Duggars: Black Sheep and Kool Aid?

[meow139]

Who do you guys think is going to be the first to escape? what about the one who will grow up to be a perfect little fundie? Discuss here.

[Witsec7]

Who ever leaves first will start a precedent and hopefully open the flood gates for many QF kids to leave and seek independent lives.

[lilwriter85]

I think the first one that might is leave is Joy.

[bbfreethinker]

Who ever leaves first will start a precedent and hopefully open the flood gates for many QF kids to leave and seek independent lives.

From your keyboard to the Flying Spaghetti Monster's ears. Hmm, does the Flying Spaghetti Monster have ears?

[Witsec7]

From your keyboard to the Flying Spaghetti Monster's ears. Hmm, does the Flying Spaghetti Monster have ears?

Indeed the FSM does have ears, they look like cavatelli.

I know this because I live in the exact town where the FSM was revealed to that mortal known as Bobby Henderson...ramen

[sera]

I wish it were one of the older girls, but I bet it would be easier for one of the Boys, like John or Joseph. Maybe a boy could break free and save the sisters.

[romadiva]

Black Sheep: John David, Jana,Jessa, Jinger, Josiah, Joy, Johanna

Cool Aid: Josh, Jill

Hard to really tell, not everyone gets enough screen time, howlers young but will likely drink the cool aid

[PBrooke]

I don't know why everyone thinks Jill is the one drinking the Kool-Aid, simply because she says what's expected of her. She's also given evidence for being a truly compassionate person. People like that aren't generally content with lipservice, do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do hypocrisy that so many fundies have. Because of her relative innocence and big heart she's all the more likely to be disillusioned someday and leave. Unlike Jessa, for example, who is something of a princess for a fundie. Jill might not be the first to leave, but can we really imagine her shunning one of her siblings if they do? And then that sets up an internal conflict.

[O Latin]

I can't picture any of them leaving in a big, dramatic, all at once way. I think they are more likely to slowly become less fundie, like some of Anna's siblings have done.

[meow139]

I don't know why everyone thinks Jill is the one drinking the Kool-Aid, simply because she says what's expected of her. She's also given evidence for being a truly compassionate person. People like that aren't generally content with lipservice, do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do hypocrisy that so many fundies have. Because of her relative innocence and big heart she's all the more likely to be disillusioned someday and leave. Unlike Jessa, for example, who is something of a princess for a fundie. Jill might not be the first to leave, but can we really imagine her shunning one of her siblings if they do? And then that sets up an internal conflict.

You have a point... I think that if one of the older ones leave, Jill will be close behind.

[Kitty]

I don't know. From what I've seen of the show, Jill seems to be on the receiving end of some aggression from the others. There was one talking head interview where Jinger looked like she was about to tear her head off, and then there's that clip of Joy flinging hangers at her. Maybe Jill is genuinely sweet, but her tendency to do what's expected of her would likely anger her more rebellious siblings. Or she's just not that sweet off-camera and the others know this. I think I'll go with the first, because Jill does seem sweet and compassionate.

She very well could be drinking the Kool-Aid, but her wish to help others is greater than her need to please. Like, she may very well be doing fine under the system, or it doesn't particularly bother her, because she really wants to do something that lets her use her nurturing side. Who knows, maybe she'll find another church, pretend it's fundie, and flee as soon as a missionary trip comes her way.

I'm not even entirely sure that Josh is drinking the Kool-Aid, since he's done a lot of things his parents wouldn't, like getting a big-screen TV and growing a beard. He's an asshole for sure, but I've heard non-fundies spout his bullshit, so Josh may wind up being the run-of-the-mill values-voter redneck.

This sort of thing seems to have a crazy high turnover rate, so I'll be surprised if that many stick around. Hell, the older twins and Jill are probably wondering when the hell they get to court/marry, since they're already older than Josh was when he did. I bet one of those three will be the first to leave.

[emmiedahl]

I think Jill is that reliable, obedient kid who is happy to make other people happy. She's not really buying into anything, just going with the flow.

Josh will be so outta there as soon as reality hits--that eebil reality in which he is working at a sucky job with 18 wailing kids underfoot and Anna's stomach looks like the Mississippi river delta from all the stretch marks. He buys into the life because it gets him what he wants, but he'll be losing his religion if it ever stops paying off.

I think Jana could leave and that it would tear her up inside. Joy might leave with a bang, rebel and get a nose ring and go to real college: stuff that most of us kinda accept our kids will do, but is serious trouble in Duggarland. The rest might drift away though. Most fundie kids seem to do it eventually.

[JenniferJuniper]

My money is on one of the boys, simply because it would be easier.

Josiah is the most likely to be first (and no, not because I think he's gay). Just listening to him on some older 17 Kids episodes when he did a lot of the voice-over commentary (not just talking heads), it's clear he was bright, articulate kid. He’s also shown little interest in doing the sorts of grunge work John and Joe do (he once expressed some fear about leaving childhood behind and the work that awaited him. I was surprised the comment got past Jim Bob‘s censorship.)

And finally, we know he has some degree of a rebellious streak. He actually walked off camera during Michelle's big J20 announcement to the family. So if it is a boy, he's probably the oldest logical choice.

With that said, however, I've always found John David to be somewhat of a mystery. He usually comes off as a quiet, aw-shucks country bumpkin but there could be more lurking there. Hard to tell.

[bubbabearzle]

From your keyboard to the Flying Spaghetti Monster's ears. Hmm, does the Flying Spaghetti Monster have ears?

Not sure, but he does have a divine noodly appendage :lol:

[fundyfunland]

Black Sheep: John David, Jana,Jessa, Jinger, Josiah, Joy, Johanna

Cool Aid: Josh, Jill

Hard to really tell, not everyone gets enough screen time, howlers young but will likely drink the cool aid

I think Jessa & Jinger have completely bathed in the kool-aid for the past couple of years. I used to have hope for them, but they've both turrned into ATI princesses. I don't see either of them leaving.

How the Kellers deal with their black sheep in the next few years may have an impact on who ends up leaving, if anyone does. If the Duggar kids see that the Kellers are still completely shunning their wayward kids, that might serve as enough of a warning to any Duggar thinking about leaving. The thought of cutting all ties with their parents in order to be independent, might be too much for them to give up.

[valsa]

I don't know why everyone thinks Jill is the one drinking the Kool-Aid, simply because she says what's expected of her. She's also given evidence for being a truly compassionate person. People like that aren't generally content with lipservice, do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do hypocrisy that so many fundies have. Because of her relative innocence and big heart she's all the more likely to be disillusioned someday and leave. Unlike Jessa, for example, who is something of a princess for a fundie. Jill might not be the first to leave, but can we really imagine her shunning one of her siblings if they do? And then that sets up an internal conflict.

I don't agree at all. Jill reminds me of the type of person who follows the rules of whatever culture she's in and deeply internalizes its values. I could see Jill, in ten years, telling some poor fundie SAHM friend of her's whose husband is cheating on her that she just needs to submit more and keep sweet better. While Jill may be compassionate, she also seems to sincerely believe what she's been taught and will use that compassion to guide people via those morals. In the above example, she'll feel bad for her friend who is being cheated on but she'll approach it within the confines of her beliefs (her friend can't divorce and that if her husband is a godly man he probably wouldn't have cheated if she were a better wife)

I think the aggression she gets from her siblings is probably a reflection of that. I can see her as a definite tattle-tale if someone does something not Gothard-approved. People like her won't tell on you just to get you in trouble, they'll do it because they genuinely believe breaking the rules will harm you (think Hermione from the first Harry Potter book)

[koolmom]

When trying to analyze or second-guess a person's actions re a move of this manner, one has to take into consideration many variables that may or may not come into play during a situation that, in regular everyday circumstances, may not occur to said person. One question that needs to be asked of any of the Duggar kids is, which one of these kids could, under certain circumstances, possibly instantaneously think on their feet if the situation presented itself?

The reason I'm asking this in this manner is because I escaped from my abusive, controlling home largely because a situation presented itself, and had I NOT thought on my feet at that moment, I might have never left. I was already at work one day (yes, I actually got to work), and I got a phone call to interview for another job. Had I gotten that fateful call at home, I probably wouldn't have gone forward with leaving my home at all. Once I'd told the new employer I'd accepted the job (over the phone), within seconds, I already asked them if I could come in the day after they asked me "because I was in the middle of moving", which technically, I wasn't, but because I'd suddenly been handed a "Get Out of My Abusive Home Card" per se, I realized this would be my ticket out. Previously, I'd figured in order to make a successful escape from my home, I'd have to have another job where I couldn't be found by my family. So one might think that any of these kids could do that if they saw a chance to leave when the moment occured, just as I did.

So, if you examine this from that aspect, which one of the Duggars' COULD possibly make a snap decision that could mean a "make or break" situation?

[fundyfunland]

So, if you examine this from that aspect, which one of the Duggars' COULD possibly make a snap decision that could mean a "make or break" situation?

Well from this angle, then it's pretty much impossible for them to escape/live a different lifestyle. This is especially true for the girls who aren't allowed to be alone outside the home really, and definitely aren't able to have jobs. I think some of the kids are able to think quickly on their feet, but I doubt they'd have an opportunity like that, present itself in order to make a quick split.

If any kid goes at all, I'm guessing it'll either be a "fuck you all, I'm outta here" moment ((door slams)), or a slow move into fundielite-dom, which is more likely the case, with say Joy, Josiah or Hannie.

[FrancineFishpaw]

Josh will be so outta there as soon as reality hits--that eebil reality in which he is working at a sucky job with 18 wailing kids underfoot and Anna's stomach looks like the Mississippi river delta from all the stretch marks. He buys into the life because it gets him what he wants, but he'll be losing his religion if it ever stops paying off.

This. Josh has gotten a taste of the good life and its about to come crashing down on him. I think he'll jump over the Non-fundie fence when he realizes he can't eat out 3 meals a day anymore. A tell-all book would keep him afloat for a while seeing that Daddy's gonna pull that car lot out from under him for not obeying. Not sure how Anna will react to that though. She seems to be pretty straight laced and probably already concerned about hubby's relaxed lifestyle.

[gilora]

Jim Bob will probably throw enough money at Josh to keep him in line. Oldest son, first Grandduggar, etc.

Possible ones to leave:

Joy, Josiah, Jinger (if she can leave Jessa), the kid who plays chess (Jeremiah?), Johannah (dragging Justin along)

Digested the Kool Aid:

Jana, Jill, Jessa, Jason

(I have to disagree with those who think Jill could leave. She comes off as a doormat and not too bright. I think she'll be a SAHD until Jim Bob sells her to the highest bidder.)

Wild cards:

John-David, Joseph -- they have the skills and work ethic to survive without Jim Bob's financial assistance.

[bananacat]

I think Josiah will be the first to go, and he is just as likely to get kicked out as to leave on his own. Regardless of his oreintation, he seems to be the most willing older kid to react naturally, and he has brought on Jim Bob's wrath before. And while I do believe that Josh is the favored child and they truly do give a higher status to sons, I also think that in this particular family girls have a higher value because of their work potential. Josh is safe from everything because he's the oldest son and the face of the movement, and John David is just sort of reserved and quiet, but there's no room for a kid who speaks his mind and also doesn't contribute as much to running the household. I can totally see Jim Bob kicking him out for some minor or imagined infraction of the rules, and then using him as an example for the rest. Instead of "Be grateful I don't kick you out at 18 like other parents do", it will be "Be grateful I don't kick you out at 18 like I did to Josiah because you're all sinners like he is and I have the right and power to do it."

[xReems]

Black Sheep: Josiah and Joy, hands down. It seemed at first Josiah might have been drinking the kool aid but after seeing him walk off the camera when Michelle announced her pregnancy to them, maybe he's beginning to realize that this "leave it up to God" is not all it's cracked out to be. Joy, on the other hand, always seemed to have that rebellious spark in her. She doesn't seem like she cares much about this lifestyle nor does it seem like she wants to follow in her family's footsteps with it. On the Duggar forum, there was a poster on there (Sherenee, I believe), who supposedly claimed she was related to the Duggars through her husband's side. Anyways, she said that Joy is the troublemaker in the family and apparently gets in trouble for whatever she does. I would take her claim with a grain of salt as she said that Josh told her he and Anna only want 3 children but whatever.

Kool Aid: Jana, Jill, Jinger, Jessa, and Smuggar (the obvious one).

[FJismyheadship]

I dont know about Jill... she's been a bit defrauding lately. She's gotten gorgeous on us since her braces were removed, and she's been taking her clothes and being far more stylish... and dont forget the skirt that came above her knees (even though she was wearing tights or leggings or something underneath) And who can forget when she straddled the pole and looked comfortable doing it? Jill herself has said she's been looking into more modern styles to see how she can incorporate them into her own style while still being "modest"

[madpsych78]

When did Jill straddle the pole? I don't remember this.

[meow139]

I dont know about Jill... she's been a bit defrauding lately. She's gotten gorgeous on us since her braces were removed, and she's been taking her clothes and being far more stylish... and dont forget the skirt that came above her knees (even though she was wearing tights or leggings or something underneath) And who can forget when she straddled the pole and looked comfortable doing it? Jill herself has said she's been looking into more modern styles to see how she can incorporate them into her own style while still being "modest"

Pole? there was a pole? Pics or it didn't happen. :o