Is Proselytizing Wrong on Principle? Discuss.

[ShesCrafty]

I apologize if I pissed anyone off, as that was not my intent, especially since I agree with most of the poeple on the thread. I believe people have a right to both preach about Jesus on a street corner AND hand out pamphlets on safe sex. I assure you, being a nonreligious person myself, I would much rather receive a free condom than a free bible. But when I hear the word "proselytizing", my mind goes to religion. I simply didn't understand what was meant by "secular" proselytizing.

[emmiedahl]

Yeah. I wonder whether there's a sensitive way to religiously proselytize.

I've once been to a Buddhist missionary center that was clearly built to gain new adherents. They offered free meditation classes and everyone was welcome to visit/hang out in the Stupah. They had a little bookshop with Buddhist material for sale. They were funded by a Buddhist missionary organization to bring Buddhism to the West. They weren't obnoxious about it though; just 'sharing' their religion/philosophy.

That's the sort of example that comes to mind, I guess.

I guess I consider this tolerable proselytizing because no one is invading anyone's space. The monastery sounds like it is "Hey, we are here, we have some cool stuff and would happy to show them to you!" Bit different from monks on a street corner handing out tracts.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Nothing irritates me more than proselytizing. NOTHING.

I get even more irritated when its you know, Thanksgiving, and i'm just stepping out of the shower and the doorbell rings MULTIPLE times. And when I don't answer? they bang on the back door. And then they have the gal to tell me that Judaism and Jehovah's Witness brand of Christianity are EXACTLY THE SAME RELIGION.

Yeahno.

Since i've converted to Judaism, I've had the proselytizing efforts by family and friends ramp up to a disgusting level. Its really irritating. So no, I dont' think it could ever be a good thing! If it was like the Buddhist place Soldier mentioned.... that'd be one thing. But its for the most part NOT. :(

[eohiken]

Always wrong? Maybe.

Always rude? Yes.

sum total of my opinion on the subject.

[Soldier of the One]

I apologize if I pissed anyone off, as that was not my intent, especially since I agree with most of the poeple on the thread. I believe people have a right to both preach about Jesus on a street corner AND hand out pamphlets on safe sex. I assure you, being a nonreligious person myself, I would much rather receive a free condom than a free bible. But when I hear the word "proselytizing", my mind goes to religion. I simply didn't understand what was meant by "secular" proselytizing.

ShesCrafty, you didn't piss me off, not at all!

Even though I am a 'religious' person, I agree with your general position. And I'd also rather have the condom :dance:

[mirele]

I've picketed a certain space-alien cult in the past, but I never considered it proselytizing. In fact, there are some people out there who are opposed to the cult, and not because it mistreats its own members in terrible ways and has this annoying habit of resorting to lawsuits to harass people it doesn't like, but because Scientologists don't believe in the "right" God. I don't give a shit about that. My picketing is informational in nature. I know people who practice "Scientology" outside of the allegedly official church and I don't have a problem with that as long as their practice doesn't become a substitute abusive cult that treats its members badly and hoovers money out of their wallets at every opportunity.

I'm in the business of letting people know what the Scientology organization does with the money they're shaken down for (can't hardly call something described as "crush regging" as voluntary giving), and how people who have dedicated their lives to Scientology are being treated. But I am not in the business of telling people what to believe. Hell, there are days when I'm not sure myself. I just want people to have the facts.

(And yes, I'm quite aware that people can think I'm very arrogant, but I do think I have the facts on my side.)

[Soldier of the One]

Nothing irritates me more than proselytizing. NOTHING.

I get even more irritated when its you know, Thanksgiving, and i'm just stepping out of the shower and the doorbell rings MULTIPLE times. And when I don't answer? they bang on the back door. And then they have the gal to tell me that Judaism and Jehovah's Witness brand of Christianity are EXACTLY THE SAME RELIGION.

Yeahno.

Since i've converted to Judaism, I've had the proselytizing efforts by family and friends ramp up to a disgusting level. Its really irritating. So no, I dont' think it could ever be a good thing! If it was like the Buddhist place Soldier mentioned.... that'd be one thing. But its for the most part NOT. :(

I guess a lot of this is personal perspective and experience. I grew up in an atheist home/ culture and we only had the occasional door-knocker. Proselytizers mildly amuse me but then again, they are not my annoying family members.

[meda]

Just to muddy the waters:

Can any of you imagine scenarios where 'proselytizing' (secular or religious) could actually be a good and/or a necessary thing?

When I was a union organizer, I did some secular proselytizing door to door. I felt that it was different from religious proselytizing for a couple reasons.

1. I was invited, if not by that particular worker, that's by others at the same place of employment who were interested in forming a union.

2. I was door knocking because I had specific information to give specific people about a union election, and I was not permitted to speak with employees duringbwork time. I did not randomly decide to decend like a lefty swarm of locusts on some poor unsuspecting neighborhood, start banging on doors one early morning, and start preaching solidarity.

3. Since many of the employees I was organizing were very poor and or recent immigrants, they often did not have fixed addresses or phone numbers ( this was in the pre track phone days). Visiting them where they were living was the easiest way to get them information. It was also often the place where they felt safest talking to me.

I did end up working the same block as the Mormons a few times, and I did have a few "how dare you come to my house" interactions, but I tried to always be respectful of people's time and space.

[emmiedahl]

I think that proselytizing only really applies to religious beliefs, right? Social issues would probably fall under advocacy. Advocacy is more help, less "you're doing it wrong." I don't mind being handed condoms, and I love me some gay parades. But someone screaming in my face that I am going to hell or making the homeless sit through a sermon to get a hot meal, it just feels wrong to me.

[ShesCrafty]

ShesCrafty, you didn't piss me off, not at all!

Even though I am a 'religious' person, I agree with your general position. And I'd also rather have the condom :dance:

Free condoms for all!

[LilMissMetaphor]

I assure you, being a nonreligious person myself, I would much rather receive a free condom than a free bible.

I was going to argue that the Bible would be a longer-lasting form of entertainment--y'know, if it were a desert island type scenario. But maybe not if it were tantric sex...or if you were a really fast reader.

[AudreyE]

Yeah. I wonder whether there's a sensitive way to religiously proselytize.

I've once been to a Buddhist missionary center that was clearly built to gain new adherents. They offered free meditation classes and everyone was welcome to visit/hang out in the Stupah. They had a little bookshop with Buddhist material for sale. They were funded by a Buddhist missionary organization to bring Buddhism to the West. They weren't obnoxious about it though; just 'sharing' their religion/philosophy.

That's the sort of example that comes to mind, I guess.

It doesn't bother me when you have to go to their center to get the information, and there's the fact that everyone in the country doesn't already know about Buddhist principles.

[ShesCrafty]

I was going to argue that the Bible would be a longer-lasting form of entertainment--y'know, if it were a desert island type scenario. But maybe not if it were tantric sex...or if you were a really fast reader.

As someone who has never read the Bible, I don't feel qualified to debate on whether or not it would be entertaining. As some who has used a free condom, I can definitely give it

[O Latin]

I don't think proselytizing, or the typical methods used to do it are inherently wrong. Inherently rude and annoying, maybe.

We get a fair few proselytizers on campus, and they tend to be either the passing out tracts variety, or the shouting variety. The ones passing out tracts are easily ignored and won't usually pester you if you say, "no, thanks," and the shouters don't engage with individuals unless the individual engages them first, so I almost find them less annoying than the people taking surveys or collecting signatures for petitions who will not leave you alone. I suppose clingy proselytizers would be more irritating, although I don't think doing that is any more or less wrong than pestering a stranger who doesn't want to talk about anything.

I'm talking just about the street corner ones here. Obviously targeting kids/schools is a whole different barrel of monkeys.

I also think proselytizing is rather pointless because, as others have said, most people are quite capable of finding out more about Jesus if they so desire.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I definately think proselytizing is rude and annoying. Once a Jehova's Witness was at the door and I said I wasn't interested, and they were like 'take this anyways' and shoved an anti abortion pamphlet in my hands. And it's been my experience that many of them try to stop you from walking away when they're on the street corner. The door to door kind are the rudest because they're on your turf and interupting whatever you may be doing.

But even more than rude, how do they expect that to even work? Some random person you meet once at your door or on the street telling you you'll burn in Hell unless you love Jesus has to have an extremely low success rate. Don't they want to actually gain converts? Sometimes I think they don't care about that at all. When you're talking about adults, most people have a pretty good idea what they believe in terms of religion. And if they're questioning and want to explore other options they can go to one of the zillions of places of religious observance of their own free will. Or they can Google. There's really no "need" for proselytizing anymore, and by need I mean no one needs some stranger to preach at them if they want to learn about Christianity.

[QAF_Rocks]

I'm not sure I'd hold that and find it bizarre that an atheist thinker like Ayaan Hirsi Ali would be of that opinion. The logic of 'the enemies of my enemies are my friends' is not only flawed but also dangerous. The last thing the world needs is the replacement of one fundamentalist belief-system by another. (Not saying that either *all* of Christianity or *all* of Islam are fundie, God forbid).

I was surprised, too. She mentioned it when she appeared on The Colbert Report a few years ago, and even Stephen seemed taken aback. I guess if I had to choose between Islam and Christianity in the Middle East or Africa, I'd probably go with Christianity just because it seems to provide a marginally better quality of life for women. That's not saying much, though, and fundamentalists of both stripes can be incredibly dangerous. Muslim theocracies imprison and kill gay people (among others), but Christian Uganda is just as bad.

[QAF_Rocks]

And to avoid making another post, I have seen athiests "preaching" their beliefs. One can find them one the corner of churches on sunday right when the services end. I think these people are more spoiling for fights than trying to get anyone to believe what they believe. Most Athiest really don't desire to scream on top of their lungs on a sunday morning. Crazy is as crazy does and that goes for people of all faith or non beliefs.

Where is this? Not doubting your claim, but I have never seen or heard of a group of atheists standing around on street corners at even one church, let alone multiple churches, after services end. I suppose it could happen, though, and I would consider it just as rude as the opposite situation.

[doggie]

well it is wrong if you follow the bible. besides being ineffective. I think it is mostly trying to earn god brownie points. so it is a vain act too.

Matthew 6:1-34

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ...

[Turtle]

I find the door to door/street corner proselytizing annoying and useless, but not inherently wrong.

When I attended a baptist church in middle school, we were encouraged to make friends with unbelievers, particularly people who were troubled/lonely, and do nice things for them to gain their confidence and eventually "share Jesus" with them. I find that approach to proselytizing much more dishonest and wrong.

[O Latin]

I find the door to door/street corner proselytizing annoying and useless, but not inherently wrong.

When I attended a baptist church in middle school, we were encouraged to make friends with unbelievers, particularly people who were troubled/lonely, and do nice things for them to gain their confidence and eventually "share Jesus" with them. I find that approach to proselytizing much more dishonest and wrong.

Yeah, I think I would find it much more annoying to be friends with somebody who was trying to convert me (whether or not that was their reason for befriending me in the first place) than to be bothered by strangers on the street, or even door-knockers.

[Lesterpiggott]

As someone who attends a church which does drama, music, carol services , preaching etc. on the streets it is an effective way of making people aware of the church and drumming up interest especially as this type of church is not common where I live. No one is under any compulsion to take part. It tends to be the extroverts among us who do it. People tend to stop to watch however we don't try to force anything on anyone. With regard to children I think all of us proselytise all the time. We encourage them to follow our soccer team (in my case that's Arsenal), the politics we favour, the music we like, the culture we value etc. etc. Parents with religious views are going to teach their children their faith because it matters to them. We run a club for children and many kids attend whose parents do not attend the church. They can only attend with their parent's approval and full knowledge of what the club entails.

With regard to person to person contact I do talk about what I believe when/if it is appropriate as part of normal interactions. I don't become someone's friend to reel them in. I found it harder in the past as people were wary of friendships with people like me however this has changed as this society has become more pluralistic. I find not talking about what you believe would be a weird way to engage with others. I try to live by the maxim " Always be prepared to give an account for what you believe but do it with gentleness and respect"

I'm off to work now so I must get off this!

[nimerha]

Proselytizing in public spaces is annoying as fuck, however, I have no problem with it. At businesses and schools it is absolutely abhorrent (targeting children, or employees who cannot tell you off or get away). And door to door is gross and arrogant - I value the comfort and privacy of my home highly and strangers wanting to invade it, uninvited and unexpected, for any kind of peddling - goods, ideas or religion- piss me the fuck off.

Therefore I consider those fair game. [link=http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04052003.shtml]Illustration[/link]

[golden_love]

I don't mind proselytizing when I am out and about. Actually, it doesn't happen very often where I live, but when it does I think it's free speech and that's fine with me. I dislike the door to door types. We only get JWs. My neighborhood is on the every on the every other Saturday morning schedule. I have a big picture window and they can see all the way in to our bedroom doors. I don't even get up when they knock. I don't care if they see me. I told them not to come back, so why bother telling them the same old thing. I wish there was a do not call list for door to door proselytizing.

[Artemis]

"I think that's wrong" does not equal "I think that should be illegal" or "that's unconstitutional."

Thanks Lissar. How hard is it to make the distinction? Sigh.

'I don't like it / I think it's morally incorrect' does NOT equal 'It should be illegal.' I think lots of things are wrong. It doesn't mean I think they should be made illegal because, guess what? 'I think that is wrong' is my OPINION. I don't have a right to make my opinion, law.

Sheesh, we have a democracy in both your country and mine. Opinion does not equal law.

[Artemis]

As someone who has never read the Bible, I don't feel qualified to debate on whether or not it would be entertaining. As some who has used a free condom, I can definitely give it

Yes, I'd rather have a free condom too. You can't use the Bible to enjoy sex.