophy.

That's the sort of example that comes to mind, I guess.

[emmiedahl]

This is interesting. When I started a thread on Alabama's proposed legislation to ban protesting at funerals, a lot of you said such legislation would be unconstitutional. Now some of you are saying street preachers are wrong. Something's not quiet right here. :think:

No one has said that you don't have a constitutional right to proselytize in the US. Merely that it is wrong. Picketing funerals is also wrong, I did not see anyone actually approving of the WBC.

To me, proselytizing feels like a giant "You're doing it wrong!" Seriously, who in the United States has not heard of Jesus? If I want more info, I will ask for it in one of the thousands of places it is available.