Williamsburg Bus Makes Women Sit in the Back

[Jewess]

By that argument, you can say the fundie Christian stuff we criticise here treats men as lesser, and yeah, on that level, it does. But in reality, who's picking up the slack for that and having to pay the price? Women. If, in reality, women are treated as less, then I don't care what someone would say is explicitly the 'lesser sex'. A VF lacky can tell me all about how the submission model actually honors women and gives them respect, but until that's SHOWN, being told that doesn't convince me in the slightest.

Honestly, in that way I think the fundie Christians treat the men as lesser (also considering them to be horny f*cks controlled by their d*cks.

But thats about the only way fundie christians and ultra orthodox Jews are similar. Judaism doesn't believe in submission, as one biggie. Very biggie. And they're not treated as less. (And lest you think only women are required to dress a certain way, women are allowed some choice in their clothing wear so long as it conforms to certain rules, but hasidic men have stricter rules, also not being allowed to uncover their upper arms or legs or other things, and on top of that, they have to wear many layers, including one woolen layer, and a coat and a hat, even in the stifling heat of the summer. I would definitely NOT want to be a hasidic man. Women in their circles have it much easier.

[FaustianSlip]

It's not like gay men demand everyone wears what I believe are called "assless chaps" or lesbians demand everyone wears button down flannel shirts.

Okay, if anyone knows of a neighborhood like this, please let me know, because it would be epic. Just sayin'.

You know what this sounds like? Gang colours or football colours. It's generally seen by most people as wrong to have to dress in a certain way to have to access public areas or you are going to get disapproval at best.

Yeah, this is how it's starting to sound to me, as well, and I actually do understand some of the reasoning behind the black hats and modest dresses and stuff. I guess it would be disrespectful of me to go through Compton wearing a blue hoodie. And by "disrespectful," I mean "a great way to get shot in the face."

[Jewess]

No, you just implied (twice, now), that people who don't feel compelled to have their modes of public dress dictated by a fundamentalist religious community are being disrespectful as opposed to, say, just going about their daily lives, as I think most people do. I kind of doubt that the hipsters of Williamsburg, for instance, are waking up in the morning going, "Man, I'm really going to stick it to the Hasids today! Wait'll they get a load of my shorts and tank top!"

No. There aren't two choices- respectful and disrespectful. There's going out of your way to be respectful of other people's feelings. There's minding your own business and not being respectful or disrespectful. And there is being deliberately disrespectful. People who go to meah shearim (where there specifically are signs asking people to please be respectful in the types of clothes they wear and to please dress modestly) in clothes that are very immodest, or going into a synagogue dressed immodestly are disrespectful. But people who are just living their own life are just being. Not respectful per se, but not disrespectful either. Its not an either or situation. And I certainly don't think williamsburg and boro park people have a right to dictate to others how they live, especially as you said, because there are other types of people who live there, like hipsters.

Uh, did I say that? No, I didn't. Please don't put words in my mouth. If someone feels that they need to look down at the ground instead of gazing upon someone with two X chromosomes, I find that pretty out there, but that's their prerogative. It's certainly better than defacing advertisements, glaring at women deemed to be "immodest" or trying to compel people who aren't even Jewish, let alone Haredi, to comply with community standards via intimidation.

No, you yourself didn't say that, but I've heard that argument from way way way way way way way too many people, many of them Jews, many of them Modern Orthodox Jews, who get horribly offended when Hareidi men won't look at them because of their extreme modesty rules.

Again, didn't say (or even imply) that. Don't put words in my mouth. Aside from being a strawman argument, it comes across as pretty condescending.

I'm sorry. Wasn't a straw man argument, as I've heard people argue that line way too many times to count. But you're right, I shouldn't have assumed you felt that way.

I know what New Square and Monroe are, though at the end of the day, they're still located in the United States and are still bound by state and federal law. Do I think it would be very nice or considerate to ride a Vespa down the streets of Kiryas Joel on Shabbos while wearing a halter top and daisy dukes? No, but if someone did do that, it's probably within their rights to do so without, say, having rocks thrown at them, as has been known to happen in Haredi neighborhoods in Israel.

Throwing rocks at someone is never right. Two wrongs never make a right. But that doesn't make what those people are doing (riding a vespa while wearing a halter top and daisy dukes) any more correct.

Seriously? You would say that someone who chooses to publicly wear a kippah in a place with no Jewish population (or in a place that's hostile to Jews) is "asking for it" if they get harassed? That's just nuts to me, but okay.

Did I say "asking for it" if they get harassed? No. But at the same time, if there's a possibility of that happening, even if harassment is always wrong, wouldn't it just be better to be safe than sorry? And for the record, my husband looks Hareidi (even though we're really not), and he specifically doesn't dress hareidi in the slightest, and will tuck his peyot into a hat, or switch his type of kippa, when he's going to a place thats hostile towards Hareidim. Does he need to do that? No. Does it excuse bad behavior if he doesn't do that and people harass him? No. But that doesn't mean that doing such a thing isn't a good idea, even if not required.

I don't think the argument that we should always dress to avoid offending people reasonable at all, personally, but to each their own. There will always be someone who is offended by what you wear, do or say. Always. I'm sure I offend people daily with my disinclination to be fashion forward. In a society of adults,

You're right. You can't please everyone. But that doesn't mean its not a good idea to try not to wear something that would offend the vast majority of the population.

Personally, we have IDF t-shirts (present from people). My husband would never wear that in an Arab neighborhood of Jerusalem, nor in a Hareidi neighborhood, even if there are some people that wouldn't get offended. Thats just how we swing. We try not to offend people and maybe cater a bit too much to other people's sensitivities. Maybe we go overboard, but we'd rather go overboard this way than possibly do something that offends other people if we have a way around it.

Who's talking about "purposely do[ing] something that offends others"? There's a difference between walking down a public street, minding your own business, or getting onto a bus to go somewhere and sitting in the first available seat (as people generally do, unless they're living in the South during Jim Crow or something) and managing to offend someone with an extremely low threshold for what they consider to be immodesty and/or gender mixing and going into that same person's synagogue, say, wearing leggings and a tank top. The first is completely acceptable; people are not obligated (nor should they be) to bend to the will of the person in the community with the strictest dress code. The second would be wildly disrespectful, because presumably you know the community standards and are deliberately flouting them. That's not the case, however, with this bus. The bus is public property, being paid for by public tax dollars. Everyone's tax dollars, not just Haredi tax dollars. Given that, anyone who's prepared to pay the fare has every right to ride the bus, sitting in whatever seat they choose, wearing whatever they choose. That's part of living in society.

The people here purposely doing something to offend others are the people who never ever ever would take this bus, but want to travel to boro park/williamsburg to stage a sit in just to make a point that "how dare they be gender segregated". Sorry, thats not minding your own business and happening to offend others. Thats being deliberately provocative.

[Eponine]

The people here purposely doing something to offend others are the people who never ever ever would take this bus, but want to travel to boro park/williamsburg to stage a sit in just to make a point that "how dare they be gender segregated". Sorry, thats not minding your own business and happening to offend others. Thats being deliberately provocative.

I disagree. Well, I agree that it's deliberately being provocative, but that's the point of any protest isn't it? When I lived in Brooklyn I never went to Boro Park that often and I never took the bus to get there, but that bus line would still have been part of my community and funded by my tax dollars. I think that would give me the right to voice my dissent for a practice happening on a public bus line. If I were offended by the practice going on a short distance from my home I don't see why it would be inappropriate to join in a protest. If it were deemed acceptable for a public bus there what's to say it wouldn't be okay for the buses in my immediate neighborhood?

Even if I weren't a Brooklynite, though - I think the people who would travel from far away to protest would do so because they felt very strongly that women's civil rights were being violated in this instance. During the civil rights movement lots of northern activists traveled to the South to join in Jim Crow protests and marches - that's certainly not minding their own business and it was deliberately provoking others not at all in their community. But I wouldn't necessarily say it was wrong of them to do so. Obviously this one bus in Brooklyn isn't the same scale as that, and things get stickier when religion is involved, but I don't think it's always inappropriate to protest even a small thing outside of one's community.

[JesusFightClub]

This thread is now surreal ;)

An IDF tshirt, I would find extremely offensive. But it is your right to wear it in public. As I type, I am wearing a pro Palestinian tshirt. It says something a lot of folk here would disagree with. I imagine you would too ;)

The thing is, while I wouldn't go round to someone's house who I knew disagreed dressed like this or take a photo of myself so attired and post it to FJ, unpopular free speech shouldn't need to be stopped. If I saw you in your IDF shirt I wouldn't throw a stone. I wouldn't regard you as my best mate, but you shouldn't have to

not do it.

Clothing gives you a set of thoughts about the other person. Seeing your shirt I would think "fucking Zionist" and you seeing mine might think "fucking terrorist sympathiser". But we could keep the thoughts in our heads and agree this was free speech and people say stuff and look ways we do not like...

[Jewess]

This thread is now surreal ;)

An IDF tshirt, I would find extremely offensive. But it is your right to wear it in public. As I type, I am wearing a pro Palestinian tshirt. It says something a lot of folk here would disagree with. I imagine you would too ;)

The thing is, while I wouldn't go round to someone's house who I knew disagreed dressed like this or take a photo of myself so attired and post it to FJ, unpopular free speech shouldn't need to be stopped. If I saw you in your IDF shirt I wouldn't throw a stone. I wouldn't regard you as my best mate, but you shouldn't have to

not do it.

Clothing gives you a set of thoughts about the other person. Seeing your shirt I would think "fucking Zionist" and you seeing mine might think "fucking terrorist sympathiser". But we could keep the thoughts in our heads and agree this was free speech and people say stuff and look ways we do not like...

Lol I just need to point out that I am not pro the IDF, and I hope to move away, hopefully to the US, before my kids get drafted. We have those shirts because they were given to us, not because we support the cause. For the record.

Unpopular free speech shouldn't be forcefully stopped, but that doesn't mean I need to practice my "right to free speech whereever and whenever I damn well please".

[Patsy]

Okay, basic question for Jewess:

You don't think that gender segregation is discriminatory? You don't think making women sit in the back of the bus is a crappy way to treat women?

[Jewess]

Okay, basic question for Jewess:

You don't think that gender segregation is discriminatory? You don't think making women sit in the back of the bus is a crappy way to treat women?

I said straight out that I don't like it for a variety of reasons. I also said it doesn't affect me and if those women don't mind it, its none of my damn business.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Personally, I appreciate not having to worry about some perverted guy sit next to me (as happened way way way too many times to me on regular city buses in the US- picture horny man sticking his face in my breast and making crude remarks), but also being able to sit whereever in the bus I feel like it, whether front, back, middle or whatever.

Are there no perverted women out there? And what about a guy who doesn't want to sit next to another perverted guy any more than you do? Wow, sexism at work.

[Patsy]

I said straight out that I don't like it for a variety of reasons. I also said it doesn't affect me and if those women don't mind it, its none of my damn business.

Thanks, I missed that.

[Jewess]

Are there no perverted women out there? And what about a guy who doesn't want to sit next to another perverted guy any more than you do? Wow, sexism at work.

Fortunately, I've never had a woman trying to cop a feel on the bus the way I have had men do to me.

[Jewess]

Thanks, I missed that.

For the record, I don't dislike it because I find it discriminatory, rather, because I find it inconvenient and I like to be able to sit next to my husband. Not because I think it treats women as "lesser".

[Boogalou]

I said straight out that I don't like it for a variety of reasons. I also said it doesn't affect me and if those women don't mind it, its none of my damn business.

I'm kind of late to the party here, but basically if it doesn't affect you and the people being opressed are OK with it then everything is fine and dandy, even though public tax dollars are supporting it. Is that what you are saying? Do you not see anything wrong with that?

[Jewess]

I'm kind of late to the party here, but basically if it doesn't affect you and the people being opressed are OK with it then everything is fine and dandy, even though public tax dollars are supporting it. Is that what you are saying? Do you not see anything wrong with that?

I don't think its oppression, those women don't view it as oppression, and there are much worse things that our tax dollars are paying for, so how about make a fuss about the things that are really truly hurting people and the people being hurt want it to stop?

[LilMissMetaphor]

Fortunately, I've never had a woman trying to cop a feel on the bus the way I have had men do to me.

Thank Yahweh, right? Because that would be really perverted as opposed to just run-of-the-mill perverted? And curious, are you arguing that gender segregation results in less sexual harassment/abuse?

[Jewess]

Thank Yahweh, right? Because that would be really perverted as opposed to just run-of-the-mill perverted? And curious, are you arguing that gender segregation results in less sexual harassment/abuse?

I'm not sure why you're talking all "Y..w.h" and all. Uhh... Because I'm not a messianic nor do I ever refer to God as Y..w.h and even writing that seems blasphemous and disrespectful to me.

No, thank God I've never had any woman trying to cop a feel from me so I can feel totally comfortable sitting next to women on the bus. Not that women trying to cop a feel is any more perverted than a guy trying to do so. Its both harassment/molestation. Just in my experience guys are more likely to do that than women.

No, I am not arguing that gender segregation results in less harassment or abuse. I'm just saying I personally prefer to sit next to women than next to men, especially because I try my very best not to touch any men that are not my husband, and it also gets uncomfortable trying to do that when sitting next to a man. Bus seats are only so big.

[Patsy]

I don't think its oppression, those women don't view it as oppression, and there are much worse things that our tax dollars are paying for, so how about make a fuss about the things that are really truly hurting people and the people being hurt want it to stop?

Oh fucking COME ON. Really? "Well, Steve Maxwell just said a dickish thing, but there's FEMALE CIRCUMCISIONS GOING ON IN AFRICA, Y'ALL! So stop complaining about it and pointing out how stupid my stance on it is!"

[pomology]

So no one should ever walk around Williamsburg or Boro Park in jeans because the community might be "offended"? Give me a break.

All I can think when I see this is about hipster in Williamsburg and their skinny jeans.

And also, that if Ultra Orthodox Jews can't handle looking at skinny jeans, they should go live in a cave or something, because society shouldn't have to function by their ideals, they have to learn to deal with society as it is. Otherwise, they should find a way to avoid interactions with society at large. Same with fundies of all stripes--Christian, Muslim,etc. If you don't want to see other people dressed a certain way, go live in a cave and make your own idealized society far away from the rest of humanity. But if you want to interact with other people STFU and mind your own fucking business.

[Jewess]

Oh fucking COME ON. Really? "Well, Steve Maxwell just said a dickish thing, but there's FEMALE CIRCUMCISIONS GOING ON IN AFRICA, Y'ALL! So stop complaining about it and pointing out how stupid my stance on it is!"

Your attitude doesn't exactly make you sound smart or make anyone agree with you. And its one thing to get annoyed at something stupid a person says or does, its quite another thing to go camp outside his house and stage a protest. If you think every little thing is worth a protest, why aren't you camping outside the maxwell's home or at any of the events they go to?

Because some things are worth protesting physically about, and some things are enough a big deal to say "OMG can you believe it" but not actually make a whole huge stink about it in person and let it affect your day to day life.

[Boogalou]

I don't think its oppression, those women don't view it as oppression, and there are much worse things that our tax dollars are paying for, so how about make a fuss about the things that are really truly hurting people and the people being hurt want it to stop?

Not a single woman who has ever ridden or will ever ride that bus view it as oppression? I don't believe that.

Also, I have never ridden those buses, and it appears you have, so I have a question. Where I live everyone gets on the bus at the front near the driver so they can pay/show the driver their bus pass. The courtesy seating (I guess you could call it) for people with children/disabilities/in wheel chairs etc. are right at the front. Where are they on these buses? This is especially relevant for the wheelchair question because on the buses I ride they also have a ramp at the front and a kind of seat belt thing and some people require the assistance of driver to get situated. Also, are the only people riding these buses very observant Jews or are there other groups on them as well. Finally, we obviously disagree on whether this is hurting people so I will skip ahead to my next point that just because there are worse things going on with tax dollars we should completely ignore this one is crazy. That would mean everyone could only ever focus on one issue.

ETA: cross posted with Patsy, who is right on.

ETA again: (people keep posting) just because you have decided something is not worth protesting doesn't make it so.

[Patsy]

Your attitude doesn't exactly make you sound smart or make anyone agree with you. And its one thing to get annoyed at something stupid a person says or does, its quite another thing to go camp outside his house and stage a protest. If you think every little thing is worth a protest, why aren't you camping outside the maxwell's home or at any of the events they go to?

Because some things are worth protesting physically about, and some things are enough a big deal to say "OMG can you believe it" but not actually make a whole huge stink about it in person and let it affect your day to day life.

People have different cut-off points for what's worth protesting. Um, shocker?

And it does seem a lot like an attempt at distraction to say "Well, you guys, it's not even that important, jeez, move on" after you've had a fair bit to say about it. Not that "there's worse stuff so let's just ignore this one" ever makes sense.

[Jewess]

Not a single woman who has ever ridden or will ever ride that bus view it as oppression? I don't believe that.

Also, I have never ridden those buses, and it appears you have, so I have a question. Where I live everyone gets on the bus at the front near the driver so they can pay/show the driver their bus pass. The courtesy seating (I guess you could call it) for people with children/disabilities/in wheel chairs etc. are right at the front. Where are they on these buses? This is especially relevant for the wheelchair question because on the buses I ride they also have a ramp at the front and a kind of seat belt thing and some people require the assistance of driver to get situated.

I'll be honest, its been 7 years since I've been on those buses, so could be my memory is incorrect or I'm mixing them up with how the buses in Israel are... but I think the wheelchair ramp and seatbelt is at the middle of the bus, and people with wheelchairs get on in the back. And there's a place to pay at the back also.

Also, are the only people riding these buses very observant Jews or are there other groups on them as well.

Only Hasidic Jews, as its a bus line that goes directly from one Hasidic community to another, with no other stops, and only Hasidim generally take that route.

Finally, we obviously disagree on whether this is hurting people so I will skip ahead to my next point that just because there are worse things going on with tax dollars we should completely ignore this one is crazy. That would mean everyone could only ever focus on one issue.

ETA again: (people keep posting) just because you have decided something is not worth protesting doesn't make it so.

[Jewess]

I'll be honest, its been 7 years since I've been on those buses, so could be my memory is incorrect or I'm mixing them up with how the buses in Israel are... but I think the wheelchair ramp and seatbelt is at the middle of the bus, and people with wheelchairs get on in the back. And there's a place to pay at the back also. Only Hasidic Jews, as its a bus line that goes directly from one Hasidic community to another, with no other stops, and only Hasidim generally take that route.

You know, this thread and some people's responses in it really make me think of this thread- viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4220 What is a fundy? And it seems the mutual consensus is "Fundies believe that only their way is the right way, and they try to force other people to do things their way."

Come on. You have a problem with gender segregation. These people obviously don't. But you think that your belief that gender segregation is WRONG is the ONLY valid viewpoint, and therefore, even if people disagree with you, and prefer segregation, you want to force them to live by your standards of right and wrong, whether by coercion, litigation, legislation, etc...

Seriously. How is that soooo different than people who think abortion is wrong/evil, you think its fine, but they want to make sure that you can't have an abortion because they think its wrong and it goes against their morals and what they think is right and wrong, so they try to coerce you, legislate, etc... to try to force their opinion of morality and right and wrong upon you.

You'd call the anti abortion people hateful fundamentalists, but how is that so different than what you're trying to do, to try to stop people from living how they want to, because it seems morally repugnant to you?

Honestly, I think in many ways, freejinger is a hotbed of fundamentalists. Not religious fundamentalists, per se, but anti religious fundamentalists, trying to force your morals on other people who don't view things the same way.

Just my 2 cents.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

The segregated buses are mostly set up to serve demand by communities (not necessarily individuals, that's important) that want the buses segregated, and they travel between areas that are majority Haredi, the ridership is majority Haredi, but it's certainly not only Haredi people riding them, you can find complaints from more "okay with mixing" people complaining about it, including in Israel. Also some not officially segregated lines can end up being segregated de-facto if there's only pro-segregation people riding for the first half of the route so it naturally segregated, and then some secular person gets on midway (often having purposely avoided the officially segregated route, even), but the drivers won't generally intervene - and you can read complaints about that.

The charter buses of course are a completely different thing, I don't see any complaints about those (including in the US).

Completely aside from just buses though you can find all kinds of debate over whether the extreme segregation of the sexes in all aspects of life actually makes people MORE likely to "stray" because of the whole forbidden fruit idea. Also people talking about how such extreme segregation is a new thing, not traditional. THAT particular bit is interesting, it's another instance of people insisting they are recreating the past while actually making up a new culture. (Reading a book about some aspects of that now...)

Now I'm imagine some private bus service that requires assless chaps... I need coffee. :)

[Jewess]

The segregated buses are mostly set up to serve demand by communities (not necessarily individuals, that's important) that want the buses segregated, and they travel between areas that are majority Haredi, the ridership is majority Haredi, but it's certainly not only Haredi people riding them, you can find complaints from more "okay with mixing" people complaining about it, including in Israel. Also some not officially segregated lines can end up being segregated de-facto if there's only pro-segregation people riding for the first half of the route so it naturally segregated, and then some secular person gets on midway (often having purposely avoided the officially segregated route, even), but the drivers won't generally intervene - and you can read complaints about that.

Thats more in Israel. AFAIK, this particular line in Brooklyn appears to be strictly Hasidic.