Williamsburg Bus Makes Women Sit in the Back

[Patsy]

Gender segregation is bullshit and bigotry is bigotry even if the oppressed are complicit in their own oppression. The fact that a few people jokingly suggested jumping on the bus to mess up the man doesn't mean that anti-patriarchs are zomg just the worst fundies eva!!!1, that's like saying that if you have a discussion about whether staying at home actually advances the feminist cause, it's the same thing as FORCING all women to work just like pre-60s America, OMG THE LIBERALS ARE JUST AS BAAAAD!

I mean, not segregating is actually a thing that society generally agrees should be done. This isn't some new-fangled fancy librul agenda to reinforce some idea only they agree with. Public funds aren't supposed to fund discriminatory practice. Pointing out that this is a public bus line, or even trying to reinforce that it not discriminate, is not that close to trying to overhaul all abortion law. The closest comparison is maybe to legislation that makes abortion no longer provided in a government clinic in an area of high abortions, and even then I think that would be stretching it.

And I don't think this discussion has been entirely about government intervention and enforcement, just as I don't think it has been about whether or not we're personally pissed off with each individual who chooses to sit in the way they've been told. Seems a bit disingenuous to me to try and imply that actually, that's all it is. Or, pulling no punches because that seems to piss you off: you keep implying that the discussion has been redefined by concensus when actually, that's just a point you want to focus on.

I think you have a very different baseline definition of what oppression and bigotry are. In your mind it seems that if women smile and say they're okay, that means it's all fine, and if men explicitly say "we respect women", that means they respect women. Any further analysis is completely missing the point, because duh! of course their behaviour is okay! they just SAID it was! Like the "actually men are lesser" thing you were saying, does that mean the dominionist patriarchy bullshit is just as okay in your mind?

[Jewess]

Gender segregation is bullshit and bigotry is bigotry even if the oppressed are complicit in their own oppression. The fact that a few people jokingly suggested jumping on the bus to mess up the man doesn't mean that anti-patriarchs are zomg just the worst fundies eva!!!1, that's like saying that if you have a discussion about whether staying at home actually advances the feminist cause, it's the same thing as FORCING all women to work just like pre-60s America, OMG THE LIBERALS ARE JUST AS BAAAAD!

I mean, not segregating is actually a thing that society generally agrees should be done. This isn't some new-fangled fancy librul agenda to reinforce some idea only they agree with. Public funds aren't supposed to fund discriminatory practice. Pointing out that this is a public bus line, or even trying to reinforce that it not discriminate, is not that close to trying to overhaul all abortion law. The closest comparison is maybe to legislation that makes abortion no longer provided in a government clinic in an area of high abortions, and even then I think that would be stretching it.

And I don't think this discussion has been entirely about government intervention and enforcement, just as I don't think it has been about whether or not we're personally pissed off with each individual who chooses to sit in the way they've been told. Seems a bit disingenuous to me to try and imply that actually, that's all it is. Or, pulling no punches because that seems to piss you off: you keep implying that the discussion has been redefined by concensus when actually, that's just a point you want to focus on.

I think you have a very different baseline definition of what oppression and bigotry are. In your mind it seems that if women smile and say they're okay, that means it's all fine, and if men explicitly say "we respect women", that means they respect women. Any further analysis is completely missing the point, because duh! of course their behaviour is okay! they just SAID it was! Like the "actually men are lesser" thing you were saying, does that mean the dominionist patriarchy bullshit is just as okay in your mind?

Honestly, your posts are so hateful and offensive that it really makes me not want to respond to anything you have to say, even if you make some decent points, because you're so bigoted and closedminded to anything that disagrees with your philosophy in life that you're not willing to actually hear someone say anything different, so its pointless to respond to points you make. Sorry. I know this is freejinger and all and we don't have to be polite, but at the same time, you catch more with honey than vinegar and your ranting and raving about how terrible and oppressive something is doesn't make anyone (or me at least) see a point in even responding to you.

[Kelya]

Honestly, your posts are so hateful and offensive that it really makes me not want to respond to anything you have to say, even if you make some decent points, because you're so bigoted and closedminded to anything that disagrees with your philosophy in life that you're not willing to actually hear someone say anything different, so its pointless to respond to points you make. Sorry. I know this is freejinger and all and we don't have to be polite, but at the same time, you catch more with honey than vinegar and your ranting and raving about how terrible and oppressive something is doesn't make anyone (or me at least) see a point in even responding to you.

Please identify what parts of her points were "hateful and offensive" and elaborate on how she is "bigoted and closeminded."

I'm not sure why we're not supposed to "rant and rave about how terrible and oppressive something is." If something is terrible and oppressive, it generally should be discussed critically and will be highly emotional.

I'm not sure why this thread had to center around patiently repeating basic facts for Jewess:

- You can not discriminate against women on public transportation,

-Enforcing seating assignments due to gender is discrimination

-the bus is public transportation due to the charter granted to it by the city, even if it does not receive tax dollars, it receives numerous benefits for being part of the public transportation system.

-People can of course select where they want to sit, but any enforcement of seating arrangements, via signs hung by religious groups or harassment/intimidation by people is discrimination and must be stopped.

I'm getting shades of the old board, where we spent pages and pages going over Jewish divorce law and how it is unfair to women, only to have Pennyp continually stick her fingers in her ears and holler about how she was happy being oppressed. And you know what, if that's the religion and system she's chosen and is happy with, cool. As long as you don't attempt to make my process of getting a divorce in the secular world as difficult, whatever. Just like in this- if you want your sexist buses, go for it, create them, ride them, throw parties on them, whatever, have a good time with your support of religious sexism. I'll think you're a fool but if you make the honest choice to follow that path, that is your decision. But don't fuck with my secular buses.

[Jewess]

Regarding the part I bolded, it is this kind of dickish behavior that is so infuriating. Would it kill you to change seats so that a woman could get where she needs to go? Apparently women are the only ones supposed to exercise courtesy and consideration. Don't want to have to look at women? Blindfold yourself and hire a sighted person to guide you around. You are not so special that 1/2 the world's population should have to become invisible.

No disagreement here. Some people can be totally dickish, thats true.

But in all honesty... its not just these men that act dickish on the bus.

I mentioned above how our local bus line works, where men and women don't sit in seats next to each other. My husband has gone on the bus numerous times and has seen women take seats, and put their bags in the empty seat next to them. The bus will be entirely filled up with women sitting by themselves, with no room available for a man to sit... and these women just continue sitting there, either totally oblivious to the fact that there's no place for my husband to sit, or just not caring... and if my husband would actually sit down next to one of those women, they'd flip out and/or get totally offended by his lack of respect for their personal space. And he's asked women before if they could move back one seat so there could be a place for him to sit, and he's gotten such looks of disgust for having the nerve to make that request, that my shy, polite husband, when he goes on the bus and sees all the seats taken up by one woman with a space next to her... that he just stands the whole entire bus ride, even though half the seats on the bus are empty. And gets incredibly pissed off at the women who don't even pay attention to notice that there isn't a single seat available for a man to sit in.

And I'll admit, at other times of day, I've seen the entire bus filled with men sitting the same way, with no seats available for women, and I've gotten pissed off, but I've got enough balls to tell a man to please move over, and I don't care if he gives me a look or not.

Some people just are in their own little bubble when they're on public transportation. They just care whether or not they have a seat, and then they pretty much close their eyes and don't pay attention to anything else going on on the bus.

And that could be what happens with these Hasidic men, that they aren't purposely not making space for the women to sit, but just that they are not paying attention and are totally oblivious to the fact that there aren't seats for women.

And let me say- rude people on buses aren't strictly on gender segregated buses. Haven't we all seen young, healthy people refusing to stand for an older, frail individual or a disabled individual who is having trouble standing? Haven't we seen healthy looking people sitting down right next to a 9 month pregnant woman who is having a hard time standing, and just not caring?

There are oblivious, uncaring individuals everywhere, and you see lots of them on public transportation. Religion or lack of religion, there are self absorbed people who aren't considerate of others everywhere.

[Jewess]

You're right, Kelya.

I guess my approach to life is very much life and let live as long as what they're doing isn't hurting me and they are enjoying their life. And in this case, how people sit on the Williamsburg/boro park bus has no effect on me personally, or on any other freejinger for the record, so I see no need to make trouble for people, even if what they're doing is illegal.

But you know what? Its the freejingers of the world, the movers and shakers who actually get things done and improve the world so we can have the freedom we need to live our normal lives today, much more than the lassaiz faire people like myself, so I guess at this point I should back out of this discussion, because even if the choices you make are different from the ones I would make, its people like you who make enough of a ruckus to make the world a better place, so thank you.

[ChickeyMonkey]

Change "women" to "Black" and we have part of the US Civil Rights issues from the 60's (and earlier). Separate does not mean equal.

How is making women sit in the back of the bus any different than making Black people sit at the back of the bus?

Now I have the hook of Outkast's "Rosa Parks" stuck in my head:

"Ah ha, hush that fuss

Everybody move to the back of the bus..."

[jaelh]

http://www.unpious.com/2011/10/sex-segregated-buses/

[Jewess]

http://www.unpious.com/2011/10/sex-segregated-buses/

That was a good article and basically summed up my feelings on the issue, other than the fact that I'm not indignant that they don't stick up for their rights. If they're happy living like that, then let them, and if they're not happy about it, then let them say something about it, but the outside world can't force people to be outraged about an issue that they don't care about, or perhaps actually want. Thank you for that link.

[formergothardite]

You're right, Kelya.

I guess my approach to life is very much life and let live as long as what they're doing isn't hurting me and they are enjoying their life. And in this case, how people sit on the Williamsburg/boro park bus has no effect on me personally, or on any other freejinger for the record, so I see no need to make trouble for people, even if what they're doing is illegal.But you know what? Its the freejingers of the world, the movers and shakers who actually get things done and improve the world so we can have the freedom we need to live our normal lives today, much more than the lassaiz faire people like myself, so I guess at this point I should back out of this discussion, because even if the choices you make are different from the ones I would make, its people like you who make enough of a ruckus to make the world a better place, so thank you.

They are getting support from the government for segregation, so it effects all of us. If this is just allowed to go on with the government just looking the other way, it sets the precedent for other types of segregations. What if an all white neighborhood wants to put up a sign saying that black people must sit in the back? You okay with that too? Hey, black people just shouldn't go to their neighborhood. All the arguments you used reminds me of the racists elderly people I know bitching about desegregating the busses.

[Jewess]

They are getting support from the government for segregation, so it effects all of us. If this is just allowed to go on with the government just looking the other way, it sets the precedent for other types of segregations. What if an all white neighborhood wants to put up a sign saying that black people must sit in the back? You okay with that too? Hey, black people just shouldn't go to their neighborhood. All the arguments you used reminds me of the racists elderly people I know bitching about desegregating the busses.

If the black people wanted to sit in the back of the bus, it would be the same, maybe. But they obviously didn't, which is why they did something about it.

[formergothardite]

If the black people wanted to sit in the back of the bus, it would be the same, maybe. But they obviously didn't, which is why they did something about it.

Acccording to some of the elderly people I used to volunteer with the black people at least on the buses they rode on, wanted to sit in the back. It was just those northern black people who came down here and didn't understand our Southern culture who made such a big deal. And you really are okay with the government supporting buses that would force all black people to sit in the back? What about Jews? Should the government support organizations that force Jews to sit in the back of the bus?

ETA: I don't believe that all the black people who were forced to sit in the back were happy about it, they just knew that if they complained it would get them in trouble. I also don't believe that every single woman who has ridden that bus was happy about being made to sit in the back, they just didn't complain.

[Spider Burps]

I don't know if this was addressed, but I wanted to respond to this... Sorry if someone already said this and I missed it!

AFAIK, you pay at the back. At least thats how it is in Israel on the mehadrin busses, and maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but I thought thats how it also worked on that williamsburg/boro park line.

You're definitely wrong on that one. You pay at the front of all NYC buses, this one included, so the bus line itself says that during crowded times, women are meant to pay at the front and then board at the back (and stand at the back if the bus is so crowded that it's standing room only). When it's not crowded, women board and pay at the front, but then move to the back to sit. So, yeah, there's no one getting on in the back unless it's rush hour--and even then, they still have to get on to pay in the front, then get off, only to get back on in the back. Imagine doing that with a stroller/groceries/kids. Reeeeeeally logical, B110. *eye roll*

[Austin]

You're right, Kelya.

I guess my approach to life is very much life and let live as long as what they're doing isn't hurting me and they are enjoying their life. And in this case, how people sit on the Williamsburg/boro park bus has no effect on me personally, or on any other freejinger for the record, so I see no need to make trouble for people, even if what they're doing is illegal.

But you know what? Its the freejingers of the world, the movers and shakers who actually get things done and improve the world so we can have the freedom we need to live our normal lives today, much more than the lassaiz faire people like myself, so I guess at this point I should back out of this discussion, because even if the choices you make are different from the ones I would make, its people like you who make enough of a ruckus to make the world a better place, so thank you.

If other people being oppressed does not affect you, that's your deal. If you can't recognize oppression wrapped up in a religious bow, that's your choice. As was said on a thread in chatter to a person with similar sensibilities to yours, it doesn't make you a horrible person that you just really don't care (if it's not about you) and are a-okay with the status quo, but please don't expect a pat on the back for it. Your views are troubling, and while you have the right to have them, other people have the right to point out how they're troubling.

I am not a "mover" or "shaker". I stand up in my daily life when opportunities present themselves. I do what I can, imperfectly, but at least I can be bothered. There's really nothing extraordinary about it.

[LilMissMetaphor]

The bus will be entirely filled up with women sitting by themselves, with no room available for a man to sit... and these women just continue sitting there, either totally oblivious to the fact that there's no place for my husband to sit, or just not caring... and if my husband would actually sit down next to one of those women, they'd flip out and/or get totally offended by his lack of respect for their personal space. And he's asked women before if they could move back one seat so there could be a place for him to sit, and he's gotten such looks of disgust for having the nerve to make that request, that my shy, polite husband, when he goes on the bus and sees all the seats taken up by one woman with a space next to her... that he just stands the whole entire bus ride, even though half the seats on the bus are empty. And gets incredibly pissed off at the women who don't even pay attention to notice that there isn't a single seat available for a man to sit in.

Aw, your poor hubby. How stressful for him. Here's an idea. If he doesn't like the idea that he might have to sit next to a WOMAN, maybe he should, oh I don't know, buy a FRICKING CAR. Because buses are intended for folks who want to get from point A to point B. It's not a study hall/shrine/personal prayer closet.

[Spider Burps]

Aw, your poor hubby. How stressful for him. Here's an idea. If he doesn't like the idea that he might have to sit next to a WOMAN, maybe he should, oh I don't know, buy a FRICKING CAR. Because buses are intended for folks who want to get from point A to point B. It's not a study hall/shrine/personal prayer closet.

Or he could just do what the rest of us do when there are no available seats: STAND. *eyes rolling out of head*

[lindsey]

Aw, your poor hubby. How stressful for him. Here's an idea. If he doesn't like the idea that he might have to sit next to a WOMAN, maybe he should, oh I don't know, buy a FRICKING CAR. Because buses are intended for folks who want to get from point A to point B. It's not a study hall/shrine/personal prayer closet.

On that same note, I have to really wonder what kind of communities you live in, Jewess.

I rode the bus for years when I was still going to school and where I live those were often normal lines, so it wasn't just students. And while it was common to have your backpack on the seat next to you, if someone asked if they could sit there, you picked it up, put it on your lap/the floor and they sat down. Never have I experienced someone being offended at having their personal space invaded. And neither have I ever experienced someone NOT giving up that extra seat if there aren't any free ones.

And while I mostly stopped riding the bus once I got my car, on the few occasions that I did, I never saw it happen either. And this goes for my homecountry as well as several vacation places.

I however have to say that I can kinda get people reacting like that if they saw your husband acting in the way you described it. Basically saying "Can you please move one row back and sit with someone else, so I can have two seats for myself?" is pretty rude and while I would probably pick up my backpack and let him sit there (NOT moving to another row though), I don't fault anyone for not doing it, cause wow!

I really don't care about the reason he's saying it either, cause rude is rude, no matter the reason.

[Spider Burps]

On that same note, I have to really wonder what kind of communities you live in, Jewess.

I rode the bus for years when I was still going to school and where I live those were often normal lines, so it wasn't just students. And while it was common to have your backpack on the seat next to you, if someone asked if they could sit there, you picked it up, put it on your lap/the floor and they sat down. Never have I experienced someone being offended at having their personal space invaded. And neither have I ever experienced someone NOT giving up that extra seat if there aren't any free ones.

And while I mostly stopped riding the bus once I got my car, on the few occasions that I did, I never saw it happen either. And this goes for my homecountry as well as several vacation places.

I however have to say that I can kinda get people reacting like that if they saw your husband acting in the way you described it. Basically saying "Can you please move one row back and sit with someone else, so I can have two seats for myself?" is pretty rude and while I would probably pick up my backpack and let him sit there (NOT moving to another row though), I don't fault anyone for not doing it, cause wow!

I really don't care about the reason he's saying it either, cause rude is rude, no matter the reason.

Because in her oh-so-pious community a man can't sit next to a woman lest her presence make him think sinful thoughts. Never mind that these same type of men have to walk around NYC, where you can't walk a foot without brushing against multiple skimpily dressed women... *eyes have officially rolled out of head*

[Austin]

Aw, your poor hubby. How stressful for him. Here's an idea. If he doesn't like the idea that he might have to sit next to a WOMAN, maybe he should, oh I don't know, buy a FRICKING CAR. Because buses are intended for folks who want to get from point A to point B. It's not a study hall/shrine/personal prayer closet.

So I'm trying to understand: is the bus full in this scenario or are there seats but your husband just doesn't want to have to sit by a woman? Because if it's the second, there is no obligation on the part of a female bus passenger to be concerned about your husband's hang-ups and quickly move herself closer to other wimminfolk to make speshul snowflake room for him. It is not about being oblivious, it is about being an adult.

I do believe that younger, able-bodied people should give up their seats to the elderly and pregnant women, but beyond that, I'm not sure why people should be concerned about who is getting on the bus. When I worked downtown and took the Express bus, I just sat my ass down in any available seat and opened my book until my destination was reached.

[docmom]

Aw, your poor hubby. How stressful for him. Here's an idea. If he doesn't like the idea that he might have to sit next to a WOMAN, maybe he should, oh I don't know, buy a FRICKING CAR. Because buses are intended for folks who want to get from point A to point B. It's not a study hall/shrine/personal prayer closet.

THIS! No-one is forcing any man to use the bus, but to expect me to move out of my seat so he isn't forced to sit beside a woman is an infringement on MY rights to use public transport. If men feel threatend spiritually by women then they should avoid women, not force women to avoid them. This, ladies, is all about control never mind the fancy religion labels and it makes me so angry :x

[Jewess]

You completely missed my point. My husband has no problem sitting next to women. But these women would have a huuuuuge issue if my husband would sit down next to them. Which is why he doesn't, and he stands. But if they would throw a hissy fit should he sit down next to them, wouldn't it make sense for them to be willing to move so he can sit down? Because they don't want him sitting down next to him, but won't do anything to allow him to sit down either.

Again, he doesn't mind sitting down next to women. We're not ultra orthodox and he has no problem sitting next to women. But we live in a predominantly ultra orthodox community, and the women on the bus are ultra orthodox, and won't allow him to sit down next to them.

As for why don't we get a car... if we had the money to do so, maybe we would. But cars are disgustingly expensive here, and unless you're rich, you can't really afford to buy and maintain a car here.

[Austin]

Then everything that was advised for your husband would apply to the women who act like this. They can either sit next to him or they can stand or move. It's public transportation. Religion has no place in it whatsoever, no matter who is acting the fool.

[Jewess]

Then everything that was advised for your husband would apply to the women who act like this. They can either sit next to him or they can stand or move. It's public transportation. Religion has no place in it whatsoever, no matter who is acting the fool.

You're right. I've told my husband that, but he's too polite to do anything.

My point was, its not just these men on the williamsburg boro park bus who act like idiots when they don't make room for women to sit.

[Guest Anonymous]

You completely missed my point. My husband has no problem sitting next to women. But these women would have a huuuuuge issue if my husband would sit down next to them. Which is why he doesn't, and he stands. But if they would throw a hissy fit should he sit down next to them, wouldn't it make sense for them to be willing to move so he can sit down? Because they don't want him sitting down next to him, but won't do anything to allow him to sit down either.

I am confused. On what basis does your husband know that the woman would have a hissy fit on any given day? Are they the same women every time, and has he spoken to them about it?

From what you are saying, it sounds like your husband's problem may stem not from being 'too polite' but possibly from being insuffiiciently assertive to simply find an empty seat and sit on it.

[Jewess]

I am confused. On what basis does your husband know that the woman would have a hissy fit on any given day? Are they the same women every time, and has he spoken to them about it?

Because these are Israeli Chareidi women we're talking about, and we were enough involved in the community to know what the reaction would be like. I've definitely spoken to women there about it. Our community is only so large, so I do know a majority of the women here... And yes, the same time of day that my husband takes the bus, there usually are the same people commuting.

From what you are saying, it sounds like your husband's problem may stem not from being 'too polite' but possibly from being insuffiiciently assertive to simply find an empty seat and sit on it.

Hehe, tell me about it. Its a combination of both of those things. My husband comes from a culture of uber polite people, where they're all "you first", "no you first", "no you first"... and it cracks me up but also gets me annoyed. When we go on a packed bus together, I push him ahead of me, because if I don't, he won't "push" enough to actually hold his place and get on the bus. He's been nearly left behind sometimes.

But its also a combination of lack of assertiveness on top of that uber polite mentality.

[formergothardite]

It seems like having these strict segregation rules really does have a negative impact on you and your family Jewish.