Williamsburg Bus Makes Women Sit in the Back

[emmiedahl]

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/23/wb_modestypolice_2011_6_10_bk.html <--the modesty police!!!!

In the comments for the modesty police article. OMGOMG

Job Provider from Tea Party Nation says:

After we take back our country from the communist from Kenya next year, this type of thinking is going to take hold in the heartland. The Hasids are right to embrace modest and traditional values, and Christian American Women are ready for a return to a modest lifestyle.

Walk around naked to your hearts desire for the next year, because it's not going to be tolerated in 2013 when America has a much needed spiritual reawakening and cleansing.

:o

[xDreamerx]

I would expect something like this perhaps in Israel but not in America. I hope the women who ride that bus give them hell. They should get a group of them together and fill the bus. Surely this is unconstitutional? I mean, perhaps not literally but certainly it is contrary to the spirit of the law.

In Canada, there is an article of the Constitution that guarantees the right to mobility. (It was created to allow people to move freely between the provinces but the language of it could be used to challenge a wide array of mobility issues). Too bad there isn't something similar in this case.

[doggie]

nothing like making everyone suffer for your beliefs. It would be fun to hire a troupe of exotic dancers load them on the bus then let the fun begin.

[pomology]

I wonder if these are women who work to support their families because their husbands are off studying all day (and having homoerotic study sessions if they're Hasids...). Probably.

[doggie]

I wonder if these are women who work to support their families because their husbands are off studying all day (and having homoerotic study sessions if they're Hasids...). Probably.

that's such a joke what do they really accomplish?

[pomology]

that's such a joke what do they really accomplish?

I don't understand your question. What do who accomplish?

[doggie]

I don't understand your question. What do who accomplish?

the husbands studying all day instead of working. what have they really accomplished?

[nutella addict]

Sooooo I don't go to NYC too often but it's a reasonable (albeit expensive) distance for a day trip for me and I do rather want to go visit my friend who's just moved there...and I have a feeling I know at least one other girl who would find this ridiculous and worthy of protesting...

I would at least consider it.

[pomology]

the husbands studying all day instead of working. what have they really accomplished?

They're doing what they think God wants them to do and they get off on that. Don't try to hard to understand them. It will hurt your brain and you still won't get anywhere. I know I've given up trying.

[doggie]

They're doing what they think God wants them to do and they get off on that. Don't try to hard to understand them. It will hurt your brain and you still won't get anywhere. I know I've given up trying.

True I remember the uproar where the government was going to cut their welfare because they would not work man the stink that made. it would not be as big of a deal if they did not marry and make babies.

[pomology]

True I remember the uproar where the government was going to cut their welfare because they would not work man the stink that made. it would not be as big of a deal if they did not marry and make babies.

I'm with you, there.

[masagoroll]

Why can't they pray if they can see women??

[emmiedahl]

the husbands studying all day instead of working. what have they really accomplished?

If the wife wants to support them while studying, then whatevs. I just know I will not be moving to the back of the bus. Make me, bitches.

[Kelya]

I read about this on Imamother fairly frequently with it happening in Israel seemingly all the time. Not cool.

[Terrie]

They cannot enforce that, and I would refuse to move. Is this a public bus? I don't care what they do in their own ventures, but the government will not pay to make me a second class citizen. Cover your eyes when you pray like a good Jew.

:lol: I love you a little bit for that comment.

[Spider Burps]

Sooooo I don't go to NYC too often but it's a reasonable (albeit expensive) distance for a day trip for me and I do rather want to go visit my friend who's just moved there...and I have a feeling I know at least one other girl who would find this ridiculous and worthy of protesting...

I would at least consider it.

Seriously, if you and your friends end up in Brooklyn and actually -do- want to do a little bus "protest" let me know! I go to NYC a few times a month and I'm sure I could hop on the train and meet you guys on the bus for a sit in! :) We could give those Wall Street occupiers a run for their... er... I'd say money, but I think they're protesting that or something.

I'd do it alone, but knowing me I'd just move to the back of the bus to prevent a bunch of angry men from going after me. In even a small group, though, it's a completely different story and I'd totally raise some hell!

[thoughtful]

Me too! And if anyone tells me to move because only men are allowed to ride in the front, I want to say, "I am a man," with a totally straight face. Then what? Are they gonna check? :lol:

:lol: :lol:

I like that!

Ah, idiotic fundamentalist patriarchal faux-modesty crap -- sometimes it's just breathtakingly awful how easily it can take over part of a group.

The Jewish tradition in which I was raised (and for which I still have affection, even though I no longer believe in anything supernatural) was nothing like this.

[Austin]

My husband was getting dressed this morning and this story happened to come on CNN. He just looked at me and said, "Holy cow, what if a woman like you got on that bus? It would not be pretty!"

I couldn't give a shit about their religion. I respect people's religion until they cease to respect me. They can sit in their own homes and believe and enforce whatever shit their family will put up with, but don't come out in public and with public funds expect to be able to discriminate against me or anyone else. Go buy your own damn bus if that's what you want to do, you freaks.

/end rant

[deborahlynn1979]

Anyone going to ride this bus must do so in a bikini and go-go boots. That is all.

ETA: Okay, that wasn't all. :) This is the same group that tried to outlaw the bike lanes because women were riding bikes in shorts, right? And then put up signs telling Hasidic women not to walk around in tank tops? (I can't imagine a Hasidic woman doing this in the first place, so it seems like a message to all the non-Hasidic women, no?)

[Spider Burps]

Anyone going to ride this bus must do so in a bikini and go-go boots. That is all.

Eeeeek! I've changed my mind... I'm gonna stay home! :lol:

[Jewess]

I wonder if these are women who work to support their families because their husbands are off studying all day (and having homoerotic study sessions if they're Hasids...). Probably.

I just need to point out that Hasidim don't usually do the "man learning Torah all day and women working" thing the way that happens in other ultra orthodox circles. Hasidic men usually work and women are homemakers.

[Eponine]

I just need to point out that Hasidim don't usually do the "man learning Torah all day and women working" thing the way that happens in other ultra orthodox circles. Hasidic men usually work and women are homemakers.

Yeah I would guess it's the opposite.

I used to ride the shuttle to the university where I worked with a group of ultra Orthodox women (we had a special program for them, and during the summer they were pretty much the only students coming on my train from Brooklyn in the mornings) and this most definitely never happened. The whole reason they were going to the school was because of the whole "men studying all day and women working" idea, but they never made an effort to sit in the back of the bus.

[FaustianSlip]

I would dispute that all (most?) Hasidim usually have the men working and the women staying home to raise the kids. There are tons of Satmars and Hasids from other courts who stay and learn in kollel after marriage, at least for a period of time, while their wife (or, ideally, their wife's family) supports them. I'd say it's probably a little more common in Israel, since there's a much bigger proliferation of yeshivot, but every one of the major Hasidic groups, so far as I know, has at least one yeshiva of their own, which includes a kollel, and if you look on places like ChabadTalk, there's a lot of discussion of the increasing pressure put on young men to "sit and learn" after marriage rather than work, even if they're not particularly academically suited to spending the rest of their lives learning Torah. It's a huge status thing, being able to say that you spend all day on spiritual matters at kollel instead of running a glatt kosher pizza place, or something. Not to mention that there are women who want to marry someone who will learn at least for a few years after marriage; it's a prevalent enough phenomenon that you've got Modern Orthodox groups like The Groggers singing about it! I've also read articles saying that an increasing number of Hasidic students have started attending traditionally Litvish yeshivot like Lakewood.

Anyway, the bus. Personally, I think it's outrageous. If they want to buy a community bus, hey, go ahead and do what you want. I think it's ridiculous and totally above and beyond anything required in the Torah, but that's their right. On a public bus, though? Not on my freaking dime, buddy. They get away with this crap in Israel because the Prime Minister doesn't feel like compelling the police to actually enforce the rulings of the High Court, because he's afraid it'll upset his coalition, but the U.S. isn't Israel, and you don't get to just arbitrarily start forcing women to sit in the back of your bus. To me, it's a gigantic chillul Hashem; what they're doing isn't Judaism, it makes Judaism look awful to anyone looking in from the outside (and makes Orthodoxy look pretty unpalatable to a lot of people looking at this from other movements, incidentally), and they ought to be ashamed of themselves. If you're that fragile that you can't even see a woman without your yetzer hara going out of control, maybe you shouldn't leave your house.

There's a commenter on Failed Messiah who said that the Hasidic communities tried to do this in the UK, as well, on the buses going to/from Gateshead. Apparently the locals (drivers and passengers) responded to instructions to move by telling the folks involved to get bent, and that was the end of that. Any driver found to have been allowing/enforcing this "policy" should be fired, incidentally.

[pomology]

I just need to point out that Hasidim don't usually do the "man learning Torah all day and women working" thing the way that happens in other ultra orthodox circles. Hasidic men usually work and women are homemakers.

I probably shouldn't have included the Hasids in my comment. I was just making a snarky commented related to something we had discussed in my Jewish history class.

But it's also true that when we were discussing women working and the men staying home in that class, we were discussing mitnagdim, so definitely not Hasids. So, yeah. You are correct and I was just being a five year old and pointing out the homoeroticism inherent to Hasidism.

[Jewess]

I would dispute that all (most?) Hasidim usually have the men working and the women staying home to raise the kids. There are tons of Satmars and Hasids from other courts who stay and learn in kollel after marriage, at least for a period of time, while their wife (or, ideally, their wife's family) supports them. I'd say it's probably a little more common in Israel, since there's a much bigger proliferation of yeshivot, but every one of the major Hasidic groups, so far as I know, has at least one yeshiva of their own, which includes a kollel

Ok, maybe I didn't elaborate enough, but I meant Chassidut in general doesn't promote kollel/long term Torah study the same way that the Litvish/Mitnaged world does. In fact, Chassidut was started by the Baal Shem Tov as a way to bring the "simple folk", mostly farmers and other physical laborers, close to God, and saying "You don't need to be a Torah scholar and spend all your time learning Torah to be a good Jew"... whereas in the Litvish/Mitnaged world, that was the general philosophy. And today still, kollel, for sure not long term kollel, isn't considered to be a Hasidic ideal the way it is a litvish ideal.

Israel is another story, and the fact that Hasidim are in kollel is more reactionary to the fact that its either kollel or serving in the army, and most Hareidim are anti serving in the army, so they just end up learning in kollel to get out of the army, not as an ideal. Once the "mandatory army stage" is over (once you're 28 and have three kids), most Hasidim do go out and find work, whereas the Litvish guys stay in kollel till their dying day most often. My husband davened in a Hareidi Hasidic shul in our old community, and I think none of the guys in that shul actually were in kollel. Unlike the local Litvish shul, where there were a few token workers, and everyone else was in kollel. Which is why my husband davened in the Hasidic shul- he wasn't made to feel like a "bad jew" because he was *gasp* working to support his family instead of making me do it--- the way he pretty much was made to feel in the Litvish community.

and if you look on places like ChabadTalk, there's a lot of discussion of the increasing pressure put on young men to "sit and learn" after marriage rather than work, even if they're not particularly academically suited to spending the rest of their lives learning Torah.

Can I say that unless someone is Chabad, no one religious refers to Chabad when they're talking about Chassidim. Chabad is so different from mainstream chassidim (and might I even say mainstream Orthodox Judaism) that they can't be lumped together with chassidim in general. Chabad, for example, would never do something like gender segregated buses.

It's a huge status thing, being able to say that you spend all day on spiritual matters at kollel instead of running a glatt kosher pizza place, or something. Not to mention that there are women who want to marry someone who will learn at least for a few years after marriage; it's a prevalent enough phenomenon that you've got Modern Orthodox groups like The Groggers singing about it! I've also read articles saying that an increasing number of Hasidic students have started attending traditionally Litvish yeshivot like Lakewood.

Mitnaged/litvish ideals are rubbing off on chassidim and even modern orthodox/religious zionist orthodox Jews. The difference is- one is the ideal of that group, the other is other group's ideals influencing your behavior.