"Working mothers choose to work--they don't have to"

[desertvixen]

Oh, for fuck's sake: traditionalchristianity.wordpress.com/2011/12/04/how-working-women-made-us-poor/ (the Alte link above)

I like Jamila, and this guy (Stuki) has issues:

But rather that when a woman moves from being a homemaker to a paid worker, someone else have to do the work she did as a homemaker.

Unless he's talking about teaching, nursing, etc, he's full of it. Most of the working women I know do their own homemaker work on top of it. Second shift, perhaps they have heard of it?

So, it’s not women working outside the home per se that is some sort of universal bad. Some women have always done this; if their husband got sick or injured, if they were unmarried, or if her and her husband were simply so destitute they had no other choice. But what is new, is the idea that “the governmentâ€, as always shorthand for someone else, should facilitate the movement of women from one role (homemaker) to another (labor force participant.)

Wait, don't turn the channel, it gets better!

Bring the country back to it’s civilized roots (meaning get rid of each and every government program or regulation that was not in place by the time Jefferson was president, save for emancipation of slaves), and things will sort themselves out just fine.

And women are displacing men in all the fields, like teaching.

Anyway, here's my actual question: why, in all of these discussions about how working women are unmaking civilization as we know it and wrecking our economy, why is there never any discussion of the employers who are paying women less to do men's jobs?

And wow, pass me some of whatever Alte is drinking, because it must be GOOD (from the comments):

Because women are about to be laid off in enormous numbers from government and administrative jobs, which will quickly show that women’s degrees < men's degrees, by flipping the current unemployment ratio on its head.

This will be largely irrelevant, anyway. You can get women to work at hospitals and schools “being nurturing†for free. The paid work will be done by men and volunteering will return en mass. It was the mixing of the two aspects which gave women a slight edge for a while.

[JesusFightClub]

Because completely untrained volunteers will be so useful in a school or a hospital, and not get in the way at all. Oh, I forgot, possessing tits and a vagina give you supernatural powers of healing and empathy. Woman is the sparkly unicorn of the world.

As for the degree/gov't job thing, I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. I'm slowly and agonisingly making my way through the comments but they all read like parody to me. Aside from Jamila's, but she is fighting a lonely battle against the forces of stupid.

[desertvixen]

As for the degree/gov't job thing, I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

It sounds like she thinks they will all get dropped and they'll keep the men. Why, I have no fucking idea.

They are kind of a parody, but they're stuck on believing what they want to believe. I'd love to get into some of these subsidized benefits for working mothers, because again, full of it. We have no universal maternity benefits, no universal prenatal care, no requirement that employers hold your job, limited access to subsidized quality daycare (like I said, my awesome daycare situation which IS partially subsidized by the military, costs me just shy of $10K year - essentially all my child support from my ex)... but we're stealing.

[JesusFightClub]

OHGODOHGOD THE STUPID

As ye ken weel, I'm a union rep in the public sector. None of what Alte and chums say makes the slightest bit of sense.

"No employer wants part time staff"? Tell that to our management. They love the idea of a part time workforce. Taken on for projects and bits and pieces when needed, much cheaper, stood down at quiet times, what's not to like? Keep key staff (both female and male) on full time hours, and draft in the others as and when. FFS it's not rocket science that they would go for that. And it's nothing to do with some kind of evil creeping woman nits either because that would disproportionately affect the more "technical" areas of work, which have less women. You can bet unit head will not be losing his PA to part time hours any time soon.

Oh yeah, and I suppose by that argument as well being a security guard must be the most feminised profession ever. I was one and I was on a zero hour contract, so I could work solidly for a week and then be off roster for a week. It would depend who was on roster, priorities, locations and a whole bunch of other shit, as well as UK and EU directives. All my chain of command was male as were most of my coworkers. So there was no exertion of wicked vag power going on there.

Male teachers never complain? Has that poster ever met any?

Also, see the "destroy the public sector it is bloated and ebil" thing? Aye, go ahead, do that and see huge chunks of the private sector fail. Anecdote - I have a bad leg and got a taxi once cos it was hurting too much to walk/catch a crowded bus and have to stand. Fell into conversation with the taxi driver. On learning where I work he said "Why did you lot drop the contracts you had with us?" "To save money, y'know, cutbacks". "Well I wish you bloody hadn't. Drivers who did your regular routes are really struggling." Multiply this by a million, I can list the companies who would fail easily even if you just did away with my obscure workplace. Whether one likes this state of affairs or not, it is what it is.

[liltwinstar]

Also, in the US, employers often don't offer medical insurance to part time workers. The companies that do (Starbucks, for example) are super unusual and lauded.

So saying that all companies don't want to hire PT people is bullshit.

[Austin]

But rather that when a woman moves from being a homemaker to a paid worker, someone else have to do the work she did as a homemaker.

:shock:

Who would that be? Because that person never showed up here. . .

[Austin]

But even if she did choose to work so she could travel, save aggressively, and donate to charities wouldn't make her selfish.

Working for money doesn't make anyone selfish. And if it did why aren't Dads judged for 'choosing' to work.

Exactly. Nobody ever asks a man about "choosing" to work, nor does he ever need to justify it to anyone. It is one of the many markers, in my mind, of the inequality that still exists.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Exactly. Nobody ever asks a man about "choosing" to work, nor does he ever need to justify it to anyone. It is one of the many markers, in my mind, of the inequality that still exists.

Absolutely. No one should have to justify the ~choice~ to work.

[Feberin]

:shock:

Who would that be? Because that person never showed up here. . .

This makes me laugh since my aunt who is a SAHM has a maid that comes a couple days a week to help her clean and a babysitter so she can have "me time". She's the only person I know with a maid yet she doesn't work.

[Wolfie]

And I used a steam canner so its not like it was a huge pot

OT, but was it a pressure canner or a steam canner made to replace a water bath? The USDA has said that the steam canners used to replace water bath canners aren't safe. (And I am thinking it is the second, because my pressure canner is about as big as my water bath canner)

[ilovetchotchkes]

OT, but was it a pressure canner or a steam canner made to replace a water bath? The USDA has said that the steam canners used to replace water bath canners aren't safe. (And I am thinking it is the second, because my pressure canner is about as big as my water bath canner)

yeah. I asked my mom about it, (I stole hers as she no longer has time to can ) and her response was "You never died in the 15 years I canned stuff with it, just be careful, make sure the stuff is hot packed, and it stays in there for like 6-7 minutes past the water bath time, make sure all your jars are sanitized and washed before you go and you'll be fine. " ( I don't do ANY low acid foods, everything I did was high acid, anything low acid got frozen instead, i may be crazy but I ain't stupid)

I have a big ass water bath canner that I use every passover to kasher my dishes (the Reform way ! FTW) and it was just too much of a PITA to fill - I'd have to somehow get it from sink to stove, and I've got a LOT of back problems.

edited for spelling fail

[treemom]

Treemom, I think that a lot of the problem is that when we were growing up there were some truely terrible daycare centers out there. I was sexually assulted by another child at my daycare center, and the adults did nothing to stop it. Come to find out, the little boy who abused me was being abused by his father (not too shocking) but his mother was one of the day care workers!

I think that some people get hung up on the terrible situations and vow to never let their child experience such horror, without realizing that the vast, vast majorities of child care centers are NOT horrible at all. So the judgement of other women choosing to work comes in when they think "How could anyone WANT to send their child to such a horrible place...they must be terrible mothers!" It's all about a skewed perspective about what's really out there in terms of childcare.

And still, I wasn't aware that choosing to work when it provides more than just the basics was something bad.

[treemom]

And just to be clear, i work because I don't see the point for me personally in not working, I never planned to homeschool and being a house wife ain't my thing, I like money. I like what the extra salary does for us.

And I don't feel guilty because I don't think my 11 year old is missing out by not having me at home during the 8:30 to 4:30 (and often later since there is always something going on at school) hours he is in school.

[Wolfie]

yeah. I asked my mom about it, (I stole hers as she no longer has time to can ) and her response was "You never died in the 15 years I canned stuff with it, just be careful, make sure the stuff is hot packed, and it stays in there for like 6-7 minutes past the water bath time, make sure all your jars are sanitized and washed before you go and you'll be fine. " ( I don't do ANY low acid foods, everything I did was high acid, anything low acid got frozen instead, i may be crazy but I ain't stupid)

I have a big ass water bath canner that I use every passover to kasher my dishes (the Reform way ! FTW) and it was just too much of a PITA to fill - I'd have to somehow get it from sink to stove, and I've got a LOT of back problems.

edited for spelling fail

Yeah, I didn't die from the wax topped jams my mom made, but we had a lot more spoil than I have with the waterbath. I just figure that if there is a safer way, I don't want to subject myself or my family to any botulism. I often use a pitcher from my sink to fill my waterbath canner, because it does kill your back to carry it back and forth. (I put a little in it at the sink, then the rest when it's on the stove.)

Yes, I only do low acid in my pressure canner. I wouldn't do it in the water bath either. It is so nice to be able to grab a jar of stock out of the cabinet to make some soup when I'm not feeling good.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Yeah, I didn't die from the wax topped jams my mom made, but we had a lot more spoil than I have with the waterbath. I just figure that if there is a safer way, I don't want to subject myself or my family to any botulism. I often use a pitcher from my sink to fill my waterbath canner, because it does kill your back to carry it back and forth. (I put a little in it at the sink, then the rest when it's on the stove.)

Yes, I only do low acid in my pressure canner. I wouldn't do it in the water bath either. It is so nice to be able to grab a jar of stock out of the cabinet to make some soup when I'm not feeling good.

Oh yeah, and I check, smell, and look to see if there is spoilage before I even use the food!

[Rosa]

Treemom, I think that a lot of the problem is that when we were growing up there were some truely terrible daycare centers out there. I was sexually assulted by another child at my daycare center, and the adults did nothing to stop it. Come to find out, the little boy who abused me was being abused by his father (not too shocking) but his mother was one of the day care workers!

Maybe it's just because I don't remember the '50s, but sometimes I think the '70s/'80s were the absolute nadir of child raising. It was just completely devalued on every side, with people realizing that the '50s ideal wasn't really necessary but not knowing what to replace it with, so there was a lot of not-so-benign neglect and also the backlash against feminism led to a subset of families getting super strict.

I mean, I read a lot of cult-childhood memoirs, and on the one side you have the "kids should be free! Work it out yourself! No rules, follow your inner light!" folks, which is destructive and leaves kids open to really horrific abuse and horizontal aggression among themselves. On the other side, you have the "beat the devil out of them" folks, who get more and more extreme as the culture moves away from them - homeschooling blossoms among fundies in that time period - and in the middle you have "the kids are alright" kind of ignore-them-and-things-will be fine, with latchkey kids and tv-and-microwave evenings and the horrible "one week at mom's and one week at dad's" custody arrangements.

We complain a lot about helicopter parenting and mommy wars and competitive motherhood, but it seems like backlash against that period, when a lot of us were little kids.

(Though maybe it wasn't really the nadir. A lot of stuff that had been going on all along - like sexual abuse, serial killers, and alcohol/drug addiction - just got dragged out into the light.)

[desertvixen]

Austin - I know, right! Whoever they are, they are WAY overdue here.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Ain't it fun when people without brains make declarations about getting rid of every government program that didn't exist when Jefferson was president?

I'm not even American, but I can think of a few programs that might be missed.

Do Christians not drive anywhere? The Interstate system didn't exist in Jefferson's day.

Secure passports? Not really.

Drivers' licenses and traffic laws - there were none.

Drug laws? Not really - cocaine was a popular pick-me-up at one point.

Air traffic controllers? Didn't exist. I guess we can either go back to having no airplanes or having them all fly into each other.

Child labor laws? Nah, more families would be QF if the kids would support the family.

Zoning by-laws? No, people like living next to slaughterhouses and toxic waste dumps.

Food safety regulations? Hey, good Christians think that salmonella and botulism are a sign of liberty.

[Wolfie]

Ain't it fun when people without brains make declarations about getting rid of every government program that didn't exist when Jefferson was president?

I'm not even American, but I can think of a few programs that might be missed.

Do Christians not drive anywhere? The Interstate system didn't exist in Jefferson's day.

Secure passports? Not really.

Drivers' licenses and traffic laws - there were none.

Drug laws? Not really - cocaine was a popular pick-me-up at one point.

Air traffic controllers? Didn't exist. I guess we can either go back to having no airplanes or having them all fly into each other.

Child labor laws? Nah, more families would be QF if the kids would support the family.

Zoning by-laws? No, people like living next to slaughterhouses and toxic waste dumps.

Food safety regulations? Hey, good Christians think that salmonella and botulism are a sign of liberty.

Not to mention that abortion was legal (The first backlash against dr assisted abortions was that too many people were dying from them.) and it was common to see advertisments for "medications" to "Stop the blocked menses."

[Mama Mia]

Don't forget the whole 'women getting to vote' thing that didn't come about until 1920 .. getting rid of that would be a big plus for these folks.

[galaxygirl]

People over here tend to tell everyone "Private daycare, if anything!! Not ever a public daycare!"

Yeah right. I sure would chose

- a single person who could get sick

- with no professional training (it's an apprenticeship here that you need to have in order to work in a public daycare)

- in a private, probably not very child- appropriate environment

- with no supervision

over a public daycare with usually at least 5 people who've had professional training, public access, an environment that is made for children, fixed schedules.

Yeah, right.

I feel very lucky because my MIL will be taking care of our daughter(who did finally decide to come out) four days a week. The other three days it will be me home one day, my husband home one day and we'll both be home the last day. The best part of this arrangement is that my MIL is a nurse in the hospital here in town with about 20 years of experience.

But rather that when a woman moves from being a homemaker to a paid worker, someone else have to do the work she did as a homemaker.

Funny thing, my husband does more housework than I do. Voluntarily.