Duggars: Black Sheep and Kool Aid?

[snarkykitty]

I think Josiah will be the first to go, and he is just as likely to get kicked out as to leave on his own. Regardless of his oreintation, he seems to be the most willing older kid to react naturally, and he has brought on Jim Bob's wrath before. And while I do believe that Josh is the favored child and they truly do give a higher status to sons, I also think that in this particular family girls have a higher value because of their work potential. Josh is safe from everything because he's the oldest son and the face of the movement, and John David is just sort of reserved and quiet, but there's no room for a kid who speaks his mind and also doesn't contribute as much to running the household. I can totally see Jim Bob kicking him out for some minor or imagined infraction of the rules, and then using him as an example for the rest. Instead of "Be grateful I don't kick you out at 18 like other parents do", it will be "Be grateful I don't kick you out at 18 like I did to Josiah because you're all sinners like he is and I have the right and power to do it."

I don't mean to slap wrists, but it's not really fair (kind? I don't know what word to use here) to speculate on a child's sexuality, especially the child of a very controlling, religious fundamentalist.

[koolmom]

I don't think any of us here are snarking on Josiah's possible orientation, but we all know that those who might be "different", will face much harsher obstacles than from those who aren't. Even if he weren't full-on gay, but a bit effeminate, Josiah would have a tough time of it regardless, thanks to his ignorant parents and family.

And about my having to leave my abusive home, I had to lie to my dad for a full 24-hours until I left, thanks to a weekend trip planned to my grandmothers' that I wouldn't be around for. That was hard to do, because I loved going to my grandmothers' and kind of hated having to throw over a visit instead of the spontaneous departure I was already undertaking. (By the way, this grandmother was my dad's mother, who partially raised me, but cherished me, nonetheless). Any of the Duggar kids would have to learn to lie if they were to make an escape the way I did. Wonder how that would bode on their Jesus-whipped consciences?

[JenniferJuniper]

I don't mean to slap wrists, but it's not really fair (kind? I don't know what word to use here) to speculate on a child's sexuality, especially the child of a very controlling, religious fundamentalist.

People have been speculating about Josiah for years on this board and the previous one. I agree that it's not fair (and personally I couldn't even guess whether he'll turn out to straight, gay, bi, trans, or asexual), but it is what it is and we aren't going to stop it. The horses have left the barn already.

Back to Josiah and the comment someone made about his tendency to be more honest than the others, I also recall him answering a question on the Today show and when he started to admit that the kids fight a lot, he was abruptly cut off by Jill, as if she was ready for him.

There are a gazillion boys between the ages of 7 and 17 in that family. I'm sure they fight constantly (they're BOYS! And they're all in one bedroom.) and I'm sick of the image being presented by the Duggars of complete harmony, sweetness and light. It has to be a lie, and Josiah is the only one who has ever given us a glimpse of the truth.

I'll continue to have hope for him and send good thoughts his way. Because once one breaks away, it will be much easier for any of the others with free-thinking potential to follow.

*Just edited to add that I also agree with bananacat's assessment of Josiah's place in the family. He's not a girl (and therefore of little help in the areas where help is most needed) and he appears to have no skills like jack-of-all trade brothers John and especially Joseph, who is not much older than he is. So he's the first of the kids to really have no defined adult role within the Duggar compound. Toss in intelligence and general honesty and I think it makes him the best candidate to be the first out.

[koolmom]

So much for Jill's "compassion"...

[Peas n carrots]

I've lost hope for the oldest girls. They are too invested in this lifestyle. They will wait around to get married, and probably shift to being more fundie lite, and perhaps in time conservative Christian. I don't see an abrupt transition, and as long as J'chelle is making fetii (she will get pregger a few more times I'm sure, to compete with Kelly Bates, but I'm doubtful of another full term pregnancy) those older girls will be around for a while.

I agree that John David and Joseph will quietly move towards a less conservative lifestyle, though I'm sure whoever they marry will be of good ATI stock. Smuggar...I think he has already transitioning. I'm not sure how many kids him and Anna will have, but if they aren't spacing them out on purpose it seems she may not be as super fertile as J'chelle.

So the rest...I tend to agree if anyone is presented with an opportunity to leave, it will be Josiah and Joy. Any younger, to me it is too hard to tell right now. I could see Josiah and Joy possibly partnering up and getting out as soon as they are over 18,but as someone noted above, that is only if they are presented with the opportunity to leave.

[SpeakNow]

I've always thought Joy or Johannah would be the first to leave

[Markie]

I would hope one of the older ones leave the hard-core fundie lifestyle before Johanna is able to. Even if they go fundie-lite, like their cousin Amy. I actually hope that mixing with fundie-lites on this political tour, the older ones continue to have more exposure to not-so-crazy Christianity. While the older ones (Joseph and up) do appear to have drunk the Kool-Aid, perhaps they will break away from Gothard and live a more mainstream lifestyle than they were raised. The Jury is still out on the younger kids about whether any one of them may be a Black Sheep. To give Josh and Anna credit, they do not appear to shun the 'black sheep" of the Keller clan like the parents and Priscilla do - and even Priscilla has invited all her siblings to her wedding.

[3 is enough]

Despite outward appearances, I think Smuggar has the potential to leave.

He's all about what HE can get. Right now its in his best interests to toe the line, but when the gravy train dries up, and it will, all bets are off. His business is a joke- there's no way he makes enough to live on, especially in the style he has grown accustomed to. Obviously he doesn't take it seriously at all, or he wouldn't be leaving at the drop of a hat to go campaigning and on family trips.

He's certainly enjoying living the high life- staying at the Ritz, eating out (even if it is junk food), buying his wife Coach purses, and not having to work.

Faced with living on his car lot earnings, I have no doubt he'd be quick to take an offer for a tell-all book.

[FJismyheadship]

Jill Duggar and Anna Hackel

Just a thought... would it really be so wrong to let the girls hang out with BOYS??? I mean, shouldnt Michelle and Jim Bob TRUST their eldest daughters, especially now that they are over 18? Dont most normal parents trust their kids to make the right decisions once they reach a certain age?

[meow139]

Jill Duggar and Anna Hackel

Just a thought... would it really be so wrong to let the girls hang out with BOYS??? I mean, shouldnt Michelle and Jim Bob TRUST their eldest daughters, especially now that they are over 18? Dont most normal parents trust their kids to make the right decisions once they reach a certain age?

Aww, it thought you meant an actual pole. (read: pole dancing)

[FJismyheadship]

No, but that wuld be hilarious.

Its still a defrauding picture.

I saw Jill's shoulders in one picture... the shirt just BARELY had sleeves on them.

So if Jill is showing shoulders and knees thwen I wouldnt count her out of the running just yet.

[bananacat]

I don't mean to slap wrists, but it's not really fair (kind? I don't know what word to use here) to speculate on a child's sexuality, especially the child of a very controlling, religious fundamentalist.

Right, that's why I specifically said that this applies to him regardless. Even if he's the most straight man to ever live, Jim Bob still clearly has it out for him. Since when is it speculating to say that some person could have any kind of orientation?

[freealljs]

I think JimBoob is a little jealous of Josiah, because Josiah seems very intelligent and compassionate in ways that JimBoob can never be. Josiah seems more enlightened than the rest of the older kids. He may drink the koolaid in front of JimBoob and Mullet, but he goes in the prayer closet and spits it out in the bin. I have hopes that Josiah will leave and have a place for Joy or any of the other kids to run to.

I also would like to see Jana leave, because even in recent pics, she looks like the light of life has completely left her eyes. I'd hate to see her marry some fundy guy only to escape TTH and deep down not be happy. I hope she finds the opportunity to leave.

[JenniferJuniper]

Despite outward appearances, I think Smuggar has the potential to leave.

He's all about what HE can get. Right now its in his best interests to toe the line, but when the gravy train dries up, and it will, all bets are off. His business is a joke- there's no way he makes enough to live on, especially in the style he has grown accustomed to. Obviously he doesn't take it seriously at all, or he wouldn't be leaving at the drop of a hat to go campaigning and on family trips.

He's certainly enjoying living the high life- staying at the Ritz, eating out (even if it is junk food), buying his wife Coach purses, and not having to work.

Faced with living on his car lot earnings, I have no doubt he'd be quick to take an offer for a tell-all book.

I don't think he has the gonads to ever write a tell-all. He's still Mommy's dearest boy and he's probably afraid of Jim Bob. He's a cowardly little weasel, IMHO.

I do think Jim Bob is probably disgusted with him though, even if he hasn't heard about the on-line comments he's made. (although 5 will get you 10 Famy snitched to Deanna who alerted Boob.)

[Georgiana]

If Jana isn't already half out the door (which I've suspected since her 're-education'), I'd bet one of the lost boys. For the older girls, chances are now that they'll marry out rather than cause a scene. Plus, at least some have drank the kool-aid, so they might be willing to tattle on the others if they were to try anything. As for the youngest ones, Michelle may eventually be done popping out kids which means she might, MIGHT have the inclination to actually be a mother and watch over them.

As for the lost boys, I think there will be a time when the girls are gone and Michelle is too busy caring for kids where they can make their escape. I don't think any of them are particularly attached to the lifestyle. And I hope it's Josiah. I've got a soft spot in my heart for that guy.

[dawniecakes]

Having four of them 18+ and none except John David, has have even started prepping for a life outside the compound, I really don't think any of them are going make it out in the way we think they should. Instead it will be subtle and slow like in Joshie's case through marriage, which isn't really freedom to any of the girls unless they secretly get the depo shot or something.

I wish they did, but I don't think most of the kids have any chance of making their own choices in life as long as Jim Bob Michelle holds the money card and the threat of shunning over their heads. If any leave, its the really little ones, so we will have a long wait.

I hope I'm wrong, though.

[samithemage]

As for Smuggar, as long as the checks keep rolling in, in one form or another, he'll keep spouting the party line. Even if it's not from TLC, if he can get $ from appearances on the ATI circuit, he'll keep it up. When the money runs out, things will be a different story.

I get the feeling that Jana will not be content to be a SaHD and that's why she's been having some "re-education" lately. I get the feeling that she'd like to start her own family. It would lessen her workload tremendously for several years at least, and I she found a somewhat respectful man she could probably lead a somewhat happy life. However, I just get the vibe that if they try to keep her a SaHD forever, that she'll eventually rebel. She's obviously been unhappy lately. I doubt she'd be the first to leave, but if Josiah or Joy left, I feel like she wouldn't be far behind.

I have no idea about JD, but I could see him marrying an ATI/Quiverful girl, but only having a handful of kids and living a quiet life. He seems quiet and reserved. I can't see him in out and out rebellion, but maybe having "only" 5-7 kids and living quietly.

As for Jill, I've always thought that as long as they allow her to do her mission work and be "of service" to others that she'll be happy enough to tow the party line. She's a people pleaser and wants to keep her parents happy. It makes me sad for her because she'd be an amazing teacher and mom, but I feel like she's the one being led to be a SaHD for life.

As for Jinger and especially Jessa, lately they've seemed so kool-aid drinking, princessy that it drives me crazy. I hope they outgrow the worst of it. That being said, I can't see Jinger with a super fundy guy, and I can't see Jessa living the typical poor Quiverful life of 12 babies and a man who can barely make enough money to keep them fed. To me it seems that Jessa staying in the movement depends on Boob finding a well off fundy guy for Jessa to marry.

Josiah and Joy seem the most unhappy at the moment, but that could be prayer closeted out of them. They are the ones that I have the most hope for in terms of leaving the movement though. Josiah has so much more potential than ATI will ever let him fulfill and is obviously not conforming as well as he should. Joy just seems miserable. She's a bright, tomboy of a girl, with so much potential, and it's clear that trying to conform to being a good little SaHD is crushing her spirit.

Those are the only ones I think are old enough to have any idea about. The howlers and younger are still too young. Boob and J'chelle may yet break them. I pray that they don't

[BayLee_10]

Hate to say it, however I don't think any of the Duggar kids will actually leave the life. All of their friends, relatives and history is bound to that family. They have no real skills to support themselves plus I believe they do love their parents and siblings. What I believe will happen is that the kids will just slowly start watching TV, going places on their own, they have already changed much of their clothing styles. By the time the Duggar grandkids are adults most of the Gothardite will be gone, or at least fundie light. Yes, the kids have seen what is outside their box, but they currently would not be able to live there.

[JenniferJuniper]

Actually, I think the Howlers could turn out to be the most challenging of all for their parents. There are so many of them so close in age, if I'm counting correctly, six from the twins to Jackson, and they all remind me of the Lost Boys from Peter Pan.

At some point, the older girls are going to have to be married off or they'll end up old maids in their world. They have no real work qualifications and once the little girls become more self-sufficient, only one of them plus Joy and maybe eventually Hannie will be needed on the compound. And if you aren't needed, you are a drain on Dim Bob's finances and need to be shifted off to a husband. Once the show ends, I'll bet at least two or three are married off very quickly.

The twins just turned 13, so we're looking at many years of teenaged boys ruling the roost. Teenaged boys who have no memories of any life before the spotlight and all the fun trips in the real world. Ha, even though the show will be over by then, I'd pay to be a fly on the wall to watch Boob and Michelle try to deal with them.

[mockingbird]

Does anyone know what episode it was when Josiah walked off camera when J20 was announced? Is it on youtube? I missed that one but would love to see it! Go Josiah!

[JenniferJuniper]

Hate to say it, however I don't think any of the Duggar kids will actually leave the life. All of their friends, relatives and history is bound to that family. They have no real skills to support themselves plus I believe they do love their parents and siblings. What I believe will happen is that the kids will just slowly start watching TV, going places on their own, they have already changed much of their clothing styles. By the time the Duggar grandkids are adults most of the Gothardite will be gone, or at least fundie light. Yes, the kids have seen what is outside their box, but they currently would not be able to live there.

I think most of the kids will leave, maybe not the oldest girls, but most of the younger kids. They'll have each other and a well known last name to give them a head start, and once the spotlight is truly gone, I think Jim Bob and Michelle will end up at some level accepting the fact that the show permanently changed the course of the lives of all of the kids in the family. They are the ones that sold out, not the kids.

[xReems]

Does anyone know what episode it was when Josiah walked off camera when J20 was announced? Is it on youtube? I missed that one but would love to see it! Go Josiah!

I believe it's the recent season finale episode, where the Duggars answer questions from viewers. I believe the episode is called "Duggars: All You Wanted To Know"

It's kind of faint but someone on here did the screenshots of that particular scene so it's easier to notice.

[Discobiscuit]

When trying to analyze or second-guess a person's actions re a move of this manner, one has to take into consideration many variables that may or may not come into play during a situation that, in regular everyday circumstances, may not occur to said person. One question that needs to be asked of any of the Duggar kids is, which one of these kids could, under certain circumstances, possibly instantaneously think on their feet if the situation presented itself?

The reason I'm asking this in this manner is because I escaped from my abusive, controlling home largely because a situation presented itself, and had I NOT thought on my feet at that moment, I might have never left. I was already at work one day (yes, I actually got to work), and I got a phone call to interview for another job. Had I gotten that fateful call at home, I probably wouldn't have gone forward with leaving my home at all. Once I'd told the new employer I'd accepted the job (over the phone), within seconds, I already asked them if I could come in the day after they asked me "because I was in the middle of moving", which technically, I wasn't, but because I'd suddenly been handed a "Get Out of My Abusive Home Card" per se, I realized this would be my ticket out. Previously, I'd figured in order to make a successful escape from my home, I'd have to have another job where I couldn't be found by my family. So one might think that any of these kids could do that if they saw a chance to leave when the moment occured, just as I did.

So, if you examine this from that aspect, which one of the Duggars' COULD possibly make a snap decision that could mean a "make or break" situation?

My money is on Josiah or Joy having the ability to do this.

[jaynie]

I suspect most of them will end up more relaxed than their parents. That kind of lifestyle involves a ridiculous amount of effort for very little return that it seems like a lot of second-generation fundies are unwilling to keep up. Some might work their way up to mainstream Christianity, or even have a change/loss of religion. They do have 19 kids, all with more than the usual fundie levels of exposure to the world, and we do only see what they want us to see, so I wouldn't rule anything out.

Like, it seems, everyone else, I do see Josiah and Joy as the most likely to break away thoroughly. They do seem cleverer and more rebellious than the others, and closer to each other, so if they could escape together and support each other emotionally they might stand a better chance than a lone Duggar. Both are the proverbial square pegs (and I always took the rampant spec about Josiah as proof, not of his sexuality (which we can't know) but of the fact that he's not exactly likely to flourish in a macho-man role like he's supposed to). Their strengths seem to compliment each other. Also, they both strike me as the type who are not so likely to break with punishment, but rather to be pushed into actually rebelling.

I also think if one gets away, even if they just slip into a fundie-lite lifestyle, that will give the rest a chance. So hopefully when Hannie's old enough to correct her abysmal education and head off to uni, she'll have quite the support network! :) On that note, someone mentioned Anna's folks' bad treatment of their own rebels as a deterrent to rogue Duggerlings, but actually, since Anna and Josh themselves are still in touch, it might actually serve to reassure them that they might not have to completely lose their families -- even Smuggar! (though maybe that is a downside after all...)

[lilwriter85]

Actually, I think the Howlers could turn out to be the most challenging of all for their parents. There are so many of them so close in age, if I'm counting correctly, six from the twins to Jackson, and they all remind me of the Lost Boys from Peter Pan.

At some point, the older girls are going to have to be married off or they'll end up old maids in their world. They have no real work qualifications and once the little girls become more self-sufficient, only one of them plus Joy and maybe eventually Hannie will be needed on the compound. And if you aren't needed, you are a drain on Dim Bob's finances and need to be shifted off to a husband. Once the show ends, I'll bet at least two or three are married off very quickly.

The twins just turned 13, so we're looking at many years of teenaged boys ruling the roost. Teenaged boys who have no memories of any life before the spotlight and all the fun trips in the real world. Ha, even though the show will be over by then, I'd pay to be a fly on the wall to watch Boob and Michelle try to deal with them.

I think that is going to happen in the next couple of years. Boob will eventually realize that some of his daughters have to leave. I hope the older girls realize how stunted in some ways. Jana is now 22 and she has no work experience. I know several young women her age who have 2 to 4 years of work experience. I also think if the show gets canned, there will be courtships.

I can see Boob also marrying off John David and having him live in that house they fixed up.