(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 38: Can't Believe I'm Typing This, but YAY Bobye Holt

[Dominionatrix]

I suspect Austin has been there to judge the facts of the case himself, as he is fringy enough to not trust mainstream media (where he would otherwise access info) and perhaps smart enough to not fully trust JB and Josh to give truthful accounts. He may also have gotten word of JB denying memory of what happened to Joy when he gave pretrial testimony, it probably pissed him the hell off and majorly damaged any trust in JB and Josh. Joy could be there for largely the same reasons (to judge for herself), although it’s possible that her choice to attend today means Jill is taking the stand.

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

1 hour ago, DalmatianCat said:

Also, Anna went from being the only in-law for several years to gaining several in a short time-frame. In general, they all seem more respectful of their spouses then Josh does of Anna (it was probably easy for her to overlook it when none of his siblings were married). Jill and Derrick took a few years to find their stride, but seem like a supportive team who are on the same page now, Ben definitely treats Jessa with a lot of deference/respect, Joy-Anna and Austin seem like good buddies/partners, and JD and Joe seem to adore their wives. Once there were more marriages to compare hers to, she probably had some moments of reflection.

I still believe Anna never elected to marry Josh or truly fully consented to the marriage. It was elected and consented for her. The Duggars were somewhat of Fundie Royalty and due to their $$ a catch for PaMa Keller.

[JermajestyDuggar]

30 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

So Matthew Waller originally told investigators he didn't know Josh's password, now says it rings a bell.  And he was the only employee of the car lot at that time.

WHO would insert themselves into this in order to create reasonable doubt for Josh?

 

Pecan’s youngest brother I guess. Of course it sounds familiar. He’s been asked that question before. So yes, he’s heard of that password when questioned. 

[libgirl2]

8 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

Interesting "my brother is on trial because images of unspeakable acts being done to children where found on his computer" look there Justin.

I'm telling you they support him in one way or another. Some believe it a lie and are gleeful idiots, some still love their brother but know what he did....  Justin is a moron but he is also what, 19 or 20? 

Edited December 2, 2021 by libgirl2

[OrchidBlossom]

8 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

Interesting "my brother is on trial because images of unspeakable acts being done to children where found on his computer" look there Justin.

You know, Justin never struck me as the sharpest tool in Jana's greenhouse, but I truly can't fathom why he would think "over-eager college frosh on his way to fraternity rush" was a good look for his brother's CSAM trial.

[Alisamer]

3 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

Yup, both of them seem just fine living in dependency on JB.  At first with Ben, I chalked it up to frankly being too young / naive, but it's been years and he hasn't changed and neither has Jessa.  In a way I am surprised with Jessa accepting that sort of arrangement.  She always struck me as sort of a spitfire and not the type to accept being under someone's thumb but who knows.

Speaking generally, it's so typical when there's "financial outpatient care" provided, it comes with strings attached.  And having to toe JB's line as opposed to doing the right thing, even if they want to, might be the string here.   Tough to be the bestest Christians ever in that situation.

Jill's gone her own way, Jinger is off in California, Jana's still not married, Josh is going to prison (please), JD seems not terribly interested...

I still think Jessa is trying to be the Duggar Crown Princess. I think she wants the "brand", the house, whatever she can get from it. She'll toe the line until she can take over, even if she has to do it slowly. In a decade all the Duggarlings will be adults, and wow, they really don't need that big house, do they? Mom and dad can move into one of the smaller houses. Jana (or any of the other girls) still not married? Get her the house next door or make an in-law suite for her with Michelle and Jim Bob. That way she can also care for them as they get older. Josh might hopefully still be in prison. Jessa, though, she'll be the face of the family. On social media, keeping their name out there (in a more positive way, if she can), and her brood of little plants and preachers need the space in the TTH. Maybe if one of the younger sisters isn't married yet she can stay and help with the Seewald kids. 

Maybe at some point things will go too far for her, but if she sticks with the family through this mess I'm assuming she's angling to take the reins in the long run.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

I still believe Anna never elected to marry Josh or truly fully consented to the marriage. It was elected and consented for her. The Duggars were somewhat of Fundie Royalty and due to their $$ a catch for PaMa Keller.

It was arranged by her parents but every thing she'd done or said up until at least the first Josh gate about the molestations becoming public was enthusiastic consent and pride over being Mrs. Josh Duggar.

I you were talking lack of consent because she didn't have the requisite information to consent to marrying a sexual predator, okay.  I don't believe either she nor her parents knew the full extent of Josh's pathology (No way JB and Michelle were honest and transparent).  But she stayed after she found out so she's sure consenting ever since.

There is no need to infantilize Anna.  She married badly and found out afterwards her husband wasn't who she thought he was.  Happens to the best of us, that doesn't mean she didn't marry him of her own volition.

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I'm telling you they support him in one way or another. Some believe it a lie and are gleeful idiots, some still love their brother but know what he did....  Justin is a moron but he is also what, 19 or 20? 

It’s shows that he is in fact a child who is married. I’m glad there’s no pregnancy announcement yet. 

[formergothardite]

8 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

Interesting "my brother is on trial because images of unspeakable acts being done to children where found on his computer" look there Justin.

This is not a good look for the family at all.  He clearly doesn’t think Josh is guilty and thinks it is going in his favor. I feel sick at the idea of Josh walking out with this same look if he gets out of this. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I'm telling you they support him in one way or another. Some believe it a lie and are gleeful idiots, some still love their brother but know what he did....  Justin is a moron but he is also what, 19 or 20? 

That's far too old not to understand the message he's sending.  These kids have been in the media their entire lives, this isn't an age thing.  There is something wrong with him.

3 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

JD seems not terribly interested...

Isn't he a pilot for a living?  If his career is flying daddy's plane he's as financially beholden as Ben.

[Scrappinmac]

re: Derrick-

(Disclaimer- I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on tv. My son-in-law is a lawyer, and we've discussed the first two points in the past).

1- First off, even if he didn't pass the bar exam in July, he can still get a good job. He still has a law degree and there are many government jobs that are "JD Preferred", meaning the degree is preferred but the bar exam is not. CPAs and CFOs are just two positions that do well with a law degree.

2- He also knows that he needs to be on his best behavior, especially in the courtroom. He would absolutely kill any chance of a good lawyer/clerk/etc job in the field of law if he is not professional right now. He needs to be above reproach, so being civil to Josh and Anna is absolutely the right thing to do and should NOT be viewed as being on Josh's side. 

Of course he's sitting in the family section- where else would he be guaranteed a seat? I think it's great that he's in the family section while not supporting the family of the defendant. Austin arrived late yesterday so he sat in the back. Seat placement doesn't determine support in this case. 

[EyesOpen]

Welp, you know what? My daughter is 5 almost 6… I have three children in schools in the US state where there was just school shooting… ima gonna take a break from FJ and my other socials for a bit. I’ve just had a good cry about what’s described in those images and I need a break.

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

It was arranged by her parents but every thing she'd done or said up until at least the first Josh gate about the molestations becoming public was enthusiastic consent and pride over being Mrs. Josh Duggar.

I you were talking lack of consent because she didn't have the requisite information to consent to marrying a sexual predator, okay.  I don't believe either she nor her parents knew the full extent of Josh's pathology (No way JB and Michelle were honest and transparent).  But she stayed after she found out so she's sure consenting ever since.

There is no need to infantilize Anna.  She married badly and found out afterwards her husband wasn't who she thought he was.  Happens to the best of us, that doesn't mean she didn't marry him of her own volition.

I don’t mean to infantilize Anna. She’s a grown woman. But she was born and trained in a cult. All of her autonomy has been trained/beaten out of her since she was an infant. I don’t think she was ever taught she can make her own choice of who she wants to love. Or marry. And that the person she decides to be with does not need to be fundie. Or a man. And that she doesn’t need another person in her life to be a complete human being. So in the context of being an indoctrinated cult minion, she did not really have much of a choice. I’m sure she had no idea about Josh’s history of CSA either. But she was told and taught to want to marry him. She didn’t wake up one day and made the conscious choice to marry the douche.

[Mlissmartin]

1 hour ago, danvillebelle said:

I was molested at 3-4 and didn't clearly remember it until I had been hospitalized and entered therapy (age 42).  Tracing back the level of sexual dysfunction and trauma in my life led straight to it.  I have nothing but sympathy for Joy and I hope she gets some therapy.

ETA: I think early childhood memory is just something that some people have and some don't.  

I was between 3-5 years old and can remember bits and pieces including the thought "no not again" I hope I never remember it all tbh. I think it's too much and just not being able to comprehend at that age, you just don't have the vocabulary for what's happening to you.

[SassyPants]

11 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Jill's gone her own way, Jinger is off in California, Jana's still not married, Josh is going to prison (please), JD seems not terribly interested...

I still think Jessa is trying to be the Duggar Crown Princess. I think she wants the "brand", the house, whatever she can get from it. She'll toe the line until she can take over, even if she has to do it slowly. In a decade all the Duggarlings will be adults, and wow, they really don't need that big house, do they? Mom and dad can move into one of the smaller houses. Jana (or any of the other girls) still not married? Get her the house next door or make an in-law suite for her with Michelle and Jim Bob. That way she can also care for them as they get older. Josh might hopefully still be in prison. Jessa, though, she'll be the face of the family. On social media, keeping their name out there (in a more positive way, if she can), and her brood of little plants and preachers need the space in the TTH. Maybe if one of the younger sisters isn't married yet she can stay and help with the Seewald kids. 

Maybe at some point things will go too far for her, but if she sticks with the family through this mess I'm assuming she's angling to take the reins in the long run.

Are you implying that Jessa just might be cunning and manipulative? Surely not. 😂

 

[formergothardite]

3 minutes ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

All of her autonomy has been trained/beaten out of her since she was an infant. I don’t think she was ever taught she can make her own choice of who she wants to love

I’m not sure that is true. Her siblings, raised just like she was, left the cult. One even had a child outside of marriage and was still welcomed to be a part of the family. It isn’t a situation where she would have to be the first one in her family to break away or one where she would be shunned. 
 

I doubt she fully understood who Josh was when she married him, but now she absolutely has the ability to grasp that he is a scary monster. 

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I’m not sure that is true. Her siblings, raised just like she was, left the cult. One even had a child outside of marriage and was still welcomed to be a part of the family. It isn’t a situation where she would have to be the first one in her family to break away or one where she would be shunned. 
 

I doubt she fully understood who Josh was when she married him, but now she absolutely has the ability to grasp that he is a scary monster. 

TRUTH!

[Mama Mia]

40 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

So easy money and life VS doing the right thing. OK, so just shut up about being the best Christians ever. 

They also just might not want to be in court to hear it. Each of the victims is going to have different ways of coping, as well as different experiences-and memories.
 

Jessa may very well not remember, if she was sleeping, and she seems like a pretty unemotional, pragmatic person, who maybe didn’t actually feel traumatized - which can be it’s own strange and confusing mental place to be in. She might be most helpful to her sisters at this point by just staying quiet. 
 

 The siblings will also have different reactions, and even if they weren’t a bunch of weird cultists - mixed feelings, especially regarding their parents, is certainly normal.

I just hope the victims husbands are doing whatever it is that their wives find most supportive and helpful to them, individually. 

[nokidsmom]

14 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

It was arranged by her parents but every thing she'd done or said up until at least the first Josh gate about the molestations becoming public was enthusiastic consent and pride over being Mrs. Josh Duggar.

I you were talking lack of consent because she didn't have the requisite information to consent to marrying a sexual predator, okay.  I don't believe either she nor her parents knew the full extent of Josh's pathology (No way JB and Michelle were honest and transparent).  But she stayed after she found out so she's sure consenting ever since.

There is no need to infantilize Anna.  She married badly and found out afterwards her husband wasn't who she thought he was.  Happens to the best of us, that doesn't mean she didn't marry him of her own volition.

This.  I believe her parents were just thrilled to have Joshley take an interest in their daughter, they encouraged it.  Anna was raised to believe her role in life was to be a wife and mother and here's this guy whose considered fundie royalty who wants to marry her.  Of course she's not going to say no.   And I always believed JB/J'chelle did not give anything close to full disclosure to her parents or her before their marriage.  Anna found out the full truth after she married him.   And continues to stay even as she is hit with more damning disclosures and now she's sitting in a courtroom with her husband on trial.  I don't think in a million years she ever thought she would be in this position but at the same time, she had ample warning, say, like 6 years ago?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I’m not sure that is true. Her siblings, raised just like she was, left the cult. One even had a child outside of marriage and was still welcomed to be a part of the family. It isn’t a situation where she would have to be the first one in her family to break away or one where she would be shunned. 
 

I doubt she fully understood who Josh was when she married him, but now she absolutely has the ability to grasp that he is a scary monster. 

Her sister Priscilla wrote very openly on their website that her parents strongly encouraged her to accept a courtship with David Waller but she struggled with it.  I don't recall if she used the word attraction, but she did say she didn't have the feelings for him that she should have to marry someone.  I got the impression that yes, they were inexcusably pushy about wanting her to be with him, they weren't going to force her. 

As well all know they did marry and become the most successful marriage Pa Keller arranged for his kids.  Think about it, in what scary universe are those two the match made in heaven?  

[onekidanddone]

31 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

Interesting "my brother is on trial because images of unspeakable acts being done to children where found on his computer" look there Justin.

Every single man in that family are reprehensible. I hope each and every single one of them rots in hell

[sixcatatty]

34 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

Interesting "my brother is on trial because images of unspeakable acts being done to children where found on his computer" look there Justin.

Way to disrespect the court system, jackass. I don't care if you are 20 years old. Then again, your daddy isn't the greatest example of good behavior either.

[Knight of Ni]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Her sister Priscilla wrote very openly on their website that her parents strongly encouraged her to accept a courtship with David Waller but she struggled with it.  I don't recall if she used the word attraction, but she did say she didn't have the feelings for him that she should have to marry someone.  I got the impression that yes, they were inexcusably pushy about wanting her to be with him, they weren't going to force her. 

As well all know they did marry and become the most successful marriage Pa Keller arranged for his kids.  Think about it, in what scary universe are those two the match made in heaven?  

Didn't David say something similar? Too bad they are raised to believe that marriage is a necessity.  

[TuringMachine]

26 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

This is not a good look for the family at all.  He clearly doesn’t think Josh is guilty and thinks it is going in his favor. I feel sick at the idea of Josh walking out with this same look if he gets out of this. 

The thing is, even if we entertain the idea that Josh is innocent, someone still did something horrible. To children. Smiling like this is beyond inappropriate no matter who did it.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Knight of Ni said:

Didn't David say something similar? Too bad they are raised to believe that marriage is a necessity.  

Yes he did.  His parents were very "encouraging" that he find a suitable wife and he was open about struggling with rebellion because that wasn't what he wanted at the time.  Lots of praying about it yada yada and there they are.

It's been a while since I've read it, but IIRC he wasn't interesting in marriage at all at that time in his life and she wasn't interested in marriage with him specifically.  But God forbid two young adults follow their own paths.