(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 38: Can't Believe I'm Typing This, but YAY Bobye Holt

[KimJongJimBob]

6 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I know I've been gone a very long time and I dont have a ton of time to hang out, as much as I'd love to!  I havent been keeping up with the case a ton but this is way too juicy to not try and catch up!

Glad I'm not the only one who was drawn back because of this mess!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, Speedy said:

You're likely right. I have maybe two memories from that age and even then they are hazy enough that if someone I trusted, like a family member who was present, told me something slightly different happened I'd likely believe them. If they repeatedly and publicly stated it, my own memory might get even less clear. Memories from that young are usually much more easily changed/forgotten. I was just curious if we knew for sure one way or the other, not that it really matters with everything else the family has done to cover up and minimize what Josh did

This.  I have a handful of memories from that age and I believe they're accurate as they were corroborated by family.  And they are innocuous pleasant memories, so no one would have a reason to lie either way.  But if my family had said they weren't accurate and didn't happen, or replaced them with an altered version, I'd trust my family over my own memory.

[Melbelle]

20 minutes ago, Daisy said:

I just can’t get over how jovial Josh is. Joking with the court clerk, shaking Derricks hand, in general appearing to be in high spirits. Dude, you are on trial for possessing CSA! This is serious. I think he really thinks he’s going to get off. 

I think it's likely this is what he was coached to do by his lawyers.  Appear relaxed, be polite, even friendly, try to come across as a nice guy.  Appearing too serious can appear as being rude or angry, so I'm sure it's a fine balance for what lawyers prefer.  Does anyone know if JB put forth enough money for any mock juries?  If so, this could factor into any coaching on facial expressions as well.  But also...he's been called Smuggar for years for a very good reason, it's just as likely he's leaning into his smug nature!

[FluffySnowball]

23 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

Poor Joy-Anna...

Josh, along with his parents, brought so much sadness, trauma, and distress to his siblings, it’s hardly fathomable. I feel really sorry for them.

What makes matters even worse is that his deeds are painful since such a long time. His sisters (and all siblings, I guess) must have been traumatized when the molestation happened, then they had to face the previous scandals and the public exposure, now during the trial, they need to relive it again. It’s like a never ending hell he brought down on them. 

[Gobsmacked]

27 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

So much yes. It's just Josh, for the most part. Not any of his many brothers. None of the brothers-in-law. Not even Jim Bob! 

The only similar thing I can think of that matches up (TV show, many kids, CSA) is the Willis family. And as messed up as that was, the mom got the kids out of the situation once the police got involved. Josh is on trial and there Anna sits.

I really think it's a combo of things. Brainwashing, gaslighting, fear of hell, fear of being stuck alone having to raise 7 kids without the Duggar money helping... but also? I think that Anna and possibly some of the others might not quite get exactly why this is such a big deal to people. He might have looked at some pictures. They were horrible sinful pictures, sure, but they were just pictures. As long as he repents and prays about it what's the big deal?

I think it's notable that this time he did NOT make a tearful apology and talk about repenting, like he has with his past "indiscretions". He knew this was a big deal. He knew this was go-to-jail illegal. 

And he absolutely knew that stuff was on that hard drive. I'm certain he's the one who put it there, but even in the highly unlikely scenario that he wasn't the one who downloaded it... he knew it was there. Which means he had seen it. He could have deleted it, he could have reported it, if he wasn't the one who downloaded it in the first place he could have been the hero and reported it to the police the minute he knew it was there.

But he didn't. It was there, for months, and when Homeland Security showed up to raid the car lot, he stood out there like a doofus asking "what's this about, did someone download some child porn?" and "Oh, was it uploaded or downloaded?"

He's so guilty.

Whose mind immediately goes to "child porn" when cops show up to raid a car lot? I'd have guessed money shenanigans, stolen cars, or drugs first, in that situation.

When I first heard about the raid I immediately thought money laundering. Both Josh and J-B. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 minutes ago, punkiepie said:

It’s like Brain Laundrie, when they pulled over by the police. And he was all joking around with the police, making light of the situation, as if to say, see I’m cool, I didn’t do anything wrong, she’s the crazy one. Meanwhile, Gabby was having an emotional breakdown in the car.  That’s exactly what it reminds me off.

It’s some mix of narcissism and sociopathy and assholery. I had a boyfriend like that. He was the biggest schmoozer and could win a room over in like 2 minutes. But give him 20 minutes and then you see that he’s a real asshole. 

Thanks.  I have an ex with a NPD diagnosis and if this were him up there his demeanor would convince a lot of people he couldn't possibly do it.  I guess Josh not playing to the audience in a way to appear innocent threw me, but yeah.  His narcissism could be strong enough that he might still think he's walking free from this.  

[HermioneSparrow]

20 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I think they are all going to support Josh. I don't know, its just a feeling I am getting. They might hate what he does but maybe some feel he is a sick person. Jill is really the only wild card. 

I completely agree. As much as we want to believe they have a moral compass, I think they don't. But I'd love to be proven wrong so let's wait and see what happens.

[neuroticcat]

9 minutes ago, Ms. Brightside said:

I’m guessing Joy was young enough that even if she remembered it one way, the way it was downplayed would be enough to make her question that. When you’re five, people tell you things all the time about how you experience the world… that classic: you fall down, and a parent exclaims “oh you’re ok!” when you look up at them, so you hop up and keep playing. We know this was massively swept under the rug and the girls were repeatedly told it wasn’t a big deal. As a five-year old, if that’s what you’re told and that’s how everyone around you is acting, you might believe it and move on with your life and the memory wouldn’t stick they way you remembered it… it would stick the way you were taught to remember it by people brushing it off after like it was no big deal. 

This. And the ATI cult was 100 percent about redefining reality in every way. So whatever they said would have been the truth.

Also, even if someone has worked through past abuse, to see it all laid bare, to see public response and horror, to have it named as the evil it was is huge and important but also retraumatizing.

Finally, I wonder if the family that does support Josh at whatever level isn’t having a bit of a red pill moment. I mean, I can see a reality where he confessed just enough (like I was back to watching adult porn) and mixing in (but look how bad Caleb is - it was him and he hid it so I would get blamed if he was caught), or whatever. I could see a scenario where they don’t exactly support him, but they are suspicious enough of the world’s systems like basic counseling or law court and then they believed enough of what he said that they perhaps thought it would all come out like the Danica trial or something?

Reporter on Twitter says Matthew Waller was called to the stand since he was working at the car lot that spring. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Matthew Waller appears to be changing his tune from what he told the prosecution in investigation.  

 

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Matthew Waller appears to be changing his tune from what he told the prosecution in investigation.  

 

I'm sure the jury will take note. I would. 

[The Mother Dust]

1 hour ago, theotherelise said:

Oh my God. Just saw in my searching of these records that Caleb Williams has filed for visitation of the child of the survivor of his assault.

Does anyone know if Caleb Williams has any known instances in his history, of sex crimes against minors?  Not trying to downplay any crimes against adults, but I'm thinking that if the defense is trying to put the blame on Caleb instead of Josh, that at least the prosecution can say that Caleb's crimes are not the pedophilic variety, as awful as they may be otherwise.  I think it would be a powerful thing to say, that of the two of them, only Josh has that history with minors.  

[theotherelise]

Yeah, Anna Darling on Twitter is a local reporter and updating on the breaks. I feel like everyone here knows to take updates from The Sun with a grain of salt (or 10). 

Darling's thread during lunch break: 

 

 

Just now, The Mother Dust said:

Does anyone know if Caleb Williams has any known instances in his history, of sex crimes against minors?  Not trying to downplay any crimes against adults, but I'm thinking that if the defense is trying to put the blame on Caleb instead of Josh, that at least the prosecution can say that Caleb's crimes are not the pedophilic variety, as awful as they may be otherwise.  I think it would be a powerful thing to say, that of the two of them, only Josh has that history with minors.  

Caleb's victim was over 13 and under 17. He was 26. He has not been charged with any other crimes.

It does seem like Josh's history and the ages of the victims is an important distinction.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

So Matthew Waller originally told investigators he didn't know Josh's password, now says it rings a bell.  And he was the only employee of the car lot at that time.

WHO would insert themselves into this in order to create reasonable doubt for Josh?

 

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

Yeah, Anna Darling on Twitter is a local reporter and updating on the breaks. I feel like everyone here knows to take updates from The Sun with a grain of salt (or 10). 

Darling's thread during lunch break: 

 

 

One of my favorite closing arguments with respect to investigating a negative:

Q - did you investigate whether aliens committed this crime?

A - no...

Q - how about a supernatural being?

A - no.... there was no evidence that either of those things could have possibly been involved.

Q - but you didnt write that in your report!

Argument - members of the jury, do you see how ridiculous that sounds?  No one writes out reports that they DIDNT see something, they follow leads that are prudent and possibly fruitful.  The fact that something wasnt followed up on based on the lack of evidence that a fact did not exist is sufficient.

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

So Matthew Waller originally told investigators he didn't know Josh's password, now says it rings a bell.  And he was the only employee of the car lot at that time.

WHO would insert themselves into this in order to create reasonable doubt for Josh?

 

So he is willing to make himself a suspect?

[neuroticcat]

Also, I think for all Josh’s victims, everything enters a different realm when your your own kids reach that age. For many, that’s when a new understanding of trauma/anger/and all the rest emerges. 

[postscript]

2 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I was just joking.... I agree with you but I have a feeling she didn't pay for those. If JB didn't it was the defense team. 

If anyone on the defense team paid for Anna’s outfits, it got charged to the legal bill, which means it will ultimately be paid for by Jim Bob. Defense counsel isn’t in the business of providing free outfits to client’s wives.  I am not surprised she has been advised to wear black. Black or white are common colors for family/friends. I’m surprised she’s been advised to go with a young professional look as opposed to her usual modern modest homemaker style. They would do better letting her be herself. 

As a law school graduate and someone who has expressed an interest in criminal defense, it makes sense for Derrick to be present. He’s probably interested in the trial for its own sake. However, his primary reason has to be to protect Jill. If she does testify, I wouldn’t be surprised if her testimony causes a final break with her parents. I feel for her. She must know she’s hurting her family, but she also has to speak her truth. 

Austin is probably there for similar reasons - to protect Joy. Even though they aren’t estranged from her family, I can’t imagine he supports Josh. For all he’s deep into the Koolaid, his loyalties always seem to have been with Joy and their kids, not their parents. It also occurred to me that Joy and Jill are close enough that Jill was Joy’s maid of honor. 

Jim Bob may have been advised to stay away for the sake of his political career. It doesn’t look good to have a son on trial when you’re making a bid for state senator. 

The cracks in the family have been there for some time. This trial will probably break them wide open. 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, nokidsmom said:

I agree that Ben is the most "JB dependent"of the Duggar sons-in-laws and doesn't appear to have done anything to change that.  While I can see him lacking the nerve to rock the boat, at the same time, it's possible that Jessa preferred he not be there, perhaps also to not rock the boat.    I see both of them as too reliant IMHO.  

So easy money and life VS doing the right thing. OK, so just shut up about being the best Christians ever. 

[PurpleCats]

I wonder if Joy & Austin are further from the Duggar cult than we realize. Hearing all the testimony is probably deepening preexisting cracks in their relationship with her parents.  

[SassyPants]

25 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

When I first heard about the raid I immediately thought money laundering. Both Josh and J-B. 

I still think there’s dodgy financing involved. AND now we all know that JB is 100% shady, as we witnessed him lie by obfuscating and withholding truths (omissions) while under oath. Apple doesn’t fall far from that control freak tree.

I wish true Christians would actually rise up and persecute these lying heathens. 

[BensAllergies]

56 minutes ago, Speedy said:

Do we know for sure that she doesn't/didn't remember? If I remember correctly she was 5 when it happened, which means she could possibly remember. I can hope that she can't have remembered because it would have been handled better when it became public knowledge, but I doubt that's the truth.

The incident from March 2003 was detailed in the police report based on an interview with the victim in December 2006. The victim remembered the book they were reading, and described a hole in their clothing and pants being pulled down. The assault was described as touching of skin on the private area (pointing to buttocks in the provided drawing) and that it “felt weird.”

I don’t know if the victim was coached to say it was just touching or if she didn’t have the words/knowledge to understand what kind of touch it was, or even if Josh lied to Bobye Holt about the extent of the assault. But it does seem like Bobye’s testimony on Monday was the first time the victim realized how far it may have gone, and I really feel for her and that it was made public solely because her brother and assailant decided not to take a plea.

[Alisamer]

4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I still think there’s dodgy financing involved. AND now we all know that JB is 100% shady, as we witnessed him lie by obfuscating and withholding truths (omissions) while under oath. Apple doesn’t fall far from that control freak tree.

I wish true Christians would actually rise up and persecute these lying heathens. 

Yep. Clearly the judge thought JB was lying through his teeth. At what point does that become perjury? I suppose since it was "I don't recall" it wasn't solid enough to prove untrue?

If I was his political opponent the second Jim Bob said something negative about me I'd be putting his photo and the judge's quote about his testimony on billboards and commercials everywhere. He's a lying liar who lies even after swearing to tell the truth on the Bible he claims to live by, even when that's technically illegal.

[nokidsmom]

1 minute ago, SassyPants said:

So easy money and life VS doing the right thing. OK, so just shut up about being the best Christians ever. 

Yup, both of them seem just fine living in dependency on JB.  At first with Ben, I chalked it up to frankly being too young / naive, but it's been years and he hasn't changed and neither has Jessa.  In a way I am surprised with Jessa accepting that sort of arrangement.  She always struck me as sort of a spitfire and not the type to accept being under someone's thumb but who knows.

Speaking generally, it's so typical when there's "financial outpatient care" provided, it comes with strings attached.  And having to toe JB's line as opposed to doing the right thing, even if they want to, might be the string here.   Tough to be the bestest Christians ever in that situation.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

14 minutes ago, postscript said:

Jim Bob may have been advised to stay away for the sake of his political career. It doesn’t look good to have a son on trial when you’re making a bid for state senator. 

This is probably true but idk how it would make a difference.  It's not like this isn't all over the press anyway.  Maybe in a if you're not there you can say anything to make it worse kinda way?  When I first saw about him running for office I totally thought it was a joke from some snarker.  I cannot imagine what he was thinking, campaigns are expensive.  If he can win with this going on Arkansas is in some serious trouble.

[TuringMachine]

Interesting "my brother is on trial because images of unspeakable acts being done to children where found on his computer" look there Justin.