This is just stupid - Republican debate

[Guest Anonymous]

Well you know there other threads and other websites....

[valsa]

Because you think there is only one right answer

How is "sexism is bad" NOT the only right answer?

[Witsec7]

[Guest Anonymous]

How is "sexism is bad" NOT the only right answer?

No because YOU think it's sexism, and I don't. I have even explained why I think it's not in an earlier post, which apparently you disagree with. And now you we're headed for another 1000 rounds of everybody trying to convince me I'm wrong. This is where I'll dig in my claws and say you can't convince me otherwise, simply for the reason that you are more or less trying to "convert" (for lack of a better word) me to something I don't agree with.

[meda]

Ok, rolled up on this one late, but going back to the semi original topic....As a union organizer and rep who has organized employees working illegally (I use "illegal" rather than "undocumented" not as a prejorative term, but to show how serious a problem it is; you can fix undocumented, you can't fix illegal), that type of employee does limit the effectiveness of a union, lower wages, and can make a workplace less safe. To be clear, that is not because they are horrible people who don't deserve to earn a living at a decent wage, but because they are working illegally, which allows employers to exploit them and use them as a wedge with other employees. It's also not just a race issue, I have represented illegal workers, skilled and unskilled, from Ireland, Cambodia, and Guatemala. All of them faced similar problems, and all of their employers knew that the workers were illegal, in some cases it's why they were hired. They were threatened, paid less, sexually harassed, and in one vivid incident I witnessed a manager attempt to run a Cambodian worker down in a parking lot because she was wearing a union shirt. That manager didn't aim for a legal worker.

I would also differentiate between agricultural labor and other types of work. Agricultural production, particularly fruit and vegetable farming, has a long history of using non-citizen labor going back to the 1920's (often as a way to bust unions, google "Bracero Program"). You can make a pretty strong argument that given any other choice, people don't want to do the work. That is not the case for many other industries that have seen a huge influx of illegal workers in recent decades. I think the most striking example would be the meatpacking industry. Until the early 1980's meatpacking was a decent paying unionized industry with an overwhelmingly legal workforce. The last meatpacking UFCW contract I researched was for Hormel, and in 1978, semi skilled floor "cutters" (people who cut the carcass into quarters) earned $14.50 an hour, had insurance and a pension. There was a concerted effort by Hormel and other companies, including poultry processors like Tyson, to bust their unions and dramatically lower labor costs. They did it by deliberately recruiting illegal workers as strikebreakers and as new hires in open shops. Tyson was rather famously busted for this about 10 years ago.

http://prospect.org/article/victims-heartland

These jobs are now dangerous, low paying, and are done by a disproportionate number is illegal workers. 25 years ago, the same work was done by legal workers. I don't think the solution is to bust the worker. We need to create some reasonable path to legal status so that employers can't exploit these people, and there must be some real jail time and fines for companies and their executives who exploit people this way.

[Witsec1]

Meda - good points. It really is a complex issue. I tend to look at it mostly from the standpoint of agriculture these days since I live in an agricultural county on the central CA coast. Our Congressman called ICE "a gestapo-type agency" a few years ago when they were conducting sweeps in the middle of the night and rounding up whole households.

What seems unfair is that capital is able to flow pretty freely through national borders, but people aren't.

[valsa]

No because YOU think it's sexism, and I don't. I have even explained why I think it's not in an earlier post, which apparently you disagree with. And now you we're headed for another 1000 rounds of everybody trying to convince me I'm wrong. This is where I'll dig in my claws and say you can't convince me otherwise, simply for the reason that you are more or less trying to "convert" (for lack of a better word) me to something I don't agree with.

So, to repeat myself from before, if your church preached that black people could not be leaders in your church (because they're black) and that they can only be in charge of childcare and food prep (because they're black), you would not find it racist?

[meda]

Meda - good points. It really is a complex issue. I tend to look at it mostly from the standpoint of agriculture these days since I live in an agricultural county on the central CA coast. Our Congressman called ICE "a gestapo-type agency" a few years ago when they were conducting sweeps in the middle of the night and rounding up whole households.

What seems unfair is that capital is able to flow pretty freely through national borders, but people aren't.

I would agree, and I support immigrant rights...I just think that the argument that " they do jobs that other people won't" really is only true for certain types of agriculture, and when well intentioned people use it as a blanket statement, it hides a lot of abuses in other industries.

[AudreyE]

No because YOU think it's sexism, and I don't. I have even explained why I think it's not in an earlier post, which apparently you disagree with. And now you we're headed for another 1000 rounds of everybody trying to convince me I'm wrong. This is where I'll dig in my claws and say you can't convince me otherwise, simply for the reason that you are more or less trying to "convert" (for lack of a better word) me to something I don't agree with.

Definition of SEXISM

1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women

2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

[emmiedahl]

No because YOU think it's sexism, and I don't. I have even explained why I think it's not in an earlier post, which apparently you disagree with. And now you we're headed for another 1000 rounds of everybody trying to convince me I'm wrong. This is where I'll dig in my claws and say you can't convince me otherwise, simply for the reason that you are more or less trying to "convert" (for lack of a better word) me to something I don't agree with.

Okay, so which is it?

You have said that A: what your church does is wrong and you will work to change, and then at other times, B: it is not sexism to you, fuck the dictionary.

You have accused us of being mean and unforgiving when we don't accept your apology for A, but it is negated by your continued insistence on B.

They are mutually exclusive. So which is it?

[AudreyE]

I would agree, and I support immigrant rights...I just think that the argument that " they do jobs that other people won't" really is only true for certain types of agriculture, and when well intentioned people use it as a blanket statement, it hides a lot of abuses in other industries.

I think I may have been the one to bring this up first, and you have a point. I probably shouldn't have thrown this out there as if I meant to make a blanket statement about all situations everywhere. It's just what's happening in my area, and it's the first thing that went through my mind when we started talking about whether a wall would "pay for itself." My point was that the issue is way too complicated to say that. (Also, I wouldn't want a wall, even if it paid for itself 3x over.)

[ShesCrafty]

No because YOU think it's sexism, and I don't. I have even explained why I think it's not in an earlier post, which apparently you disagree with. And now you we're headed for another 1000 rounds of everybody trying to convince me I'm wrong. This is where I'll dig in my claws and say you can't convince me otherwise, simply for the reason that you are more or less trying to "convert" (for lack of a better word) me to something I don't agree with.

Again, you can insist that treating women differently simply because they are women is not sexist, but common sense and Mr. Webster continue to refute you. The definition of this particular word is not really a matter of opinion, no matter how much you want it to be.

[Patsy]

Too bad we can't just build a wall though...

*da dum CH!*

Normally I enjoy sitting back and watching valsa repeatedly state "The Pope is a Catholic. The Pope is a Catholic. Bears, they do shit in the woods," in these exchanges, but in a rare happening, I got bored this time. geniebelle, you ruined my fun, and for this, I will never forgive you. No matter how many sincere apologies followed by screeching tirades you happen to post.

[desertvixen]

These jobs are now dangerous, low paying, and are done by a disproportionate number is illegal workers. 25 years ago, the same work was done by legal workers. I don't think the solution is to bust the worker. We need to create some reasonable path to legal status so that employers can't exploit these people, and there must be some real jail time and fines for companies and their executives who exploit people this way.

This, especially the bolded.

[daharyn]

What seems unfair is that capital is able to flow pretty freely through national borders, but people aren't.

Yeah. This.

FloraPoste, can I quote you to my students? That's so succinct and right on. I dig it.

[lovefromgirl]

I don't think the solution is to bust the worker. We need to create some reasonable path to legal status so that employers can't exploit these people, and there must be some real jail time and fines for companies and their executives who exploit people this way.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU. This is where I am on the subject (much to Beloved's chagrin--we've agreed to disagree).

Well, that and wondering how the hell a fence is supposed to keep any border safe when the flipping Berlin Wall had its failures. Fence would have to run pretty deep under that desert so nobody could tunnel under it, be electrified so nobody could climb it, troops patrolling every inch... do we even have the resources to waste on that endeavor?

So much easier just to make them all citizens, so we can tax them even more! I'm only being vaguely sarcastic here, too...

-- Not An Economist by Any Stretch of The Imagination

[DodgeWR]

It's also not just a race issue, I have represented illegal workers, skilled and unskilled, from Ireland, Cambodia, and Guatemala. All of them faced similar problems, and all of their employers knew that the workers were illegal, in some cases it's why they were hired.

Uh-oh, that wall/fence just got a whole lot longer if now we have to keep out people coming across the oceans. Hope all those people living beachfront enjoy their future view of our big ol' security fence.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi to (somewhat newish?) ShesCrafty and DodgeWR!

Thanks for restoring my faith in new posters by being generally awesome instead of bugfuck bonkers rug-shitters.

Would you like some ponies?

pBcqNiECUFs

[formergothardite]

Hmm....another reading comprehension....I said I was sticking round. And for crying out loud, I would think you would know the answer to that. The answer is no!

*is counting down how long it takes for a snarky lecture about how evil, dangerous, and fundie me & my church is & who will be the first to post it* :whistle:

So answer my question, how would you explain this to a little girl who wants to know why she can't be a leader? How will you tell her that her church isn't treating her as less then men? And why exactly did you say in your answer last time that you would just say "join me." as in join me in fighting for change? If your church is doing nothing wrong, why does it need change? If your church is needing change, why won't you admit what it is doing wrong?

And since apparently I really am dense, can you explain all this to me on a child's level just as you would that little girl looking at you crying because she has been told being a girl means that she can't ever be good enough to be a leader. And "I feel" isn't an answer because the older racist people I have talked to "felt" that they weren't being racist by saying "Sure black people can come to our church, they just can't do the same jobs as white people." It was just those meanies telling them they were racist, they never "felt" they were racist. So just because you don't "feel" you are in a sexist church doesn't mean you aren't.

~I am not calling you a racist, I am just asking why is it awful when people did that to black people, but just fine and dandy when people do it to women?~

[ShesCrafty]

Hi to (somewhat newish?) ShesCrafty and DodgeWR!

Thanks for restoring my faith in new posters by being generally awesome instead of bugfuck bonkers rug-shitters.

Would you like some ponies?

pBcqNiECUFs

Aww, thanks! I love ponies. May I offer another '80s cartoon icon in return?

[attachment=0]600-IM001229.jpg[/attachment]

Now I'm off to have cake for breakfast.

[emmiedahl]

Everyone always misses the real star of the eighties:

[apple1]

Everyone always misses the real star of the eighties:

My oldest (adult) daughter would LOVE this. Strawberry shortcake was her favorite (actually, could not be without it) doll.

[freejoytoo]

It's all about My-Little-Pony!

I used to watch this video over and over and over...my parents wanted to smash it. I think they may have done so in the end.

[tankgirl]

Your wrong, this was the shit in the 80's

http://youtu.be/yUi0UwqInlg

No Afternoon was complete without She-ra!

[keen23]

Uh-oh, that wall/fence just got a whole lot longer if now we have to keep out people coming across the oceans. Hope all those people living beachfront enjoy their future view of our big ol' security fence.

Also- right on the Arizona/Mexico border is a reservation. Know what can't be built on the reservation? A border fence. Know who can refuse to allow ICE to access the border? The reservation. So, sure, go ahead and build a "fence" that will have a HUGE hole in it that will just funnel all border crossings through this one unsecured (except for tribal police) spot. A fence is stupid and just won't work. There are ways to deal with undocumented works, but a fence ain't the solution.