"Working mothers choose to work--they don't have to"

[Petals]

Yes, there are a lot of mothers who work because they have to. But, there are also mothers who work because they choose to! And I have absolutely no problem with that. My mom got a degree and began working when I was little, and I went to daycare. I loved daycare! I had great friends, we put on performances, we played on the playground, ate awesome tuna casserole for lunch, etc. For my mom (not for every mom), I think her education and work was an important and fulfilling part of her, and I can't imagine her without it. I'm happy she raised me the way she did.

[jenny_islander]

My sister-in-law went back to work because she was a much nicer mommy if she spent part of the day talking to grown-ups instead of her three small kids. Now they're all in college and she is still working because the economy is so bad. And she has seniority and benefits.

[CanticleoftheTurning]

All the people who have been mentioning child care as being an awesome thing--see, I grew up thinking child care is where kids go get sick and ignored for $$$, and where kids would learn bad values away from their parents, etc etc etc. Nothing but bad stories.

Even though I'm recovering from growing up fundie-ish, I still have a hard time coming to terms that child care (as in, not a babysitter but more of a group environment) is an acceptable alternative to staying at home until all the kids enter kindergarten. DH and I aren't planning on having kids for a few more years anyway until we're more financially secure, but I'm still trying to brace myself for working motherhood. (We would need two incomes to support a family where we live. We don't have or need a car thanks to pub transit, but the tradeoff is real estate $$ for the square footage).

So far I can understand putting a 2+ year old in child care, but younger than that scares me. I can understand a 6+ month old with a babysitter, but younger than that still scares me.

Does anyone have some words of wisdom or experience with why child care is actually pretty awesome (and not as evil as my parents made it out to be)?

[Wolfie]

I know a girl who's a doctor, she finished med school, then decided she'd rather work at a vegan supermarket and become a speaker for veganism. She's very happy that way and I think she contributes more to society than she would as an unhappy doctor.

I have to disagree that she contributes more to society, but I think if a person can make a go of it, they should do what they want. However, lots of people, including the couple who lost the house I now own, will just quit their jobs if they don't like them, then financial disaster happens.

My sister chooses to work, my aunt didn't choose, but she had to as a single mother. Howver, my sister feels a lot safer working in case something should happen to her husband or his job. Her child is in a wonderful daycare.

[emmiedahl]

Well, if you put your child in a center, there is a lot of supervision of employees, which is why I prefer them to a home daycare. Mine had windows between the rooms and also security cameras that were watched a lot of the time. Abuse is not likely or even possible in a good childcare situation without massive conspiracies. My daughter's 1 yo class had 1 teacher for every 4 children. They had some amazing toys and a really great schedule that included time outside, music time, art time, free time etc. The teachers had bachelor's degrees.

The kids not only receive roughly the same amount of love and care from their teachers (I mean, moms have to do stuff besides parenting, right? so we are not focused on baby all the time either), they learn social skills and cooperative behaviors at an earlier age. Also, I think that the daycare exposed my child to more variety just because my house is not planned like a daycare. That is, the schedule revolves around the family, not around the baby.

I personally would rather be home with children under the age of 2, but I don't think there is a huge benefit. And if you have an unhappy or negligent parent, daycare can actually be better than mommy care.

[snarkbillie]

All the people who have been mentioning child care as being an awesome thing--see, I grew up thinking child care is where kids go get sick and ignored for $$$, and where kids would learn bad values away from their parents, etc etc etc. Nothing but bad stories.

Even though I'm recovering from growing up fundie-ish, I still have a hard time coming to terms that child care (as in, not a babysitter but more of a group environment) is an acceptable alternative to staying at home until all the kids enter kindergarten. DH and I aren't planning on having kids for a few more years anyway until we're more financially secure, but I'm still trying to brace myself for working motherhood. (We would need two incomes to support a family where we live. We don't have or need a car thanks to pub transit, but the tradeoff is real estate $$ for the square footage).

So far I can understand putting a 2+ year old in child care, but younger than that scares me. I can understand a 6+ month old with a babysitter, but younger than that still scares me.

Does anyone have some words of wisdom or experience with why child care is actually pretty awesome (and not as evil as my parents made it out to be)?

I worked at mother's day out for a few years taking care of infants to 3 year olds. Not at the same time! LOL I followed them up. When they were infants I took care of them, when they turned 1 I took over that class, etc. I loved each of the kids. I didn't just take care of them I cared for them. I taught them things and played with them and cared for them as if they were my own. Burn outs just don't last very long in childcare. It doesn't pay enough to put up with if you don't really love it. Couple that with new laws that require childcare to be licensed which means in a lot of places the people working there have to have degrees in early childhood education...which is not something you pay for and work towards unless you want to be around kids all day.

I haven't ever gone to daycare but I've worked at one and been a SAHM and the kids got comparable care both places.

You really have to shop around. Some daycares are awesome and some suck. Go with your gut.

[CanticleoftheTurning]

Thanks, emmiedahl and snarkbillie for sharing your experiences! There are probably a gazillion licensed day care facilities within a mile from my apt, but I haven't really looked at them seriously, yet. Probably whenever we're ready to try, I'll be researching child care facilities like crazy, ha.

That's a good point about child care vs. home based day care. Actual child care facilities would have far more rules and regulations compared to that. I'm still iffy about the under 2 year old child care, but if DH and I found an excellent center, that would definitely assuage my fears. Actually, ideally I'd love it if my MIL lived in the same town because she said before that she would love to watch her future grandkids, but they live two states away.

snarkbillie, I love that you were able to follow the kids up as they went to different levels--I bet that was so helpful in keeping the change manageable for the children so they wouldn't have to get used to a new caregiver every time they moved to a different age group. I will have to keep that in mind when i research child care.

[ellerigby]

Does anyone have some words of wisdom or experience with why child care is actually pretty awesome (and not as evil as my parents made it out to be)?

I was a day care baby and loved it. My parents are both architects and my mom went back to work very quickly after I was born, so I was in day care full time until I started school (and then I was in a lot of after school activities and sports- which were great experiences). They made sacrifices for each other's careers and shared the housework and childcare- an arrangement I intend to replicate when my husband and I have children (a few years away off).

I definitely believe I was very lucky growing up. I'm 26 now and have a very close relationship with my family. I never felt neglected because my mom worked- I didn't know anything else! My brother and I are both independent, motivated, and very social, and I think that my mom's career played a big part in shaping us into the hardcore feminists that we are now.

I also have spent the last several years volunteering once a week at the daycare at shelter for victims of domestic violence (the day care gives residents the opportunity to interview for jobs, work jobs once they have them, and get back on their feet). Despite the low funding for the shelter, those kids are LOVED. They are in small groups with loving teachers who play with them, read to them, cuddle them, and see that they are well fed and educated. I think some day cares aren't as good, but there are many that are wonderful places.

[adidas]

I can't remember if it's a book or article, but I read it a while back - it explains why it's not a choice but a necessity for the majority of women to work these days.

Back when we were kids, mortgage, groceries bills etc were a certain percentage of the average income earner's wage. That's just how it was. If the main income earner (usually the man) lost his job, the woman was the safety net and could go and earn money while he searched for work.

In the current financial situation, the mortgage, groceries bills etc are much more than the average income earner's wage. I saw statistics recently and I'm guessing because I didn't memorise them, but you get the general idea - incomes have doubled since the 1970s when we were growing up, but the cost of living has gone up five times the amount it used to be.

So lucky us. MOST of us don't have the choice. We HAVE to work. And there is no safety net - if someone loses their job, the mortgage doesn't get paid.

[Feberin]

I recently quit working once we finally got to a place where my husband had some decent job security. Before we were going month to month with him having a job or not. There was no way I was quitting and giving up my health insurance and income so that I could be at home when his job situation was so unstable. But finally things have gotten better and so I've stopped working. We won't be saving as much but 1/2 my income went to pay for not so great daycare. Once our children are in school I plan to return to work. While we might not be putting away as much for college as I would like we are saving for it (we put away $100 a month). I do sub at the library I worked on nights and weekends so I keep a food in the door for when I want to go back to work. I have a BS degree in Early Childhood Education so I figure I could easily take in a couple extra kids or get a job at daycare if money became tight.

[VeraAnne]

Yes on the boom and bust cycle. Want to recommend an AWESOME youtube video that I dearly love, but unfortunately very little people think is awesome (at least they don't think it's as uber awesome as I think, guess I am a little bit of a geek here, but it's very educational!):

I love this video. I try to get everyone to watch it.

[ellerigby]

:clap: I agree, fathers never have to make "excuses" for working, yet the idea that a woman might work in order to keep a roof over their child's head, food in their bellies, and proper medical care through insurance is somehow considered evil. With the recession, sometimes those who started out with two incomes managed to keep their homes, while a single-income household whose wage earner got laid off ended up losing their house in foreclosure.

Um, yeah, THIS. I have a deep respect for SAHMs, but that is not the right choice for everyone (if you are fortunate enough to have that be a choice...).

After I got married (this past summer), plenty of people asked me why I was still planning on finishing my last year of law school and lining up a government job, since he could technically support us (though not really with my student loans...). I usually didn't know what to say, since believe in the concept of "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"...

I have lifelong career ambitions that marriage (and future children) didn't immediately end. I think I would be very unhappy and unfulfilled as a SAHM (and an unhappy, resentful mother is generally not a good one...). Also, while technically we could survive off my husband's income, I have the greater earning potential and I want to provide my children with every opportunity I can (travel, after school activities, assistance in paying for college, if they choose to go, etc).

Sorry for the ramble, but even though I don't have any children yet, I already have plenty of family and "friends" telling me I will be a horrible person and mother because I don't plan on "choosing" to stay home with them and my husband is already getting a lot of grief because he is interested in staying at home with children if financially able to do so.

[adidas]

I remembered. It's called "The Two Income Trap - Why Middle Class Mothers and Fathers Are Going Broke" by Elizabeth Warren.

amazon.com/Two-Income-Trap-Middle-Class-Mothers/dp/0465090826

theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/26/1067103264974.html

[Feberin]

I have lifelong career ambitions that marriage (and future children) didn't immediately end. I think I would be very unhappy and unfulfilled as a SAHM (and an unhappy, resentful mother is generally not a good one...). Also, while technically we could survive off my husband's income, I have the greater earning potential and I want to provide my children with every opportunity I can (travel, after school activities, assistance in paying for college, if they choose to go, etc).

Sorry for the ramble, but even though I don't have any children yet, I already have plenty of family and "friends" telling me I will be a horrible person and mother because I don't plan on "choosing" to stay home with them and my husband is already getting a lot of grief because he is interested in staying at home with children if financially able to do so.

See I think every couple/person needs to decide what works best for their family. I think some SAHMs get such a superior attitude because they have nothing else going for them so they brag about how awesome they are but I find staying home to be much easier for me then working full time with a baby. I also hate all the facebook messages that are all "YES I have a job!!! I'm a MOMMY and I have the HARDEST job EVER"! Especially when it's coming from a run of the mill SAHM not one that has a child with special needs or caring for an elderly parent/grandparent.

[emmiedahl]

Oh, I get so annoyed with that attitude. I work from home and have at best occasional childcare. So when SAHMs tell me that they are working the hardest job in the world, I get bitchy thoughts. srsly, their "hardest job in the world" is my "fun stuff that happens between work and school".

[Rosa]

Canticle, my son is EXHAUSTING. He's hyperactive, but we didn't know that when he was a toddler - just that he had to be watched every single minute, couldn't be confined easily (started vaulting out of the crib around 9 months, before he could even walk), didn't sleep well, and because of his sensory issues had a lot of inexplicable bouts of unhappiness (once he could talk they turned out to be from things like the bumps inside his socks and distracting noises or motion)

So, one of the reasons we chose a center over a home day care was that I wanted the caretakers to ALWAYS have a backup. Knowing how much I loved him and how short of patience I was by the end of a day with him, I wanted him to be in a place where any adult who was on her last nerve with him could hand him off to someone else - and that's exactly what he did, he bounced back and forth between the two rooms with different teachers, on days when one couldn't handle him constructively all day.

And, also, I could tell that he was loved. Not by every other kid and not by every teacher, but about the same ratio as inside our extended family :)

[ellerigby]

See I think every couple/person needs to decide what works best for their family. I think some SAHMs get such a superior attitude because they have nothing else going for them so they brag about how awesome they are but I find staying home to be much easier for me then working full time with a baby. I also hate all the facebook messages that are all "YES I have a job!!! I'm a MOMMY and I have the HARDEST job EVER"! Especially when it's coming from a run of the mill SAHM not one that has a child with special needs or caring for an elderly parent/grandparent.

I totally agree- every family/individual is different and should do what works for them (unless that involves any sort of abuse- then intervention is totally warranted and necessary).

And I hate those facebook statuses too- if I notice one, that person is hidden from my news feed. I love stfuparents. ;)

[Feberin]

I also hate the term "full time Mommy" like working mothers aren't mothers 24/7! Nobody says that working fathers aren't full time fathers! When I worked if my son was sick then I had to miss work not say "oh sorry it's not my mothering time, sorry kid". I love stfuparents! Not sure if I should as a parent but it cracks me up! I would never consider posting my son's poop on facebook.

[ellerigby]

Feberin, if you're the type of parent who wouldn't post pics of your child's poop on facebook, you are fully entitled to love stfuparents. I read the comments there sometimes, and it seems like there are a ton of parents that love that site. I think there is an underlying love of children on that site (especially when they mock a parent who posted about their daughter's first period, etc).

I totally hate the "full time mommy" comments too. It's a way to make working parents (especially working mothers) feel inferior for having the gall to ever be away from their children. I've only heard that term from super judgy SAHMs.

[snarkbillie]

Feberin, if you're the type of parent who wouldn't post pics of your child's poop on facebook, you are fully entitled to love stfuparents. I read the comments there sometimes, and it seems like there are a ton of parents that love that site. I think there is an underlying love of children on that site (especially when they mock a parent who posted about their daughter's first period, etc).

I totally hate the "full time mommy" comments too. It's a way to make working parents (especially working mothers) feel inferior for having the gall to ever be away from their children. I've only heard that term from super judgy SAHMs.

When I was a SAHM people would say "oh, you're a full time mother?" and I would say "No, there's about 2 hours in the afternoon when I completely disown my children."

[ellerigby]

I think I love you, snarkbillie.

[Wolfie]

Feberin, if you're the type of parent who wouldn't post pics of your child's poop on facebook, you are fully entitled to love stfuparents. I read the comments there sometimes, and it seems like there are a ton of parents that love that site. I think there is an underlying love of children on that site (especially when they mock a parent who posted about their daughter's first period, etc).

I think that they do care too- It seems to be more that the parents are giving TMI about the kids who have no say in the matter.

[ilovetchotchkes]

When I was a SAHM people would say "oh, you're a full time mother?" and I would say "No, there's about 2 hours in the afternoon when I completely disown my children."

See i get the opposite reaction. People assume that since I'm home with a VERY active toddler who is enmeshed in a HUGE conspiracy with our Welsh Corgis, that I apparently sit on my ass all day eating bon bons.

Being a parent, whether working or stay at home is HARD WORK no matter how you go about doing it.

Unless of course, you're J'chelle and have an army of teenage girls to be your slaves

[2xx1xy1JD]

I worked at mother's day out for a few years taking care of infants to 3 year olds. Not at the same time! LOL I followed them up. When they were infants I took care of them, when they turned 1 I took over that class, etc. I loved each of the kids. I didn't just take care of them I cared for them. I taught them things and played with them and cared for them as if they were my own. Burn outs just don't last very long in childcare. It doesn't pay enough to put up with if you don't really love it. Couple that with new laws that require childcare to be licensed which means in a lot of places the people working there have to have degrees in early childhood education...which is not something you pay for and work towards unless you want to be around kids all day.

I haven't ever gone to daycare but I've worked at one and been a SAHM and the kids got comparable care both places.

You really have to shop around. Some daycares are awesome and some suck. Go with your gut.

Obviously, it depends on the individual child and on the particular center.

I found, though, that while babies are all about sleeping and nursing and being carried around, toddlers are far more social and active. At that point, my kids needed more stimulation. For #1, that meant a daycare center, where she had a full program including music, art, library, gym and swim. She had a great time with her little friends all day, and would snuggle with me all night. #2 went to an excellent home-based daycare, which was run to the same standards as a larger center by my backyard neighbor, who dealt exclusively with kids ages 1 and 2. #3 had a nanny, but also spent one day a week at the same home-based daycare as #2, in order to get him used to socializing, plus he had two sisters to entertain him.

I also have to say that ANY type of arrangement can be good or bad. Some centers are bad, and get closed down. Some home-based daycares are unregulated and scary. I rejected one after the owner seemed offended that I wanted police checks done. [My neighbor won my heart and my trust by coming over with a binder, full of her CV, reference letters and a police check. My mom, by coincidence, was teaching for the principal who had written one of her references, got a glowing report, and that sealed the deal.] We screened at least 20 nannies before finding our Mary Poppins, and I heard some scary stories about some of her friends. Finally, I know that my SIL was repeatedly molested while at the grandparents, because my ILs didn't trust any outside daycare or babysitter. Even parents can do a lousy job.

[ChickeyMonkey]

I'm still pregnant(seriously, it's never going to end!) and there is no way we could afford me to be a stay at home mom, I enjoy having health insurance through the company I work for too much. I also think, and I hate to admit this, it would drive me insane to be home all day.

Don't feel bad about admitting you're not SAHM material. It's good that you know that about yourself and admit it instead of making yourself miserable trying to be a person you aren't. I admit it, too. I was laid off right before I had our 2nd kid (as in, like 12 days before having him) and haven't found work yet, and that was 2.5 years ago. I've been stuck at home with a toddler who's too smart for his own good and knows it, for far too long. Thank god for 2x a week daycare where I can take him to a neighbor who runs a daycare. He's there for 3 hours two days a week and can play with 2 other boys his age. He gets to learn new things there as well. Not that he can't learn things with me, but I think it's better for him to have some kids his age to play with than being stuck at home with me all day. We don't go many places because he'll run off, touch everything, pull clothes off shelves, etc. I love him and I'm happy he's a smart boy, but this kid runs me ragged. His brother is 8 and is constantly having to tell the 2.5 year old to leave him alone and get out of his room. Then they antagonize each other and drive me to the brink of insanity. See, I could never homeschool because we'd all hate each other by the end. It's *good* to have time away from your family. It's good to have time to yourself other than when you're sleeping.

I can't wait until I get a job and get the hell out of the house. It will make me like my kids more (as horrible as that sounds) because we'll have a break from each other and have a chance to appreciate one another. Does that make sense?

So, don't ever think you're not a good mother or person because you have to or choose to work. Some people are better at staying home and for others it's like dying a little every day. Too dramatic? :) Everyone is different and knows what is best for his/her self and situation, so anyone who says differently can suck it! :)