Patriarchy Gone Wrong

[jaelh]

and neglect, in spades.

[jaelh]

This is heartbreaking. How can a church let this go on (much less, the WIFE)?? !

With the wife - this is a pretty typical response to an abusive spouse. Why does she stay could be sung from the heavens by DV workers the world over.

Throw in religious guilt and manipulation...

Dreadful mix.

[Sola]

It's shocking that this can happen, in the most powerful country on earth, in the 21st century.

Whilst I do know about patriarchy and the church influence in the US, as someone living in a godless heathen country I am always astounded how much control over every day life is willingly handed over to churches and pastors in the USA. It is just unheard of here in the UK. The concept of church discipline, outside of the rapidly expanding evangelical churches which are springing in immigrant communities in the UK, is pretty much unheard of. Church discipline here would mean discipline aimed at an errant minister by the higher echelons of the the church. It would certainly not extend to parishioners.

This woman needs to leave this asshole, and fast. He has proven he has no intention of providing for his family, no concern about their wellbeing. This is abuse, plain and simple. She needs to kick his ass out.

[Guest Anonymous]

Unfortunately, legally it can be very difficult to kick a spouse (or other resident) out. I will not presume to give much advice to the OP, except to encourage her to pursue any gov.'t assistance available. Also, a P.O. Box he doesn't know about so that she can receive mail privately would be extremely useful.

[jaelh]

Unfortunately, legally it can be very difficult to kick a spouse (or other resident) out. I will not presume to give much advice to the OP, except to encourage her to pursue any gov.'t assistance available. Also, a P.O. Box he doesn't know about so that she can receive mail privately would be extremely useful.

Here's the thing - she has been pursuing all the assistance she can. But her primary need is alternate accommodation for her and the kids. She's not eligible for a shelter etc..

If anyone in PA has a spare basement/knows someone who does etc.. (I don't know,anything at all...) *that's* what she needs. And it's not what the government can provide.

[demgirl]

Jaelh -- I may know about some resources she may qualify for that she isn't aware of -- I have a binder of them from back in law school when I worked at a family law legal aid type program as a student. Is she closer to Pittsburgh or Philly or is she middle of the state? I don't need an exact location, but a general geographical location would be helpful to narrow down resources. If you know that info, I will go find my binder and see if there are at least some resources for her to call.

I'd love to take in her and the kids. I truly wish I could but unfortunately I doubt a small one bedroom apartment would be enough space. But if I can help her find some resources, I will do all I can in that respect.

[deelaem]

Other people are telling her that she could be homeless in a year if she divorces him.

Essentially, she is homeless now. People who are homeless often make do with shelters such as this barn, and live on one meal a day.

The OP said CPS is aware of the situation. If they are, they're doing a lousy job responding. They should be bringing this family tons of resources to help them out of their situation. Granted, being fundies, they will probably refuse. It's then when you let them know that they could lose their kids if they refuse to provide them with their basic needs. Sheesh, when I worked in child abuse prevention we were held to a standard called Best Practices...I guess these days that isn't the case. Either that or someone's not telling the truth about CPS knowing of this situation.

Those poor children. I hate religion, I hate religion, I hate religion...

[theologygeek]

Jaelh -- I may know about some resources she may qualify for that she isn't aware of -- I have a binder of them from back in law school when I worked at a family law legal aid type program as a student. Is she closer to Pittsburgh or Philly or is she middle of the state? I don't need an exact location, but a general geographical location would be helpful to narrow down resources. If you know that info, I will go find my binder and see if there are at least some resources for her to call.

I'd love to take in her and the kids. I truly wish I could but unfortunately I doubt a small one bedroom apartment would be enough space. But if I can help her find some resources, I will do all I can in that respect.

I've been volunteering at a homeless shelter for years. The State will send women and children into Section 8 housing when the mother applies for emergency housing. Has she gone to the welfare office and applied for emergency housing yet? But she doesn't have to leave. Her husband has to. She can file for divorce. Her husband will be ordered to leave the house. He will also be ordered to pay the mortgage. If he can't afford the mortgage on the house, the judge will order it sold and the two will split the profit. If the house goes into foreclosure, she should wait until the last possible minute to leave. By that time, the State will have found a place for her. He will also have to pay child support or go to jail. A child support advocate will help her through everything. Welfare will also help her because they are not fond of paying when the father should be paying his child support. The State has everything in place for people like her. But she has to go to them and ask. This woman is not ready to divorce him. You can tell if you read between the lines. When she truly can't take it any more, she will divorce.

[theologygeek]

I can't imagine how explaining to my kids they only get one meal a day cause Mommy didn't submit enough to Daddy is somehow BETTER than divorcing the asshole, getting a job, and feeding, sheltering, and clothing those kids right myself...

I would be suicidal if I thought the former was a more "godly" option. Really.

Some people use the Christian card as a crutch when in actuality they have fear of the unknown. Sometimes fear of the unknown is more paralyzing than the hell a person lives in.

[camdendayton]

From the OPer:

For a person who struggles constantly with feeling like I never do enough, I'm never good enough or worthy enough, it's difficult to ask for help. If you saw my post in Bible Issues, this is a big issue for me- believing lies of Satan.

As someone who struggles with self-worth myself I can't imagine having all this "bible based" guilt thrown on top. Poor, poor thing :-(

[Rosa]

Ditto what Jaelh said - this is pure garden-variety abuse, and the only thing "Christian" about it is the extra layer of magical thinking that caused the wife to go through the Gospel steps first thing.

I wonder about her family - a family member of mine kept leaving and then going back, and finally the people she kept going to when she left said, No more. But I wonder if she *did* leave him if her family would let her come stay, if she stopped talking about reconciliation.

[emmiedahl]

Erm, she needs to get a job. I have just as much of a responsibility to provide as my husband does. When it comes to children being fed (and it sounds like this is the situation) both parents have a moral responsibility to make sure it happens.

I know she stated she was disabled. I could prob. get SS for my endocrine problems, they are definitely an infringement on my ability to carry out my normal life, but I don't.

We can't live on $900 a month, so I work. She needs to do the same. I know playing victim is easier than getting a job... but she is really doing the same thing as her husband. I hope someone helps her in the meantime, and I hope she gets on food stamps to at least make sure the kids have minimal food.

[jaelh]

Erm, she needs to get a job. I have just as much of a responsibility to provide as my husband does. When it comes to children being fed (and it sounds like this is the situation) both parents have a moral responsibility to make sure it happens.

I know she stated she was disabled. I could prob. get SS for my endocrine problems, they are definitely an infringement on my ability to carry out my normal life, but I don't.

Severe chronic fatigure and mental health issues. Physically not possible to take on a job - she's tried several times in the past and it's never ended well.

[jaelh]

Ditto what Jaelh said - this is pure garden-variety abuse, and the only thing "Christian" about it is the extra layer of magical thinking that caused the wife to go through the Gospel steps first thing.

I wonder about her family - a family member of mine kept leaving and then going back, and finally the people she kept going to when she left said, No more. But I wonder if she *did* leave him if her family would let her come stay, if she stopped talking about reconciliation.

No - her family has refused. They're also fundie - seperation leads to divorce and all.... Refused to let her stay when she left earlier in the year - can you believe it? I think they took in one of the 4 kids. (While at the same time, have another sister + child living with them).

:angry-banghead:

Sorry. That smiley about sums up how I feel about the various people in her immediate physical life.

It's straight up abuse, no question. She read "Why does he do that?" and she recommends now, after seeing so much truth in it. It's an espcially bad situation for the kids. They need out - and two learning disabled older pre-teen boys in rural PA aren't going to be ... well, particually popular/easy foster care placements. They need her to get out, to get them out.

[apple1]

Severe chronic fatigure and mental health issues. Physically not possible to take on a job - she's tried several times in the past and it's never ended well.

Removed from the stress of this disastrous situation, and with a roof over her head and a reasonable diet, the chronic fatigue might resolve. And many mental health issues respond to medication and counseling.

[Rosa]

I am so angry at the whole situation. I really hope this anti-divorce thing is turning around, because it causes so much suffering. I told you all I heard a radio preacher telling a caller that if her husband broke his "covernant" he'd already divorced her and she was just doing the legal part, right?

One plus for the Pearls/Anasts - if they refuse to get legally married, they only have one set of ridiculous rules they have to follow. If a shacked up Pearl child decides to leave her lord & headship she can just go.

[theologygeek]

Removed from the stress of this disastrous situation, and with a roof over her head and a reasonable diet, the chronic fatigue might resolve. And many mental health issues respond to medication and counseling.

That's true. If she is not fueling her body with a proper diet, she will always feel tired and weak.

[emmiedahl]

I think perhaps the dad has mental health issues as well, but no one (except his church) is giving him a get-out-of-parenting-free card. It's unfortunate, but someone needs to support those kids. It's a challenge managing mental illness and a family, but you can't make the children do without.

I feel bad for this woman, but it sounds like she shares a lot of the blame. From other threads on FJ, it sounds like a lot of people here have chronic health issues and yet we keep it together. I think if she left the stressful situation she'd be better able to manage. Also, taking care of multiple children is simply exhausting. When I work outside the home, it feels like a break.

[Austin]

I feel bad for this woman, but it sounds like she shares a lot of the blame. From other threads on FJ, it sounds like a lot of people here have chronic health issues and yet we keep it together. I think if she left the stressful situation she'd be better able to manage. Also, taking care of multiple children is simply exhausting. When I work outside the home, it feels like a break.

This is a bit O/T, but I think you bring up a good point, one that I've been pondering a lot lately. Not necessarily directed at this woman, but at the fundie wives in bad situations generally.

I think we often feel a great deal of sympathy for these women. I know I do. And to some degree, rightly so. After all, many have been raised with no other context or worldview beyond patriarchy and fundamentalism. But my sympathy, to an extent, tends to dry up when the children are truly suffering.

I try to place myself in their shoes, but fail to some degree because I just don't think there is anything on earth or in heaven that could convince me to stay in a situation where my children were suffering. Maybe these women would say that I don't have enough faith in God (and they'd be right) and that if I had enough faith, I would just trust God to fix things. Well, God gave us abilities and eyes and ears and a brain capable of executive functioning, and there's a part of me (the judgmental part, admittedly) that thinks they're kind of lousy mothers if they can't be convinced to protect their children's well-being first and foremost. Given their belief in God, who do they think gave them their maternal instinct to protect and nurture in the first place that at some level, that they seem to abdicate?

I'm sure there is a lot of learned helplessness in play in these situations, and I realize that tends to paralyze and inhibit the ability to make plans and get out. I'm not condemning them outright, but I do sometimes think they are let off the hook because they are fundie women. They are adults, and mothers, and need to be held responsible for the treatment of their children.

[Effie]

It's shocking that this can happen, in the most powerful country on earth, in the 21st century.

I don't find it to be shocking. Yes, it's a very powerful country, but it doesn't mean it's in any way a just country where the poor and sick get the help they need. The poverty rate in U.S. is remarkably high for a developed nation. The social welfare sucks over there. So I guess the "power" has had its price. Their own citizens have paid the price. If people get help or not depends a lot on other people's good will. As far as I have understood it's the churches' responsibility or the responsibility of some kind of voluntary organization. Not so much the government's responsibility. What kind of system is that? Seriously what do you pay taxes for over there? Is the school free at least? Does college cost?

Well, I don't like the American system. I'm coming from a social welfare state in northern Europe, where all students get paid 430 dollars each month for six years to study at college (one of many social benefits). The taxes here are higher than average, but taxes lead to a lot of social benefits.

[emmiedahl]

Well, I don't like the American system. I'm coming from a social welfare state in northern Europe, where all students get paid 430 dollars each month for six years to study at college (one of many social benefits). The taxes here are higher than average, but taxes lead to a lot of social benefits.

I agree that there are problems with American social systems, but I don't think they are the cause of this problem. If you read the thread, the woman's husband has a decent income and a large amount of assets. He just refuses to use them to support his family. That's probably why she cannot get government help while she is with him. Food stamps and other programs are not intended for people who have the means, but refuse to spend money on food. If she leaves him, she'll be eligible for free food, low cost housing, free daycare, and free college. She wants a way to get those things while still with him. She wants the government to finance her shitty marriage.

[treemom]

As I often do, I agree with Austin. And I think some of the questions being asked her are good ones.

Really at this point, while I feel sympathy for the mother the kids are being terribly neglected. They need out now, with or without momma. If I knew more I would call CPS.

[emmiedahl]

I really, really agree Treemom. The mom said that CPS was involved at some point and that they did not take action because she was at a friend's house away from the husband at the time. She also said that when people give her money, the husband takes it from her and spends it. If the kids are doing without basic needs so the dad can have more pocket money, CPS intervention is absolutely necessary.

Honestly, she needs to leave him. I mean, really. This is one of my big issues with Patriarchy. They create a system in which both parents have clear responsibilities, but they have no accountability when the dad/husband is not living up to his part of the bargain.

[Rosa]

She has my sympathy because I'm way over here (and that's why I wish the social welfare system was better, so it wasn't so dependent on personal sympathy*). Dealing with situations like this in person is really frustrating because the person thinks of themselves as a rational adult, not a trapped and damaged one, and if it's someone I know I tend to think of it that way too and think "why doesn't she just do X". That's why eventually my family said to my abused woman relative - I'm not helping you any more, you just go back to him and waste all my time and energy and act like I'm trying to ruin your marriage afterward. (but when she really did leave him, on her own, the help poured in).

The thing is - if she was raised by fundamentalists, she was primed to accept exactly this kind of abuse. And receiving abuse lowers your ability to cope - it affects cognition, health, confidence, everything. People need a safe place to heal before you can really expect growth or progress from them. Thinking about that is an almost impossible way to conduct a personal relationship, or give personal help, because it's tremendously insulting, but if you look at it from the outside you can see that it's true.

I know a lot of FJers have come out of terrible abuse on their own or with minimal help, and that's really heroically admirable - but not everyone is capable of it. Whether it's innate, or because of other resilience factors, or whatever, it's demonstrably true. It's easy to think "I did it, so she could" - but she might really not be able to, and she's hardly going to recognize that and tell anybody.

*specifically, with the infuriating and unhelped/unhelpful addicts in my family, I wish there were a better social safety net so that they can get help without me ever having to deal with them again. Because I have a lifetime of scars from it and I am done.

[jaelh]

I know a lot of FJers have come out of terrible abuse on their own or with minimal help, and that's really heroically admirable - but not everyone is capable of it. Whether it's innate, or because of other resilience factors, or whatever, it's demonstrably true. It's easy to think "I did it, so she could" - but she might really not be able to, and she's hardly going to recognize that and tell anybody.

Austin, I think you make a very important point when you observe that the women in these situation hold a degree of responsibility for their own situations. They do - no question. But what that actually means, I think, is something different from what the word responsibility implies.

As Rosa points out, many are primed to be so treated from birth.

But I think the rest of the quote above is so incredible important.. In the same way that some children are born into wealthy families, some poor etc.. everyone is born with a different capacity to cope: mental and physical health, a resilient outlook, the capacity for enormous amounts of hard work are as much the accident of ones birth as they are personal virtues.

It's true to say - you bear some responsibility for your own situation, rather as it is fair to say to the 20 year old drug addicted prostitute that she is responsible for hers. But, if it's the only life you've ever known, and you have never been equipped with the tools to leave it, or exist in a different world I think we can all appreciate that the responsibility to change your situation is a much heavier burden than many of us have ever had to bear - esp when you factor in medical and mental health issues.

Emmie - I want to gently suggest to you that, while yes, you are managing poverty, a chronic illness and premedical: you're pretty damn exceptional. There aren't a whole lot of people that could manage what you do - not because they're lazy, or not taking responsibility, but because it seems (to me) like you hit that innate personal jackpot - the one that gave you the capacity to be the person that you are. It's as much luck as it is a cultivated capacity. All parents note that some children have more drive than others; some are 'wilful', others are docile etc.. These attributes - while when cultivated can be virtues - aren't inherently virtuous. If you're lucky enough to be a driven person, then no matter where you are on the food chain that is society, you will be better able to tackle challenges. And yes - an inherent predisposition doesn't mean you will act a certain way, but sure makes acting that way much, much, much easier.

As re: the children need out. Damn straight. And here's the thing - it's not like she's priming to leave because she's *not* aware of this; Michele is. It's *because* of the children she's both remained and now is leaving. It's no in spite, or in ignorance of the children's needs. The kids are her whole life. It's not like she's missed it. Things have gotten much worse on a physical level in the past about 2 years. It's not like it's been like this forever - the emotional abuse, yes - but the lack of heat? That started last winter. Honestly - she wants out. She wants a better life for her kids. She knows this isn't right. But - other than suggesting she gets a job (not helpful, even with physical issues there is the question of where she is, many miles from nowhere, something I think that's been large part of the issue) - what does she do to make it better for the kids?

Effie: I'm with you 100% with the economic support. Emmie, you're right in that the lack of support didn't get her to this place - but... it's what's stopping her getting out. It's all well and good to say, take responsibility, but what does that look like? Here, a single parent gets several hundred dollars a fortnight + an allowance per child + assistance with rent (all income tested). Were that support available to her, she could leave. And yes, as always, the link between abuse and homelessness is high here as well - but I'd put money on it being lower than the US once the immediate departure is made, being able to access an income right away, however small, makes leaving an abusive spouse a whole different ball game to walking out without anything.