Question for those who are still practicing Catholics

[Boogalou]

I'm Catholic but I don't go to church as much as I would like...but back in the mid-to late 90s when I was an alter girl, our priest stood up in front of the church that he had sinned, and that he was leaving our congregation!

He got up at the end of mass and admitted that he had been sexually harassing some of the women who would go to the womens nights. And from what I can remember he did make advances to these women and even touched them, but I was only about 12 and was just sad that our priest was leaving (he was great with us kids, and the families loved him). They eventually moved him to a different church in a different town though, I don't really know what happened after that, only that he is no longer practicing, and is living in a retirement home.

I don`t agree with the whole celabicy thing though, I feel that if you are giving advice to people, like families and couples, then you should have that experience! I know Rabbis are supposed to be married and have children, otherwise how else can they give advice on the topic..

But that is really the only major thing that I don`t like about the Catholic Church

ETA: I also dont agree with the whole we dont like gays as well!

What about no women as clergy? I'd say that is a pretty big one as well.

[mastercleaner]

Yes that's a huge issue too...sorry I'm trying to do two things at once, typing with one hand and feeding the baby lol

[Peas n carrots]

Thanks for all the comments everyone. I've been reading, I've been gathering my thoughts onto how I would like to respond.

Valsa, I tend to be on the same page as you. Otherwise, I need to sleep on this a bit.

[socalrules]

I was raised Catholic and am still someone who goes to mass every Sunday, first Friday and holy day of obligation. I went to and enjoyed Catholic school. I will raise my kids the same way. I am sickened by the sex abuse scandals and cover-ups but in no way does it make me doubt my faith. I am not going to leave the Church and the place I feel God because of the actions of others. Everyone that thinks we should leave the Church, I want to know where you expect us to go? There are good and evil people and scandals in all faiths. I have never believed that sex abuse is more rampant in the Catholic Church than any other faith. I think that there is just more publicity about it and the stupidity of those who attempted to cover it up.

My going to another church isn't going to bring me closer to God, nor is it going to make me happy. I refuse to blame everyone in the Catholic Church for the actions of some. I have attended other Christian churches my family members belong to for various events, i.e., weddings, christenings, funerals and general Sunday services. They were wonderful places but in none have I ever felt God like I do in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is a part of who I am and I know that even in my darkest times, it is the place I go for strength. When I am having a hard time or a family problem, just stopping in the church, lighting a candle and saying a prayer, keeps me going. I probably need the Catholic Church more than it needs me and nothing, even the sex abuse scandals, will every make me leave.

[mrs]

I was raised Catholic and am still someone who goes to mass every Sunday, first Friday and holy day of obligation. I went to and enjoyed Catholic school. I will raise my kids the same way. I am sickened by the sex abuse scandals and cover-ups but in no way does it make me doubt my faith. I am not going to leave the Church and the place I feel God because of the actions of others. Everyone that thinks we should leave the Church, I want to know where you expect us to go? There are good and evil people and scandals in all faiths. I have never believed that sex abuse is more rampant in the Catholic Church than any other faith. I think that there is just more publicity about it and the stupidity of those who attempted to cover it up.

My going to another church isn't going to bring me closer to God, nor is it going to make me happy. I refuse to blame everyone in the Catholic Church for the actions of some. I have attended other Christian churches my family members belong to for various events, i.e., weddings, christenings, funerals and general Sunday services. They were wonderful places but in none have I ever felt God like I do in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is a part of who I am and I know that even in my darkest times, it is the place I go for strength. When I am having a hard time or a family problem, just stopping in the church, lighting a candle and saying a prayer, keeps me going. I probably need the Catholic Church more than it needs me and nothing, even the sex abuse scandals, will every make me leave.

Well stated. I agree, I'm a Catholic as well.

[valsa]

I have never believed that sex abuse is more rampant in the Catholic Church than any other faith. I think that there is just more publicity about it and the stupidity of those who attempted to cover it up.

No one is claiming that sex abuse is more rampant in the CC than in any other faith. However, the "those who attempted to cover it up" you're talking about include the people in the highest positions of power in the Catholic church (including the current pope)

If we were talking about a business where a significant portion of the employees sexually abused children, and the CEO and board of directors were covering it up, I would not buy what they were selling- no matter how much I loved the product. This is no different.

[Patsy]

Oh, and for my own part - I am not a practicing Catholic, I intend to get myself excommunicated later on, and I wish the Catholic church would not include me when they cite their worldwide numbers as some sort of defense for their behaviour. While I have a very cynical view of the world, and assume that most world leaders, heads of major corporations, and heads of large churches are involved in, complicit with, and make concessions for evils within their ranks... I think the Pope is truly awful, and not just doing what needs to be done by any person with such a high level of power.

All this being said, I'm not as critical of Catholicism as others, in one particular way, so to try to explain that part of it:

My parents were both dedicated Catholics, who weren't into the ultra-conservative side of things or all that enthused about dogma and ritual, but who did raise their children immersed in the culture of Catholicism (such as it was at that place, in that time), with all-Catholic schooling and weekly (at least) church. My mother no longer considers her religious beliefs to align with Catholicism, but it is the basis of her being and spirituality, and indirectly, but intrinsically, the reason for who she is (a person I am intensely proud of, who formed me, who would not be as healthy or as good a person without the influence of the church). My father thinks he is a Catholic, but he does not think the Pope is, and compares modern-day authorities with those who abased Galileo.

I spent my childhood surrounded by family friends who were clergy, or had been clergy, or were otherwise heavily involved in the church. The way I was raised, the values lived in my schooling (not just given lip service to), and the authenticity shown by local priests (usually in spite of the Vatican, not because of it) are all really good things that came out of a group within the church who genuinely believed in Catholicism. I have no respect for the higher-ups, though, and I don't think they have any moral authority.

tl;dr: the culture of my upbringing has given me a great appreciation for social justice, and even though I hold the Vatican in contempt, I can't turn my back on the good parts of Catholic culture among the plebs. It really did change who I became, and for the better.

[socalrules]

No one is claiming that sex abuse is more rampant in the CC than in any other faith. However, the "those who attempted to cover it up" you're talking about include the people in the highest positions of power in the Catholic church (including the current pope)

If we were talking about a business where a significant portion of the employees sexually abused children, and the CEO and board of directors were covering it up, I would not buy what they were selling- no matter how much I loved the product. This is no different.

At no point do I try and explain away the injustices done to the abuse victims. I do not agree with those in power that covered up the abuse. Based on your theory, the Church is the business and God is the product. The Church doesn't sell God to me. The Catholic Church was here way before the scandals and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. For me, religion isn't something to pick and choose like dvd player at Best Buy. You don't just buy a different brand.

I do not worship the Pope. I do not worship priests. I do not worship any person walking this Earth. I worship God alone. For me, I feel God in in the Catholic Church, which is my right. I will not give up on God or my church due to the actions of others.

I understand and agree with the anger toward the those in positions of power in the Catholic Church who have failed the church and its members. What I do not agree with is the belief that I, or anyone else, should have to walk away from their religion as though it is the only way to prove we are appalled at what has occurred. For some, it may be easy to go to another Church. For me, the thought has never occurred to me nor do I expect it to ever do so. My faith is not that weak and it has not been broken.

[valsa]

Based on your theory, the Church is the business and God is the product. The Church doesn't sell God to me.

If the church wasn't selling God to you, you wouldn't need to go to the church to get God (which you, yourself, have said- that you need to be in a Catholic church to feel God)

[socalrules]

If the church wasn't selling God to you, you wouldn't need to go to the church to get God (which you, yourself, have said- that you need to be in a Catholic church to feel God)

The Catholic Church isn't selling God to me. God isn't for sale. He has no price. If he was for sale, then I am sure I could get him for a cheaper price somewhere else, maybe Ebay. I am not ashamed to be Catholic. I wear my religion with pride. I love the Church, I love the Mass and I love the comfort it brings me. I know God exists everywhere, but for me, I feel closest to him when in the Catholic Church. If you cannot understand that, that's fine. Faith is a deeply personal issue, and ultimately, we all have practice the way that is best for us. I can only hope that everyone finds what works best for them.

[Guest Anonymous]

Furthermore, the "covering it up was just how things were done back in the day" excuse doesn't fly either. The Catholic church's only purpose is to be an institution of higher morality (if they're to be believed, the only legit institution of higher morality) We have every right to hold them to a higher standard than the rest of society back in the day.

Also, the cover up went on for long, long after talking about abuse became less stigmatized. And there's no indication that, had victims not started speaking out, they still would not be covering the whole thing up to this day (instead of just covering part of it up, or do you believe the church has come clean about everything?)

Of course the church hierarchy should be held accountable. When I said congregation, I meant parishioners. Sorry for not making that clear. I also didn't mean for any of comments regarding how things were done back in the day as an excuse. It was just a statement as to why all of these abuse scandals are just now coming to public light. There is no excuse for abuse in any era.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

Nitpicking is following:

You can leave the Church in an administrative sense, which means you're no longer paying the taxes associated with being a member of the main denomination. These taxes are a speciality of Austria and Germany, other countries just don't have them, the churches have to rely on donations completely. Accordingly, there is no administrative act connected with stopping to attend, you just don't go back, and nobody is the wiser.

This administrative act of ceasing to pay taxes doesn't interest the church at all, they don't recognize it and will still consider you a member, but one in grave sin, similar to not recognizing divorce, because the sacrament of baptism has, in Catholic theology, the "character indelebilis", meaning you can't give up your baptism, you can't become un-baptised and, in the theological sense, not renounce your church membership.

I wouldn't be un-baptised, of course, but I wouldn't be counted as a member of the Catholic church anymore.

[1004srs]

I love being Catholic. My kids are being raised Catholic. I get comfort and solace from the ritualism. It is where I belong.

I don't worship a priest or the Pope, I worship God.

Abuse by people of power does occur everywhere - it is awful and there is no excuse. Look at that school in California where they are replacing the entire staff, look at Hebzah House, and look at protestant churches. I think it is easy to target the Catholic church abuses because as an organization, they are large and have money. If a protestant minister abuses a child, the congregation can fire him and move on. There isn't a central head of a large organization to ask for damages from.

Honestly, I've been Catholic for almost my entire life. I have never been at a parish where a priest abused anyone.

[debrand]

I became Catholic after the abuse controversies. My reasons were varied. First, I was coming from a fundamentalist lifestyle so I was used to submitting to authority. Compared to fundamentalism, Catholicism is actually liberal. Plus, a lot of the theology appealed to me.

The Catholic church actually does a better job of meshing the different scripture together. So, it might be a shock to some, but I consider the Catholic Church to be closer to being biblical than most Baptists/Pentecostal etc. (All those churches that claim to be biblical) For instance, there is a conflict between Jesus' words and Pauls. Some Protestants get around this by giving more weight to Paul's words. Catholics tend to put Jesus before Paul. They interpret Paul's words through what Jesus said. That makes sense to me

Also, all the sensual aspects of Catholicism resonated with me. The incense, statues and rosaries, just add something that I needed.

When I was young, the people who reached out to me where always older Catholics. They never talked to me about converting. They just seemed to like my company for the sake of my company. Protestants typically reached out to me to change me. I resented being someone's project.

[debrand]

Sorry to put this in two posts.

Eventually, my loss of faith simply couldn't be halted. Nothing that I did would make me believe in the Christian god.

However, several of the church's stances really troubled me. For instance, the little Brazilian girl whose mother was excommunicated for getting her child an abuse. I think that there were a couple of similar cases in which the child was very young and yet, the church expected her to not end her pregnancy.

As others have stated, I felt that sexual abuse was something that the church was facing and would cause positive change within its structure. However, I now believe that the church will try to protect itself first. No matter what. That doesn't mean that there aren't good and dedicated clergy though. Isnt there some evidence that Benedict has been complicit in the coverup?

There also seems to be a troubling move to the right among American Catholics-maybe it is just the Bishops but it bothers me.

[Katiebug]

I'm a lifelong mainline Protestant and I'll admit that my husband and I considered becoming Catholic. What stopped us was 1) the attitude of the church regarding contraception, and 2) the sex abuse scandal.

My views on contraception probably could have been worked through. After all, virtually every Catholic who I know IRL uses artificial contraception. Clearly it's the norm for American Catholics to tacitly ignore the birth control issue. Still, I don't believe using birth control is a sin and is certainly not on par with abortion. Actually, if the Church wants to reduce or eliminate abortion the best way is to encourage use of reliable contraception - but that would mean admitting that people have sex before/outside marriage, and also admitting that not every married couple wants to or can afford to have a large family.

Our own denomination has had pastor abuse. Sadly, we are not immune. The overwhelming majority of Catholic priests are not abusers and it's sad that they're being tarred with one brush. However what I found distasteful about the Catholic Church was the organizational cover-up and the victim-blaming that the church has engaged in when they've been sued. It should have occurred to Church leadership that if Father John Doe has admitted to molesting little boys, the best course of action was not to keep it quiet, move him to a new parish, hope he changes with enough prayer. Rather than accepting responsibility and working to rid the priesthood of abusers an entire generation of Catholic bishops, cardinals, and Popes chose to sweep it under the rug.

Right now in my area there's a priest abuse trial going on. The archdiocese has behaved in an incredibly disgusting manner (IMO) by retaining an "expert" witness who's trying to make a case that a now-deceased priest raping a little boy repeatedly wasn't that bad. Basically the argument of the archdiocese was that since the victim didn't refuse to be around the predatory priest (who was known to have abused other boys in a different parish and been put through a Catholic-run rehab program) that means he must be gay and must have wanted it in a way. :shock: And the psychiatrist said that far from experiencing real PTSD, the abuse could have been a positive experience!

I have no idea why the Catholics in the pews aren't standing up and saying to their leadership, "This is wrong. You messed up a few decades ago, now take real responsibility instead of overtly blaming the victim." The attitude taken by the archdiocese's lawyers and witnesses is the antithesis of the attitude of sorrow and reconciliation expressed by the church publicly. This is only the first trial against the archdiocese for the crimes of this priest and I expect it will only get nastier. This now-adult victim of abuse is a businessman and father of two and his father is a retired Catholic deacon, so it was tougher for the archdiocese's lawyers to make the claim that he was a damaged, anti-Catholic person just out to get the Church. Instead they decided to hire a quack to tell a jury that a teenage boy "liked" being raped by a priest.

If anyone's interested, here's an article about the trial: http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut ... 6381.story

Incidentally the jury did find the archdiocese reckless and negligent a few days later. That was a good thing, at least. But seeing the behavior of the archdiocese that we'd be joining has convinced me that the Catholic church will not be the right place for our family.

[doubtingkimmy]

This is a difficult question to provide a clear and easy to understand answer to. Since it is a question of faith, it's not like one can list empirical evidence to support one's beliefs: if you could, it wouldn't be faith, it would be something more akin to science. Also, spiritual beliefs are such personal things that within the same denominations or even the same church I doubt that you would find many folks who all believe all tenants in the same way and with the same fervor. That being said, I can tell you why I personally left Catholicism for a time, and also why I eventually returned.

The reasons why I, a cradle Catholic who lectured at mass from the time I was 14 until I went away to college, left the church included the following: my firm pro-choice stance is obviously completely at odds with the Catholic Church, my absolute support of a woman's right to determine when and if she will bear children is likewise at odds with Catholic anti-artificial contraceptive dogma, the repugnant manner in which the church hierarchy handled the abuse of children at the hands of clergy weighed heavily on my mind and conscience, my distaste for the current pope who seems at times to be trying to drag the church back into the dark ages also helped to crush what little faith I still retained in my religion, and finally, the last straw, the installation of an arrogant, dismissive, bully of a bishop in my diocese who shut down all dialogue with any party or entity who dared to question his edicts finally sent me out the door, and my feelings at the time were such that I would never have dreamed that I might one day want to return.

In the interim, I explored several different faiths, reading all that I could and visiting any churches, temples, and meeting halls that seemed to offer a worship experience that might more closely align with my beliefs. Unfortunately, none of these experiences touched me in the same manner that the Catholic rite of mass did and does. I still hadn't found any faith that completely aligned with my beliefs and preferred manner of worship. I continued to drift, spiritually speaking, and edged ever closer to a deistic world-view, and at one point, wondered if I wasn't really avoiding the fact that my spiritual and mental beliefs had actually placed me in the realm of agnosticism. Then, I became pregnant with my daughter, and without going into a lot of personal details that I'd rather not disclose, some things occurred during the pregnancy and delivery that made me realize that I was still, however tentatively and balky, a believer.

Flash forward to the present, and I now classify myself as a happy cafeteria Catholic. I have come to terms with the fact that I may never find a religion that completely suits me, and have decided to take the many good things that I find in Catholicism and leave the rest. We have a new, wonderful bishop (the old one was quite suddenly "retired" after most of the diocese went into open revolt against him -- who says that Catholics don't stand up to their establishment), and I found a progressive parish that contributes great good to our local community, but doesn't make it a point to harp on the "party line." For example, this past weekend, the parish was having a "celebration of marriage" as one of the themes of the mass. I thought to myself "well, here we go with the whole "sanctity of marriage" and high-pressure anti-gay marriage tripe." To my relief, the anti-gay marriage message wasn't even alluded to, but rather the theme was about married folks sticking together during the tough times, and an acknowledgement of two parish couples who had just reached the 60 years married milestone.

I believe that while it may make only glacial progress, the Catholic Church is changing, and that if this change is not on-going and positive, there will eventually be a great schism within the church with a very sizable more liberal faction breaking off. I personally know of no Catholics of my generation or younger who support the anti-contraceptive and anti-gay stances of the church, and this younger, more liberal contingent of Catholics is far, far less willing to stand mute and docile while the church's established hierarchy continues to push these antiquated and intolerant views.

[Hane]

I was a loyal Catholic for the first 54 years of my life: lector, choir member, religious ed teacher, parish council officer. I loved the spirituality, the intellectual stimulation, and church's history of social justice work. For a long time, I was a perfect example of the devoted but dissenting Catholic, attending retreats and believing that I and people like me could make a difference.

Then I noticed, over the past couple of decades, the church's inexorable move to the far right. I realized how very important full female empowerment and marriage equality were to me, and decided I could no longer sit there trying to believe in dogma such as the virgin birth and the resurrection.

So now I'm a UU. I miss the ritual of the Mass, but I don't feel like a hypocrite.

[reds]

There's a big difference between one Baptist church or public/private school covering up abuse and The Catholic Church (hundreds of thousands of churches and insanely wealthy) making it a policy to cover for pedophiles.

Granted, I wouldn't be a member of even a single church or school that covered up abuse so...

Sorry if this was brought up before but i havent gotten to the end of the thread yet.

One Church covering it up rather than a whole institution? What about the Boy Scouts? If there was reports of abuse the scout leader was "fired" and banned from that troop. But there was no informing the police, the officials, or anyone else. The boy scouts decided to keep it "in house" to protect their image. So now will you ban your kids from being in the boy scouts?

[valsa]

Sorry if this was brought up before but i havent gotten to the end of the thread yet.

One Church covering it up rather than a whole institution? What about the Boy Scouts? If there was reports of abuse the scout leader was "fired" and banned from that troop. But there was no informing the police, the officials, or anyone else. The boy scouts decided to keep it "in house" to protect their image. So now will you ban your kids from being in the boy scouts?

Actually, I already wouldn't have let my son be a Boy Scout due to their anti-homosexuality policy.

However, even if they were pro-gay, the scenario you describe would lead me to not let my son be a member.

Although what the Catholic church did was actually worse than what you've described here. The only applicable analogy would be if the Boy Scouts found out a scout leader had molested the children, then they transferred him to another scout group in another town to be a scout leader there. The Catholic church didn't "fire" their pedophile employees, they just moved them somewhere they'd have a new pool of unsuspecting victims.

[slickcat79]

Sorry if this was brought up before but i havent gotten to the end of the thread yet.

One Church covering it up rather than a whole institution? What about the Boy Scouts? If there was reports of abuse the scout leader was "fired" and banned from that troop. But there was no informing the police, the officials, or anyone else. The boy scouts decided to keep it "in house" to protect their image. So now will you ban your kids from being in the boy scouts?

Damn straight. Considering the BSA's opinions on gays and atheists, I would never want my sons in Scouts.

Also, the wiki article on sex abuse in Scouting (how freaking sad is it that there's a wiki article?) lists dozens of cases of prosecution, conviction, millions paid in damages, etc. It's just a shame it's taken so long for them to do anything about it, and it's still not enough.

[alaeangelorum]

I was a loyal Catholic for the first 54 years of my life: lector, choir member, religious ed teacher, parish council officer. I loved the spirituality, the intellectual stimulation, and church's history of social justice work. For a long time, I was a perfect example of the devoted but dissenting Catholic, attending retreats and believing that I and people like me could make a difference.

Then I noticed, over the past couple of decades, the church's inexorable move to the far right. I realized how very important full female empowerment and marriage equality were to me, and decided I could no longer sit there trying to believe in dogma such as the virgin birth and the resurrection.

So now I'm a UU. I miss the ritual of the Mass, but I don't feel like a hypocrite.

I've not been alive long enough to notice a move to the right but I have similar views to you - I love the ritual and spiritual aspects of Catholicism and attitudes towards social justice but I struggle with the stance on contraception, divorce and sexuality. I've not left but I do go to Church of England services instead of Catholic ones frequently.

As for the abuse - some stupid people did some terrible things while in positions of power. But that doesn't, for me, change the teachings of the Church or its essence. I don't think the Church should be defined by that.

[3 is enough]

I was born and raised a Catholic, but haven't been attending Mass regularly for the past 10 years.

I guess I have always been a "cafeteria Catholic", but it never bothered me.

First, I stopped going to confession when I was a teenager. Why should I tell some old guy my sins when I could just pray for forgiveness?

Then, I got married (in the church), but never gave a second thought to using birth control. Some old guy in Rome was not going to tell me that I couldn't decide when to have children, and how many I wanted.

We had our children baptized, and they had their First Communions. Around that time, our parish was having a capital campaign to fund a gym( NBA sized basketball court), and cafeteria/reception hall for the school. They "strongly suggested" that we give all of the money we budgeted for charity to this very important cause. (Over and above the weekly envelopes, of course.) My daughter, who was 12 at the time, made the astute comment that all they cared about was our money. We left the parish. At the same time, the principal of the school, a former friar from Boston, suddenly left. No explanation was given for his departure, but since my boys, who did not attend the school, but did have CCD classes there weekly, had always told me they found him "creepy", I was pretty sure something was being covered up.

I am appalled by the way the Church has handled the pedophilia scandal. I don't agree with their stance on birth control, divorce, their clinging to the celibacy rule for priests, and the refusal to allow women to be ordained. I don't think the pope is infallible. I think the Vatican is just as corrupt as most governments. I really don't believe that the choice of a pope is divinely ordained- it's all politics. I still think there was something fishy about the death of Pope John Paul I.

I have 4 brothers. None of us attend Mass regularly. My mother still goes to Mass every week, but interestingly, she has told me that if she was my age, she probably stop going too. She doesn't agree with a lot of things, but says she's too old to change, and the ritual of the Mass comforts her.

I guess that's how I feel too. I do enjoy the ritual of the Mass, but as far as I'm concerned, a lot of the rules came from men, not God, and I don't agree with them.

I love the ritual and spiritual aspects of Catholicism and attitudes towards social justice but I struggle with the stance on contraception, divorce and sexuality.

That's exactly what I was trying to say, but I couldn't find the words.