Williamsburg Bus Makes Women Sit in the Back

[Jewess]

It seems like having these strict segregation rules really does have a negative impact on you and your family Jewish.

Except what I'm saying is- there's no official "segregation rules" here anyhow, and there's still an issue. So do the same in williamsburg, take away the signs, and nothing will change, because that's how those people are. You can't force them to be different, it just won't work.

[Austin]

Except what I'm saying is- there's no official "segregation rules" here anyhow, and there's still an issue. So do the same in williamsburg, take away the signs, and nothing will change, because that's how those people are. You can't force them to be different, it just won't work.

Maybe, maybe not. That's irrelevant. It would be completely wrong for a public transportation system to endorse such nonsense, which is what the case is if there are signs directing people where to sit.

[formergothardite]

Except what I'm saying is- there's no official "segregation rules" here anyhow, and there's still an issue. So do the same in williamsburg, take away the signs, and nothing will change, because that's how those people are. You can't force them to be different, it just won't work.

Take away the signs and nobody could force your husband to move seats if he sat down next to a woman. They could either move themselves or get over it. Your husband is choosing to stand and then whine about it, nobody is making him. If there were signs, your husband would not have that choice. Right now he feels pressured to make the choice to stand, but he still has a choice. The women with those signs, don't have the choice.

[Jewess]

Take away the signs and nobody could force your husband to move seats if he sat down next to a woman. They could either move themselves or get over it. Your husband is choosing to stand and then whine about it, nobody is making him. If there were signs, your husband would not have that choice. Right now he feels pressured to make the choice to stand, but he still has a choice. The women with those signs, don't have the choice.

They do have a choice, as far as I know. What do you think would happen if someone wouldn't move even if there was a sign? They wouldn't exactly be arrested, would they? So how can they be forced, is my question?

[formergothardite]

They do have a choice, as far as I know. What do you think would happen if someone wouldn't move even if there was a sign? They wouldn't exactly be arrested, would they? So how can they be forced, is my question?

It was a posted rule, wasn't it, women in back? You know more about these communities than I do, what do they do to women when they openly break rules?

[Jewess]

It was a posted rule, wasn't it, women in back? You know more about these communities than I do, what do they do to women when they openly break rules?

Depends. I mentioned what happened when I accidentally sat in the men's section on a mehadrin bus in Israel. No one said a thing to me, but I was distinctly uncomfortable once I realized. There have been times occasionally in the media where someone purposely sat in the "wrong" part of the bus, and they got asked to move. And when they didn't, well, in some cases there was verbal sparring. But even then no one was "forced" to move. No one dragged the person onto the "correct side of the bus", no one arrested anyone for sitting on the wrong side. At most heated words were exchanged. And even that is very rarely. Very very rarely. Most times, you just might get odd looks.

Which isn't any different than what would happen in a place that is without a sign, but still remains unofficially segregated.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Of course they are free to simply remove the sign, that's been the case from the beginning. The issue is why they felt a need for the sign.

If people are voluntarily all self-segregating, and people who don't go with the program are merely made to feel awkward (perhaps they sit down, and the former occupant of the seat looks annoyed, gets up, and moves, and people give stink eye) then no laws are being violated and it's a complete non-issue. The bus keeps the franchise charter and life goes on.

But apparently people were not all self-segregating, because the population riding the bus isn't nearly as homogeneous as some would like to make it out to be when the mainstream media come calling - even during hours when it's only local community members on the bus, opinion is not all in agreement. Part of the community feels a need to post a sign, just as they felt a need to post the sign asking women to step aside for men on the sidewalk - signs not in English, even, so it's clear who the audience was. Those signs got local snark too.

[emmiedahl]

Is the sign in Hebrew? If so, I might view it a little differently. It needs to go, either way. (From what I saw in the photos, there are Hebrew signs all over the place reminding people of what the correct behavior might be. Obviously they are aimed at those who *care* because they are written in a language that the average New Yorker would not comprehend.)

[Eponine]

Is the sign in Hebrew? If so, I might view it a little differently. It needs to go, either way. (From what I saw in the photos, there are Hebrew signs all over the place reminding people of what the correct behavior might be. Obviously they are aimed at those who *care* because they are written in a language that the average New Yorker would not comprehend.)

I think this is pretty key. It shows that people in the community were not automatically and voluntarily self-segregating, meaning either some are unaware or some don't want to do it. Which in turn implies to me that this whole bit about oh, it's only the rabblerousers that ever had a problem with the system and they're the only ones complaining/not doing it, is not correct at all. It means that women in the community need to be reminded of their place - that's where it turns into a form of oppression.

[Jewess]

Can I say I was wrong? I asked some of my chassidish friends from boro park and williamsburg who take this bus, and they don't like the segregation either. So yes, it is oppressive then on all counts, and I see reason to take action. You were right, I was wrong. I apologize.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Jewess:

Actually, there have been cases where more than "verbal sparring" were involved. Google "Miriam Shear".

[Jewess]

Jewess:

Actually, there have been cases where more than "verbal sparring" were involved. Google "Miriam Shear".

OMG don't get me started on Miriam Shear. She is one evil lady who has major mental and emotional issues and is an abusive lady who tried to ruin the lives of quite a few people I know (google shir bamidbar seminary), so I really would take anything she claims with a huge huge huge huge grain of salt.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I think this is pretty key. It shows that people in the community were not automatically and voluntarily self-segregating, meaning either some are unaware or some don't want to do it. Which in turn implies to me that this whole bit about oh, it's only the rabblerousers that ever had a problem with the system and they're the only ones complaining/not doing it, is not correct at all. It means that women in the community need to be reminded of their place - that's where it turns into a form of oppression.

Exactly the point I am aiming at, in a perhaps very roundabout way. Things are not nearly as homogeneous as they are occasionally portrayed (particularly when the media comes in to interview), and saying "the community wants..." is not the same thing as "all members of the community want...".

Yiddish signs are for the Yiddish speaking public. Someone, or some people, in the community feel that others in the community need to be reminded of the proper behavior, be that segregating the bus or stepping aside on the sidewalk. And this extent of segregation is a new thing, it hasn't always been that way by any means, and so as these changes are implemented, they get commentary and yes, even complaints. Even from the inside.

It's a free country, so people are free to hang private signs wherever it's legal to do so (the sidewalk signs were removed because you can't hang signs on city trees, not due to any content issues) and people are free to self-segregate on a bus, but they can't put up a sign - even one only aimed at one subgroup of the public - aiming at coercion on the bus, because that means the city is endorsing that segregation.