Is Proselytizing Wrong on Principle? Discuss.

[JesusFightClub]

This is a thought that occurred to me when I was walking down the street the other day and saw some proselytizers in action.

Given that - at least theoretically - we are all free to operate in the marketplace of ideas, is 'proselytizing' wrong on principle? What do you think?

Discuss :) (And yes, I am keeping the terms as broad as possible).

I don't think so. But then I've sold papers, done street stalls and petitions, marched on demos and...ah, you can fill in the blanks :D

[LilMissMetaphor]

Yes, I'd rather have a free condom too. You can't use the Bible to enjoy sex.

I realize this, I was just comparing their "staying power" so to speak. :)

[She Who Laughs]

I think that proselytizing only really applies to religious beliefs, right? Social issues would probably fall under advocacy. Advocacy is more help, less "you're doing it wrong." I don't mind being handed condoms, and I love me some gay parades. But someone screaming in my face that I am going to hell or making the homeless sit through a sermon to get a hot meal, it just feels wrong to me.

According to Webster's definition it also applies to trying to convert people to something other than faith. So trying to convert conservatives to be liberals or Republicans to be Democrats, are as much proselytizing as trying to convert someone to your faith.

[kb2]

Proselytizing isn't wrong. Most methods of proselytizing are absolutely wrong, though.

This.

If you truly believed that everyone who was not in your religion was going to hell, you would have a moral obligation to proselytize. But everyone has a choice of what to believe, and when people proselytize in a way that tries to take away that choice (through coercion) it becomes immoral.

Like, giving charity but requiring the recipients to believe a certain way. Or lying for Jesus. Or any manipulation of children.

I think there's a difference between wanting the people around you to not go the hell and putting notches on your belt for every person you "save."

Some of the more offensive street preaching by cultish groups probably falls under a different category entirely. I think WBC protests are a bonding exercise within the family, not a real effort to win souls. The adults are mean to outsiders, who are mean back, and the children see outsiders being mean to their parents/older relatives and become more entrenched in the cult.

[Soldier of the One]

As someone who has never read the Bible, I don't feel qualified to debate on whether or not it would be entertaining. As some who has used a free condom, I can definitely give it

Free condoms. A desert island. Some hotties. The Song of Songs.

A good time will be had by all :dance:

[She Who Laughs]

well it is wrong if you follow the bible. besides being ineffective. I think it is mostly trying to earn god brownie points. so it is a vain act too.

Matthew 6:1-34

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ...

This verse isn't about proselytizing at all. It's about doing good deeds for the sole purpose of being recognized for doing such good things. Those who do good works to be recognized for it here on earth have received the only reward they will ever receive - they won't be rewarded in heaven. The only way it would relate to proselytizing would be for those people who witness for the sole purpose of people seeing them be such great witnesses rather than because they feel they must be obedient to God by spreading the Gospel.

[doggie]

This verse isn't about proselytizing at all. It's about doing good deeds for the sole purpose of being recognized for doing such good things. Those who do good works to be recognized for it here on earth have received the only reward they will ever receive - they won't be rewarded in heaven. The only way it would relate to proselytizing would be for those people who witness for the sole purpose of people seeing them be such great witnesses rather than because they feel they must be obedient to God by spreading the Gospel.

I think it covers both. the last line covers it. Most of these street preachers are doing it because it glorifies them (god) Mostly the bible says be a good christian to show people about Christianity. Not stand on a corner and yell at people.

[ladypuglover]

Where is this? Not doubting your claim, but I have never seen or heard of a group of atheists standing around on street corners at even one church, let alone multiple churches, after services end. I suppose it could happen, though, and I would consider it just as rude as the opposite situation.

Not groups but individuals that will make the effort. That is why I think the ones who stand on the corner screaming whatever they are "selling" are mentally disturbed. Christian or Athiest, I don't think these folks are working with a full set of legos.

As for where, here in Colorado. I've seen it in Denver, Colorado Springs, Pueblo and Canon City.

[She Who Laughs]

I think it covers both. the last line covers it. Most of these street preachers are doing it because it glorifies them (god) Mostly the bible says be a good christian to show people about Christianity. Not stand on a corner and yell at people.

Well, Jesus himself did a lot of street-corner preaching. It's more about motives and nobody but the person and God can truly know what a person's motives are.

[2xx1xy1JD]

How do you define "wrong"?

By that person's moral code, they are doing what they think it right and possibly required. By my personal and religious code, it's something to avoid.

I recognize the free speech rights that people have to stand up on a street corner and preach about Jesus or Communism or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That said, I won't be anything whatsoever that would possibly encourage it. If someone's going door-to-door, I probably won't open the door in the first place, and if I did, I'd slam it pretty fast.

I'm also really not crazy about foreign missionary work. I don't like the idea of destroying indigenous religion and culture. I also think that missionaries did a whole lot of harm to Native communities here.

[She Who Laughs]

How do you define "wrong"?

By that person's moral code, they are doing what they think it right and possibly required. By my personal and religious code, it's something to avoid.

I recognize the free speech rights that people have to stand up on a street corner and preach about Jesus or Communism or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That said, I won't be anything whatsoever that would possibly encourage it. If someone's going door-to-door, I probably won't open the door in the first place, and if I did, I'd slam it pretty fast.

I'm also really not crazy about foreign missionary work. I don't like the idea of destroying indigenous religion and culture. I also think that missionaries did a whole lot of harm to Native communities here.

Just going into a foreign culture and doing humanitarian work can destroy an indigenous culture, even if no mention of religion is ever made. So in that line of thinking, no one should ever go to a foreign culture for any reason. Just showing up has an impact on the culture.

[QAF_Rocks]

With regard to children I think all of us proselytise all the time. We encourage them to follow our soccer team (in my case that's Arsenal), the politics we favour, the music we like, the culture we value etc. etc. Parents with religious views are going to teach their children their faith because it matters to them. We run a club for children and many kids attend whose parents do not attend the church. They can only attend with their parent's approval and full knowledge of what the club entails.

I still think it's wrong, but at least your church is honest about what the club entails. There are a lot of groups that target children without their parents' knowledge or consent. I don't care if people indoctrinate their own children, but I think it's really awful to go after other people's kids. There are groups like the Good News Clubs that specifically target children in public elementary schools.

[QAF_Rocks]

Just going into a foreign culture and doing humanitarian work can destroy an indigenous culture, even if no mention of religion is ever made. So in that line of thinking, no one should ever go to a foreign culture for any reason. Just showing up has an impact on the culture.

But that's different than going in there for the express purpose of destroying the indigenous culture. The goal of missionaries is to wipe out and replace the the local religion.

[QAF_Rocks]

Not groups but individuals that will make the effort. That is why I think the ones who stand on the corner screaming whatever they are "selling" are mentally disturbed. Christian or Athiest, I don't think these folks are working with a full set of legos.

As for where, here in Colorado. I've seen it in Denver, Colorado Springs, Pueblo and Canon City.

So there are atheists standing on street corners in four different cities harassing churchgoers after services end? I've never been to Colorado, but that strikes me as more than a little bizarre. Have these people been written about in the newspapers? Or depicted on the news? I'd be interested in knowing more about them. I've never heard of anything like that happening, and as far as I'm aware, it hasn't been mentioned in the atheist blogosphere.

[freejoytoo]

Don't know about wrong but it's fucking annoying.

[ladypuglover]

So there are atheists standing on street corners in four different cities harassing churchgoers after services end? I've never been to Colorado, but that strikes me as more than a little bizarre. Have these people been written about in the newspapers? Or depicted on the news? I'd be interested in knowing more about them. I've never heard of anything like that happening, and as far as I'm aware, it hasn't been mentioned in the atheist blogosphere.

I'm not sure if they are doing every Sunday but I'm saying I have seen it. And are you saying that it would imposible for 4 different towns to have mentally ill people? Hell growing up in Canon City I would be followed home at least 2 times a month by a very mentally person who would scream the robins were going to kill me because I had blond hair. They needed my hair to build nests and would kill me to do it. Mentally ill people are everywhere and yes, some scream about God or the lack of one. I really doubt national atheist would have any interest in these people other than getting them help, not what they were doing.

[She Who Laughs]

But that's different than going in there for the express purpose of destroying the indigenous culture. The goal of missionaries is to wipe out and replace the the local religion.

But it still can destroy a culture because foreign money and influence has that effect. Foreign money has all but destroyed the local economy in Haiti (and in other countries I am sure). Destroying a local economy is just as bad as destroying a local religion. People send money to a foreign country for humanitarian reasons, they believe they are "helping" when in fact they may be doing as much harm as they are good. Missionaries don't go in to a country to destroy people they go in believing they are helping by showing people the love of Jesus. Both types of "help" are done with good intentions, both can cause serious and long-lasting damage.

[QAF_Rocks]

I'm not sure if they are doing every Sunday but I'm saying I have seen it. And are you saying that it would imposible for 4 different towns to have mentally ill people? Hell growing up in Canon City I would be followed home at least 2 times a month by a very mentally person who would scream the robins were going to kill me because I had blond hair. They needed my hair to build nests and would kill me to do it. Mentally ill people are everywhere and yes, some scream about God or the lack of one. I really doubt national atheist would have any interest in these people other than getting them help, not what they were doing.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I have never seen or heard of mentally ill people standing outside churches at all, let alone in four different cities in the same state. What are the chances that there would be four (or more) different mentally-ill atheists harassing churchgoers after services end? Atheists are a small percentage of the population to begin with. I'm not saying you're making it up. I'm just saying that it seems really bizarre to me.

[QAF_Rocks]

Missionaries don't go in to a country to destroy people they go in believing they are helping by showing people the love of Jesus. Both types of "help" are done with good intentions, both can cause serious and long-lasting damage.

Of course, but one doesn't excuse the other. Missionaries go in there with the express purpose of eradicating indigenous religions.

[ladypuglover]

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I have never seen or heard of mentally ill people standing outside churches at all, let alone in four different cities in the same state. What are the chances that there would be four (or more) different mentally-ill atheists harassing churchgoers after services end? Atheists are a small percentage of the population to begin with. I'm not saying you're making it up. I'm just saying that it seems really bizarre to me.

It does sound bizarre, and I'm sorry if I came off harsh or rude to you. That was wrong of me. Maybe it is because I am Christian and have been the object of the screaming is why it sticks out to me. Now these people were not all seen in a 1 year time frame but over my lifetime of 40 plus years. More like once a decade kind of thing.

[Kitty]

I too think proselytizing under the guise of charity is immoral. Even if the official reason is "to help the poor and needy in X place, and to teach them about the love of Jesus Christ," the underlying reasons are that the missionaries think it's impossible to live a comfortable life free of poverty and violence without religion, and wish to wipe out the local religion (and culture) to "civilize" them. It just has a nicer cover now than it did when the US and Canada were expanding and organizing under the rule of European immigrants.

Also, if you have to deceive people or lie, like handing out fake money or posting links on Facebook that attract people's attention, you are a total asshole with no morals whatsoever.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Of course, but one doesn't excuse the other. Missionaries go in there with the express purpose of eradicating indigenous religions.

The question wasn't about foreign aid or trade. Sometimes it is useful, sometimes it does more harm than good.

None of that has anything to do with the fact that missionary groups have gone into areas with the specific intention of eliminating the native religion and culture, sometimes in highly invasive ways that resulted in long-term harm. Exhibit A would be the way that the Canadian government and religious groups collaborated to pluck children from Native families and send them off to residential schools.

[She Who Laughs]

The question wasn't about foreign aid or trade. Sometimes it is useful, sometimes it does more harm than good.

None of that has anything to do with the fact that missionary groups have gone into areas with the specific intention of eliminating the native religion and culture, sometimes in highly invasive ways that resulted in long-term harm. Exhibit A would be the way that the Canadian government and religious groups collaborated to pluck children from Native families and send them off to residential schools.

My response was in reply to the exact comment of

I'm also really not crazy about foreign missionary work. I don't like the idea of destroying indigenous religion and culture. I also think that missionaries did a whole lot of harm to Native communities here."

I am pointing out that it isn't just missionaries that go into foreign countries and have an impact on local cultures. It can be as simple as tourists going into a foreign culture or humanitarian workers. Have missionaries caused damage to cultures? Yes, I'm not saying they haven't. But the same can be said for humanitarian workers, tourists, explorers, etc. Any influence from outside a culture can have a huge negative impact on a culture. Just as some humanitarian aid or foreign money can be good or useful, so can a missionary have an impact for good. There are many hospitals, clinics, schools, orphanages, etc. that have been set up and still continue to be run by missionaries. There are many missionaries who simply share their beliefs and do not force anyone to believe anything in order to receive medical care, schooling, clothing, food, etc.

[QAF_Rocks]

It does sound bizarre, and I'm sorry if I came off harsh or rude to you. That was wrong of me. Maybe it is because I am Christian and have been the object of the screaming is why it sticks out to me. Now these people were not all seen in a 1 year time frame but over my lifetime of 40 plus years. More like once a decade kind of thing.

Gotcha. That makes more sense! I was envisioning it all occurring simultaneously. I think it's certainly possible that, over the course of a lifetime, someone might encounter people raving outside a church.

[emmiedahl]

I have had atheists proselytize personally, kind of. Not the obnoxious approaching-perfect-strangers, invading space thing. More of a "Why do you believe in Sky Fairy again?" or "There is no proof of God, you know that, right?" way. I am in a lot of science classes though; students get close and friendly enough as a group that these questions are not off-limits nor more personal than other discussions. I think so many religions have set up the false dichotomy between science and faith, that atheists are perplexed to find out a hard-core science nerd is also involved in religion.