Question for those who are still practicing Catholics

[Peas n carrots]

The thread about birth control and the Bishops got me thinking. I have a question for those who are still practicing Catholics.

I'm not asking in a condescending way, but I'm truly trying to understand why you still have faith in the church after the priest abuse scandals. It was such a massive betrayal on every level, and what few ties I had left I severed - I would actually love to excommunicate myself as I don't want them using me in their head count of church members.

The RCC proved to me as an organization, that they really don't care about their flock - it is all about protecting the clergy. It's a good old' boys club, and they care more about each other and those they are meant to serve.

There have been some half assed apologies, but the trust...what have they done to rebuild trust? Yeah they paid out some cash, but only because they had to.

Many of the priests on the local level probably care, but the farther up the ranks you go you seem to have less and less contact with the flock.

Anyways, I know I was rambling but I am still enraged by this issue and it seems in the US the outrage wasn't all that huge as say, the Jerry Sandusky accusations. The Catholic Church abuse was much more widespread and had been going on for a very very long time.

[Cran]

Although I left the Church, this has never been an issue for me.

a) Priests/Christians are no better people, just aware of being sinners, or so they should, and I think people are pretty non-decent per se, so it doesn't surprise me.

b) Technically, those called to the priesthood should have a normal sexuality (You make no good priest if you wouldn't be a good family father if you'd decided otherwise.), but in reality, people with a Catholic upbringing can EASILY confuse their desire not to have a wife and own children with a calling to the priesthood, so you get the sexual creepers, too, and it is impossible to filter them out in advance.

c) The most abuse does still happen in families.

d) The Church as an institution wants to protect its power by covering up for their own. Shitty behaviour morally, but practically good - if it works out, which it didn't.

[snarkykitty]

The thread about birth control and the Bishops got me thinking. I have a question for those who are still practicing Catholics.

I'm not asking in a condescending way, but I'm truly trying to understand why you still have faith in the church after the priest abuse scandals. It was such a massive betrayal on every level, and what few ties I had left I severed - I would actually love to excommunicate myself as I don't want them using me in their head count of church members.

The RCC proved to me as an organization, that they really don't care about their flock - it is all about protecting the clergy. It's a good old' boys club, and they care more about each other and those they are meant to serve.

There have been some half assed apologies, but the trust...what have they done to rebuild trust? Yeah they paid out some cash, but only because they had to.

Many of the priests on the local level probably care, but the farther up the ranks you go you seem to have less and less contact with the flock.

Anyways, I know I was rambling but I am still enraged by this issue and it seems in the US the outrage wasn't all that huge as say, the Jerry Sandusky accusations. The Catholic Church abuse was much more widespread and had been going on for a very very long time.

I am in no way condoning any of the abuse or coverups, but it's been theorized that there is a similar level of abuse by clergy members in all major religions, not just Catholic priests. No matter where it happens or by whom, any abuse, as well as those abused by someone in power or by someone with a perceived of authority, is an egregious shattering of boundaries.

http://www.adultsabusedbyclergy.org/Uns ... ation.html

http://www.baylor.edu/social_work/news. ... tory=60932

[fluttershies]

I am in no way condoning any of the abuse or coverups, but it's been theorized that there is a similar level of abuse by clergy members in all major religions, not just Catholic priests. No matter where it happens or by whom, any abuse, as well as those abused by someone in power or by someone with a perceived of authority, is an egregious shattering of boundaries.

http://www.adultsabusedbyclergy.org/Uns ... ation.html

http://www.baylor.edu/social_work/news. ... tory=60932

Yep. Not to minimise the anguish caused to victims of abuse by Catholic priests, but I can't help but feel that the fact that they're unmarried men makes them more suspicious to people than say, a Quiverfull pastor. Family men are percieved as more wholesome whether they are or not.

[ksuheather]

For me it is because the priests are men, not God and men sin. Also, while not to minimize what happened child abuse happens in all faiths, churches and subsets of life. Do I think what happened was wrong, absolutely! Do I think the coverup was wrong? Absolutely. I put my faith in God and my vehicle for that faith is the Catholic church.

Also, the Catholic church doesn't have a perfect history, there are other things done in the name of the church that are wrong and I see those as sins of men, not of the church.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

In Germany, you can actually leave the church and I considered it for a long time. The abuse scandals, the way gays are treated, there are so many reasons why I should. I haven't, and I don't think I will. It's the church I grew up in, the church where I still feel at home, and I don't want to leave it to those who are stuck in the middle ages. If everyone who wants change leaves, everything will stay the same.

[valsa]

I am in no way condoning any of the abuse or coverups, but it's been theorized that there is a similar level of abuse by clergy members in all major religions, not just Catholic priests. No matter where it happens or by whom, any abuse, as well as those abused by someone in power or by someone with a perceived of authority, is an egregious shattering of boundaries.

I have a problem with this argument. When talking about the abuse, it's important to differentiate the "Catholic church" as individual priests and the "Catholic church" as an institution. While I don't doubt that the levels of sexual abuse by individuals are the same in all religions, most other religions don't have a huge institution with massive resources covering for their crimes. The Catholic church, as an institution, failed to protect its most vulnerable members and that cannot be blamed on “well, human nature, including the existance of some sick bastards, is the same everywhere†like the instances of sexual abuse itself.

[slickcat79]

I have a problem with this argument. When talking about the abuse, it's important to differentiate the "Catholic church" as individual priests and the "Catholic church" as an institution. While I don't doubt that the levels of sexual abuse by individuals are the same in all religions, most other religions don't have a huge institution with massive resources covering for their crimes. The Catholic church, as an institution, failed to protect its most vulnerable members and that cannot be blamed on “well, human nature, including the existance of some sick bastards, is the same everywhere†like the instances of sexual abuse itself.

This, entirely. I give the Catholic church as a whole absolutely no pass for the fact that other people in other groups are also guilty of abuse. The cover-up, reaching the highest levels of the Church, is an additional travesty, above and beyond the abuse. If the Church will lie about something as disgusting as the sexual abuse of little children, how could you trust them to tell the truth about anything else?

You throw in their totally shitty advice about safe sex to developing countries, inequality for women, lousy attitude toward homosexuality and their recent hysterics in the US about requiring birth control coverage, and it just gets worse. I have a couple of friends who are catholic and they are lovely people. I can also understand the feeling of connection to the local community through a certain church or congregation, but I would have a really hard time with the fact that what I believe does not match up with what my church says they believe. That kind of thing is what drove my break from the church that I grew up in, anyway.

[Cran]

In Germany, you can actually leave the church and I considered it for a long time. The abuse scandals, the way gays are treated, there are so many reasons why I should. I haven't, and I don't think I will. It's the church I grew up in, the church where I still feel at home, and I don't want to leave it to those who are stuck in the middle ages. If everyone who wants change leaves, everything will stay the same.

Nitpicking is following:

You can leave the Church in an administrative sense, which means you're no longer paying the taxes associated with being a member of the main denomination. These taxes are a speciality of Austria and Germany, other countries just don't have them, the churches have to rely on donations completely. Accordingly, there is no administrative act connected with stopping to attend, you just don't go back, and nobody is the wiser.

This administrative act of ceasing to pay taxes doesn't interest the church at all, they don't recognize it and will still consider you a member, but one in grave sin, similar to not recognizing divorce, because the sacrament of baptism has, in Catholic theology, the "character indelebilis", meaning you can't give up your baptism, you can't become un-baptised and, in the theological sense, not renounce your church membership.

[Austin]

I just wish that people who were not born with uteri would refrain from telling those who were what to do with them. That right there would solve a host of problems.

[fundiefun]

I'm a convert who went through RCIA in Spring 2010 so I am still pretty new to the faith. I don't condone any cover ups and there needs to be harsher consequences for those who participate in a cover up not a slap on the damn wrist. Being a survivor of child sexual abuse myself I know how the affects of that can and do last a lifetime.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm not Catholic, but I agree with others who have said abuse isn't limited to the Catholic Church. I don't think a church or congregation should be judged by the actions of abusers. Also, keep in mind that for years (even decades) there was a huge stigma attached to abuse. It was just swept under the rug and not talked about or sought counseling or therapy for (not condoning this just stating a fact). But now society has changed. Even though there is still some stigma, more and more people are coming forward, seeking counseling/therapy, and their abusers are being prosecuted. Sure, that doesn't happen all the time, but we are making progress.

[Patsy]

I'm not Catholic, but I agree with others who have said abuse isn't limited to the Catholic Church. I don't think a church or congregation should be judged by the actions of abusers.

I think a church hierarchy should always be judged by its own actions in covering up and furthering the abuse.

[Whydoyouask]

I left the church many years ago. In my experience abuse is hidden in many formats and reaching out to the church for help gets you no where. I've though about going back a couple times but just could not stomach the thought after a couple days.

If you have studied abuse, 'church' abuse is no different than any other type. Control. power, money etc. Its all there.

[Juniper]

I'm a practicing Catholic and I think the abuse is horrific. But, like some of the posters above me, I see it more as men's failings as opposed to that of God and I do think it goes on in other religions, it just seems to be more publicized with Catholicism. To me, it's sort of like the Pope is only infallible when actually giving a homily (or at least that's how I've always been taught) but he can still sin and do bad things, I mean you just have to look at the previous popes who had affairs and illegitimate kids and everything. They're still men who can do terrible things.

[valsa]

I think a church hierarchy should always be judged by its own actions in covering up and furthering the abuse.

Furthermore, the "covering it up was just how things were done back in the day" excuse doesn't fly either. The Catholic church's only purpose is to be an institution of higher morality (if they're to be believed, the only legit institution of higher morality) We have every right to hold them to a higher standard than the rest of society back in the day.

Also, the cover up went on for long, long after talking about abuse became less stigmatized. And there's no indication that, had victims not started speaking out, they still would not be covering the whole thing up to this day (instead of just covering part of it up, or do you believe the church has come clean about everything?)

[Rosa]

If we're going to abandon every institution that covered up sexual abuse in past decades, we're going to leave a lot of rubble. Catholic churches, Baptist churches, private schools, public schools, college football, professional hockey, foster care systems, psychiatric facilities, hospitals...

We do better to make sure individuals are held accountable and institutions are reformed to prevent future abuse. There are too many to just shun the wicked and hold close to the innocent.

[Rosa]

But, I'm not Catholic and there is plenty the hierarchy is doing right this minute to make sure I wouldn't be one even if my inclinations leaned that way.

[valsa]

If we're going to abandon every institution that covered up sexual abuse in past decades, we're going to leave a lot of rubble. Catholic churches, Baptist churches, private schools, public schools, college football, professional hockey, foster care systems, psychiatric facilities, hospitals.

There's a big difference between one Baptist church or public/private school covering up abuse and The Catholic Church (hundreds of thousands of churches and insanely wealthy) making it a policy to cover for pedophiles.

Granted, I wouldn't be a member of even a single church or school that covered up abuse so...

[Rosa]

The difference is just that the hierarchy exists - it's not hard to find cases where a pastor was abusive at one church, left and went to another church, left and went to another church...just because there's no central recordkeeping office doesn't mean there's not decisions being made by people who don't want to make waves over "just" a little sexual issue or "just" the pastor's abuse of his own family.

The change in how institutions handle abuse is so big in the last few decades, it's an amazing turnaround, equal to the (amazing, brave, heartbreaking) work bringing family sexual abuse out into the open. The lawsuits and press focus on Catholic churches has been a huge part of that. I'm not at all saying we should forgive and forget. But it's not like we've unearthed all institutional coverups, by a long shot - and cleaning up the places that haven't had a bright light on them does more good than declaring every institution that fell prey to this permanently tainted.

[divadivine]

I converted in '99 or 2000.... I honestly can't remember anymore because it all runs together for me. My conversion came at a time when the abuse allegations were really coming out in my diocese. It wasn't pretty. But, I knew that not all priests abused children and I knew abuse wasn't only happening in the Catholic Church. It happens in every denomination. I converted because I felt like the Catholic Church was were I belonged. It wasn't someone screaming at me telling me I was going to hell every Sunday. I really appreciate the rituals and the symbolism. I don't condone what has happened with the abuse or how it was covered up, but I think we can move on from it and not make the same mistakes again.

[valsa]

The lawsuits and press focus on Catholic churches has been a huge part of that. I'm not at all saying we should forgive and forget. But it's not like we've unearthed all institutional coverups, by a long shot - and cleaning up the places that haven't had a bright light on them does more good than declaring every institution that fell prey to this permanently tainted.

I don't think we've even unearthed all the Catholic cover ups yet. And the church has still done all it can to screw victims out of getting reparations.

[mastercleaner]

I'm Catholic but I don't go to church as much as I would like...but back in the mid-to late 90s when I was an alter girl, our priest stood up in front of the church that he had sinned, and that he was leaving our congregation!

He got up at the end of mass and admitted that he had been sexually harassing some of the women who would go to the womens nights. And from what I can remember he did make advances to these women and even touched them, but I was only about 12 and was just sad that our priest was leaving (he was great with us kids, and the families loved him). They eventually moved him to a different church in a different town though, I don't really know what happened after that, only that he is no longer practicing, and is living in a retirement home.

I don`t agree with the whole celabicy thing though, I feel that if you are giving advice to people, like families and couples, then you should have that experience! I know Rabbis are supposed to be married and have children, otherwise how else can they give advice on the topic..

But that is really the only major thing that I don`t like about the Catholic Church

ETA: I also dont agree with the whole we dont like gays as well!

[slickcat79]

cleaning up the places that haven't had a bright light on them does more good than declaring every institution that fell prey to this permanently tainted

I agree with that, but I don't think the Catholic Church does.

I mean you just have to look at the previous popes who had affairs and illegitimate kids and everything. They're still men who can do terrible things.

There's a pretty big difference between a (consensual) affair or an illegitimate child and child abuse. If the dudes want to have sex or have kids, then clearly the Catholic church is not the place for them. It'd be really nice if the Church would just keep their collective asses out of other people's sex lives in general.

[Rosa]

I think you're right - and like I said, I wouldn't support the church for entirely other reasons, like the way they're trying to hound out liberal parishes and their leadership, investigating a lot of the women's orders, wasting money sending anti-gay DVDs out to people in my state, and fighting for special privileges in relation to employees insurance coverage.

But I also think a lot of people like to point at the catholics and make jokes about priests, instead of looking at their *own* institutions.