Shiny Happy People: A Duggar and IBLP Documentary

[Jasmar]

Ugh, I had to quit listening when Alex Harris started yammering on about how even though he may have some serious disagreements with his parents (dad, at this point, since his mom died around 15? years ago), they had raised him to always follow Jesus, always love others.

Bull. Shit. He says this on the heels of listing his credentials (Harvard Law, worked for both Gorsich and Kennedy, etc). Where he presumably spent his considerable education, talent, and charm working to pass laws to harm or even destory people. He is a massive hypocrite, and no one is calling him on it. Sure he may have evolved his thinking about Christianity and politics (which again, he’s not explaining exactly what he means by that), but to claim he’s been all about loving people all his life is a damned lie. And no one is asking him the hard questions, or pushing for clarification on his vague answers and claims. He’s still writing for the Gospel Coalition, for Pete’s sake!

This family in particular makes me very angry. I think it’s partly because they’re from the same suburb I raised my kids in, and as Christian homeschoolers we were very aware of the Harrises. When Alex’s mom was dying, the homeschool moms I knew organized a meal train for her. We had good friends who went to Household of Faith, which they started. When I was on my way out of church on the heels of my divorce, Gregg and his youngest son joined our church, and my kids and I were scheduled to work coffee team with them the week before I left for good. He also apparently lived in the suburb my kids and I had moved to post-divorce, because I used to run into his minivan at our Fred Meyer fairly regularly.

I share all that because I don’t trust the Harrises one little bit. I think they’re slippery and dangerous because they’re so well spoken, connected, attractive, slick, educated…a very pretty, persuasive package covering variations on the same old toxic, patriarchal beliefs. Just rearrange a few details and say you’ve grown, without saying exactly how you’ve grown. Alex is trying (and succeeding) to present himself as an enlightened, non-toxic Christian. No one is probing past the surface of what he’s saying. And that makes me mad.

[hoipolloi]

4 hours ago, Jasmar said:

He is a massive hypocrite, and no one is calling him on it. Sure he may have evolved his thinking about Christianity and politics (which again, he’s not explaining exactly what he means by that), but to claim he’s been all about loving people all his life is a damned lie. And no one is asking him the hard questions, or pushing for clarification on his vague answers and claims. He’s still writing for the Gospel Coalition, for Pete’s sake!...Alex is trying (and succeeding) to present himself as an enlightened, non-toxic Christian. No one is probing past the surface of what he’s saying.

Thank you for all of this. This is exactly my impression of Alex Harris. After all, heʻs still involved with The Rebelution. Even though the regular staff there are all younger, they are still putting out purity culture shite and homophobic diatribes, all in the name of love and Jesus, of course.

 

 

[Jasmar]

I’d love to know how the doc producers found Alex and decided to use him.

[marmalade]

Were the Harrises even involved with IBLP,? I thought that the dad (whose name escapes me...Greg?) was pretty much his own island of hate. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Remember how IBLP absolutely worshipped Josh Harris’s books? They were like dating bibles for the Duggars.

[marmalade]

I just remember the Harrises being really involved with the homeschooling movement. 

I presume that all the fundie teens read I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Still preaching Purity Culture, they probably continue to pass the book down to younger siblings. . 

Edited July 6, 2023 by marmalade
Rogue letter!

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, marmalade said:

Were the Harrises even involved with IBLP,? I thought that the dad (whose name escapes me...Greg?) was pretty much his own island of hate. 

It's all a circle jerk. Meaning, they players are both creating a toxic soup and drinking it too.

Greg Harris was deeply involved in the the homeschooling movement and HSLDA. I believe HSLDA created an award in his name that was bestowed on Bill Gothard. The Harris boys were very much raised with theology very similar to IBLP. Deeply conservative, deeply patriarchal. One of Gothard's twists on the the authority/headship teaching was that if a person was obedient, then good things would happen. And if a person was disobedient to the headship, bad things would happen. The Harris boys put something of the same "health and wealth" spin on their own teachings. For example, the closer a person adhered to the sexual purity and courtship model, the more their marriage would be blessed. The best sex ever! 

The Harris were more of the covenant/Sovereign Grace theology versus the Duggars who are Baptist. But IBLP is parachurch and the tentacles reach across denominations. 

I see the beliefs as very much intertwined whether the Harris's ever attended IBLP conference or not. More likely, they attended homeschool conferences steeped in IBLP teaching, and they took that teaching home with them. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by noseybutt

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

1 hour ago, noseybutt said:

It's all a circle jerk. Meaning, they players are both creating a toxic soup and drinking it too.

Greg Harris was deeply involved in the the homeschooling movement and HSLDA. I believe HSLDA created an award in his name that was bestowed on Bill Gothard. The Harris boys were very much raised with theology very similar to IBLP. Deeply conservative, deeply patriarchal. One of Gothard's twists on the the authority/headship teaching was that if a person was obedient, then good things would happen. And if a person was disobedient to the headship, bad things would happen. The Harris boys put something of the same "health and wealth" spin on their own teachings. For example, the closer a person adhered to the sexual purity and courtship model, the more their marriage would be blessed. The best sex ever! 

The Harris were more of the covenant/Sovereign Grace theology versus the Duggars who are Baptist. But IBLP is parachurch and the tentacles reach across denominations. 

I see the beliefs as very much intertwined whether the Harris's ever attended IBLP conference or not. More likely, they attended homeschool conferences steeped in IBLP teaching, and they took that teaching home with them. 

So y’all know that how Vision Forum got started because Doug Phillips worked for HSLDA and stole their mailing list. Also Greg Harris is connected closely to Peter Bradrick’s! Wife! Father!
 

And in my world of IBLP/ATI (2000-2008) Josh Harris and IKDG was liberal. Most of us had to hide the 2-3 copies we had gotten somehow and sneak them around to each other to even read it. We came from an even stricter form of the courtship movement where the parents had a MUCH stronger involvement than either kid. Parents know better of course. The younger Harris books were even less passed around. 

[noseybutt]

7 minutes ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

So y’all know that how Vision Forum got started because Doug Phillips worked for HSLDA and stole their mailing list. Also Greg Harris is connected closely to Peter Bradrick’s! Wife! Father!
 

And in my world of IBLP/ATI (2000-2008) Josh Harris and IKDG was liberal. Most of us had to hide the 2-3 copies we had gotten somehow and sneak them around to each other to even read it. We came from an even stricter form of the courtship movement where the parents had a MUCH stronger involvement than either kid. Parents know better of course. The younger Harris books were even less passed around. 

Not sure whether to laugh or cry.

The big mystery to me over the courtship models was that none of the people teaching it had ever been through it themselves.

There was a fad in my homeschooling world, for a hot minute, of parents contemplating ways they could build family compounds so that their adult children could live with them forever. And it was the same schtick. They all wanted to control their children and none of them had ever been similarly controlled by their own parent. 

What is good for the gosling is not good for either the goose or the gander.

[marmalade]

10 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Not sure whether to laugh or cry.

The big mystery to me over the courtship models was that none of the people teaching it had ever been through it themselves.

There was a fad in my homeschooling world, for a hot minute, of parents contemplating ways they could build family compounds so that their adult children could live with them forever. And it was the same schtick. They all wanted to control their children and none of them had ever been similarly controlled by their own parent. 

What is good for the gosling is not good for either the goose or the gander.

The Duggars seem to be accomplishing this with most of their sons. Even the married ones have returned to the compound, or very close to it. 

[noseybutt]

4 minutes ago, marmalade said:

The Duggars seem to be accomplishing this with most of their sons. Even the married ones have returned to the compound, or very close to it. 

Is it by golden handcuff? As in, they can make more money working in the Duggar businesses rather than striking out on their own?

[marmalade]

59 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Is it by golden handcuff? As in, they can make more money working in the Duggar businesses rather than striking out on their own?

They have all been set up in businesses owned by JB, or given a payout to start an offshoot business (Jason). 

Long way to answer yes. 😃

[JermajestyDuggar]

Justin is the odd one out. I can’t believe he left the minute he turned 18 and moved down to Texas. I wish more of the boys had moved away.

[Bethy]

3 hours ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

And in my world of IBLP/ATI (2000-2008) Josh Harris and IKDG was liberal. Most of us had to hide the 2-3 copies we had gotten somehow and sneak them around to each other to even read it. We came from an even stricter form of the courtship movement where the parents had a MUCH stronger involvement than either kid. Parents know better of course. The younger Harris books were even less passed around. 

I wasn't specifically a part of IBLP/ATI, and I came of age a little earlier than your date range, but my parents were Gothard-adjacent and my fundie-lite church had a pastor through the 90s who I now realize was VERY steeped in Gothard. Lots of umbrella of protection, a push for modesty (they stopped short of telling the women in the church that they had to wear dresses at church or at home, but did legislate that child/teen girls had to wear dresses to all church services, and hinted quite broadly that "no woman would want to wear pants unless she desired to draw male attention to her private parts." One of the first big "issue" sermon series this pastor preached when he arrived was on courtship instead of dating. That was pushed HARD, to the point where we were asked to raise our hands at the end of a Sunday service and pledge that we would not even have a romantic thought toward a member of the opposite sex before marriage. Then IKDG came out and everybody was like "Oh wow, this is so revolutionary" and I was like, "No, this is what my pastor has been teaching since I was in elementary school." Nothing new to see there, for me at least.

[SorenaJ]

12 minutes ago, Bethy said:

I wasn't specifically a part of IBLP/ATI, and I came of age a little earlier than your date range, but my parents were Gothard-adjacent and my fundie-lite church had a pastor through the 90s who I now realize was VERY steeped in Gothard. Lots of umbrella of protection, a push for modesty (they stopped short of telling the women in the church that they had to wear dresses at church or at home, but did legislate that child/teen girls had to wear dresses to all church services, and hinted quite broadly that "no woman would want to wear pants unless she desired to draw male attention to her private parts." 

That’s so weird. When it’s windy, I wear trousers to church, because I feel like a skirt would blow up and expose, well, everything. If you live in a windy area, trousers can be the more modest option if you don’t want to flash everything. 

[ElizaB]

13 hours ago, noseybutt said:

Is it by golden handcuff? As in, they can make more money working in the Duggar businesses rather than striking out on their own?

It also is because a lot of these kids haven’t been given the necessary skills to actually strike out on their own. They have a sub par education, limited social skills,  and lack of knowledge of the outside world. Their parents never equipped them to move out and make it on their own. 

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

11 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

That’s so weird. When it’s windy, I wear trousers to church, because I feel like a skirt would blow up and expose, well, everything. If you live in a windy area, trousers can be the more modest option if you don’t want to flash everything. 

The large 99.9% all IBLP member church I was in during my teens was skirts below knee only. Many weren’t allowed to cut their hair or wear makeup. None of us were allowed to “touch” opposite gender on church property — not to mention never be caught alone. Even 2-3 people in a mixed group could cause an adult to stop by and make sure you weren’t being ”defrauding” to each other. Guys and girls were always separated for Sunday school and Wednesday teen activities. We were split in half for choir practice — with an aisle between us. We would do VBS and it would be two girls paired and two boys paired for each group that would lead a class never ever allowed 1/1. I won’t even get into how questioning any belief at any time would result in massive consequences (immediate and long-term). 
 

What else. Oh right. My story about how much more modest skirts are than pants. I was walking up the stairs of the front of the church just before the service which is when all the groups of teens would stand outside with a few adults to be sure nothing could go on… and I stepped on the front of my long broomstick skirt (very popular with us “rebels” at the time because at least we looked bohemian hippy and not just weird cult member) and my skirt pulled all the way down in a puddle on the ground. Oh but I was wearing a slip right to ensure no see through immodesty … but in my haste to pick up my pooled thousand yards of fabric skirt from around my ankles i grabbed my slip and somehow managed to have it yank part way off as well. Major face palm in any situation but there??

i remember one girl getting a talking to and her mother was drug into a multiple other moms’ conversation and their family somewhat ostracized because she dared to wear knee high black boots with her knee length skirt one day. No one dared to wear pants or shorts and sleeveless dresses were strongly frowned upon and no one really dared to do it out of fear of being talked to about it. Everything was below the knee. Some girls even would pin the slits of their skirts together because the “flash of leg” as you walk — never mind the straight skirt pinned shut makes your hips wiggle like a penguin. Lmao There were girls who weren’t allowed to wear tshirts with writing or v necks. Of course anything midriff or strapless outlawed. 
 

One day they found a “pornographic” magazine page rolled up in a toilet paper holder in the mens rooms. I later heard it was a pretty tame like Cosmo type photo. Give me a break. But that raised hell among the boys. They basically grilled each one separately for weeks to figure out who left it. Probably was one of the dang dads! Ha. 

1 hour ago, ElizaB said:

It also is because a lot of these kids haven’t been given the necessary skills to actually strike out on their own. They have a sub par education, limited social skills,  and lack of knowledge of the outside world. Their parents never equipped them to move out and make it on their own. 

I have often believed this is the reason they do it. By controlling kids’ education (and lack thereof) and refusing to let them go to college (in most cases) and demanding total And utter obedience and subservience to the family and church that they end up creating a generation of people who literally would have to dramatically shift mentally, emotionally, financially in order to even make it. Couple it with God will be angry and the world thinks you’re weird because you never learned how to behave and act and think normally? It has been debilitating for thousands and impossible for some and very few have actually MADE it out and MADE IT WELL in their adult lives. 

[Cam]

23 hours ago, ElizaB said:

It also is because a lot of these kids haven’t been given the necessary skills to actually strike out on their own. They have a sub par education, limited social skills,  and lack of knowledge of the outside world. Their parents never equipped them to move out and make it on their own. 

I agree with most of this, but when it comes to the Duggars, they had how many years (well over 10) of being on reality tv that took them literally all over the world. These kids saw vastly more of the outside world than most quiverful families. More than many non-quiverful families, too! My non-fundie family barely traveled anywhere when I was a kid! Sure, Duggar kids weren’t taught to be “open” to other ways of living, but all that traveling, various public appearances and all that time spent with a tv crew filming in your house for years and years provided a whole heck of a lot of room for observation to see that the way you’re living isn’t all that’s out there. 

Really, the Duggar siblings, especially the older ones, had massive opportunities to witness that the world is much larger than the four walls of the TTH and that there are other ways besides religious adherence to a cult to be a good person and have a good life. Sure, being on a reality show no doubt had it’s drawbacks, but imo, 19KAC and CO afforded them a lot of privilege. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Cam

[Bethy]

13 hours ago, Cam said:

Really, the Duggar siblings, especially the older ones, had massive opportunities to witness that the world is much larger than the four walls of the TTH and that there are other ways besides religious adherence to a cult to be a good person and have a good life. Sure, being on a reality show no doubt had it’s drawbacks, but imo, 19KAC and CO afforded them a lot of privilege. 

Plus, being on the show made them household names, which meant that when Jinger was ready to write her book, she had a ready-made audience. If you're trying to get a book contract, particularly for nonfiction, the publishing house is going to want you to have a social media following of like 10,000 to even think about offering you a contract. An average former homeschool SAHD who sees the rottenness of Gothard's teaching and wants to write about her experiences might have had a life with experiences no less difficult than Jinger's (particularly if JB's claim that crimes such as Josh committed against his sisters are fairly common in those circles) would never have the platform she'd need to even GET a book contract to get her truth out there. So Jinger can make the NY Times Bestseller list, but most former fundie daughters could never.

[bea]

and now Josh Harris is a life coach with a podcast.

BLEH.

[SassyPants]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:58 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

Justin is the odd one out. I can’t believe he left the minute he turned 18 and moved down to Texas. I wish more of the boys had moved away.

And not popping out kid after kid-

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Josh Harris is the Absolute. Last. Person. I would ever take life advice from.

But he'll make a mint from this new gig.

Which is just like his old gig but with different advice.

[viii]

Didn’t Josh Harris recant his book IKDG and apologized for it? 

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 minutes ago, viii said:

Didn’t Josh Harris recant his book IKDG and apologized for it? 

Yes. He’s divorced now too. But I personally think he probably is still deconstructing. I feel like taking advice from him is like taking advice from Jinger. 

[Jasmar]

This does not surprise me in the least. The Harris men have quite the talent and penchant for making a living off of styling themselves as leaders and giving terrible advice.