(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 38: Can't Believe I'm Typing This, but YAY Bobye Holt

[socalrules]

24 minutes ago, duggerme said:

A question about Derrick's presence in the courtroom.  A few people have suggested that it is so he can relay information to Jill.  But if she is sequestered, and can't hear other witnesses, wouldn't he be barred from sharing information with her as well?

 

Jill isn’t sequestered. Only juries are sequestered. Jill can be barred from being present in the courtroom until it is her turn to testify but she can be out and about living her life. She would likely be on 12-24 hour notice that she would need to testify. No one can stop her from watching the news or talking about the proceedings with Derrick or anyone, she just can’t be in the courtroom. There is no order stopping her from doing anything other than being available at a certain time to testify. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by socalrules

[Giraffe]

This gets worse and worse. I can't turn away and yet it seems like each new piece of information is worse than the last. 

[Beermeet]

56 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I think the partition was really just to get around Covenant Eyes. No need to go too much further hiding things, it’s unlikely anyone else would go digging through random cache folders on the partition if they even noticed the partition existed. It was Joshley’s computer really, the desktop was a big photo of him and Anna and the kids. 

How "good" is CE?  What do they cover as far as "bad sites".  Is the dark web even something they could monitor?  Like, of course perv Josh learned his way around.  He's had a natural knack for computers and film early on.   I imagine CE capable of detection of Google level searches, maybe duck duck go.  

[Alisamer]

11 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

How "good" is CE?  What do they cover as far as "bad sites".  Is the dark web even something they could monitor?  Like, of course perv Josh learned his way around.  He's had a natural knack for computers and film early on.   I imagine CE capable of detection of Google level searches, maybe duck duck go.  

It can’t catch anything at all on Linux which is why he made the partition. I have no idea how good it is otherwise. I think it tracks everything no matter what (if it’s the same thing the Maxwells use), and it just sends a notice for any problem sites or searches. So even if it sent no alerts Anna could probably check up on him. 

but not on Linux. Or if he had a secret second phone, computer, laptop, etc. that she didn’t know about and that didn’t have Covenant Eyes installed. 
I am sure he’s been getting around the software for a while. Just this time he got caught. 

[Jinder Roles]

9 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Anyone want to proffer a diagnosis of exactly what disorder this is?  You accuse me of something like if I did it (as if) I would be so ashamed and humiliated I wouldn't be capable of eye contact.  If I didn't do it I'd be panicked and angry and desperately looking for confirmation that my family knew it wasn't true.  Smiling and joking around ...I wouldn't be able even if it would save my life.

Sociopaths are supposed to be pretty good at mimicking the human emotion appropriate for the situation when stakes are high.  He's never been able to do that, it's like he enjoys the attention even thought it can cost him years of his life and keep him from raising his children.  

Seriously, any true crime buffs out there who know of similar cases where the defendant acted like this?

It could be. Or it could be a coping mechanism, he might be dissociating. Narcissism is another option.

It's virtually impossible to come to a conclusion about his mental health without him being assessed by a professional. 

I feel sometimes we can be too quick to pathologize someone and assign them a mental disorder. Some people simply horrendous individuals. 

 

Edited to say: Who is Caleb Williams? Was he working at the car lot and what exactly has he been charged with?

[sndral]

11 minutes ago, socalrules said:

Jill isn’t sequestered. Only juries are sequestered. Jill can be barred from being present in the courtroom until it is her turn to testify but she can be out and about living her life. She would likely be on 12-24 hour notice that she would need to testify. No one can stop her from watching the news or talking about the proceedings with Derrick or anyone, she just can’t be in the courtroom. There is no order stopping her from doing anything other than being available at a certain time to testify. 

When I think of sequestered I think of juries as well, but in this case on November 17, the Judge granted the defense’s motion & ordered that witnesses be ‘sequestered’ pursuant to federal rule 615. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817.93.0.pdf So apparently the Feds use the term ‘sequestered’ in relation to witnesses & in this case Jill as a witness is sequestered - which per the order in this case means she shouldn’t talk to other witnesses before she testifies.

Best practice IMO is to tell your witnesses to not talk about the case w/ anyone until after they’ve testified & even after they’ve testified don’t talk to other witnesses about the case, it makes it easier for them to answer certain cross examination questions & reduces the possibility of tainting their testimony.
Likewise In a case getting news coverage it’s best IMO to advise your witnesses to not read about the trial until after they’ve been on the stand & excused.

[Beermeet]

9 minutes ago, sndral said:

When I think of sequestered I think of juries as well, but in this case on November 17, the Judge granted the defense’s motion & ordered that witnesses be ‘sequestered’ pursuant to federal rule 615. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817.93.0.pdf So apparently the Feds use the term ‘sequestered’ in relation to witnesses & in this case Jill as a witness is sequestered - which per the order in this case means she shouldn’t talk to other witnesses before she testifies.

Best practice IMO is to tell your witnesses to not talk about the case w/ anyone until after they’ve testified & even after they’ve testified don’t talk to other witnesses about the case, it makes it easier for them to answer certain cross examination questions & reduces the possibility of tainting their testimony.
Likewise In a case getting news coverage it’s best IMO to advise your witnesses to not read about the trial until after they’ve been on the stand & excused.

Derrick is there to protect Jill.  I'm convinced.  With all the caveats.....Go Derrick.  He's been opposing the Duggars so much, he became a lawyer and I'm here for it.  Of course he's not acting a fool in court!  This isn't a christian hippie trip to SA.  He has Jill's back. I'm hopeful with Austi(y?)n too.  Just put a fork in me if those two are suddenly going to have Josh's/JB's side.  

I don't know why Jessa kept it together like an annoyance in their interview while Jill was falling apart but, that's significant imo. Joy was feeling some kind of way too. Like, beyond everyone else. And here we see their husband's front and center looking serious.   Other factors aside, I'm liking what I see here.  

Zero humping,  it's pretty decent for IFB freaks. We shall see. 

[feministxtian]

3 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Derrick is there to protect Jill.  I'm convinced.  With all the caveats.....Go Derrick.  He's been opposing the Duggars so much, he became a lawyer and I'm here for it.  Of course he's not acting a fool in court!  This isn't a christian hippie trip to SA.  He has Jill's back. I'm hopeful with Austi(y?)n too.  Just put a fork in me if those two are suddenly going to have Josh's/JB's side.  

I don't know why Jessa kept it together like an annoyance in their interview while Jill was falling apart but, that's significant imo. Joy was feeling some kind of way too. Like, beyond everyone else. And here we see their husband's front and center looking serious.   Other factors aside, I'm liking what I see here.  

Zero humping,  it's pretty decent for IFB freaks. We shall see. 

Derick has looked "lawyer serious" going into court. Austin looks like he could chew iron and spit nails. I mean, just looking at his eyes, he looks PISSED! I don't think in this or any alternate reality they would be on the "Duggar" side. They both look like they want 5 minutes and no witnesses with Smuggar. 

I can't tell you how much I want to see him perp-walked out of court. I want to see the look on his face. Will he lose that smug look? Will Anna finally realize what a pervert he is? Will we eventually find out that he harmed his own children? 

[luv2laugh]

2 hours ago, Jewels64 said:

KJ is a lying idiot her info is more than likely wrong.

She read it directly from the Sun, so how can that be a lie? Seriously. Do your research and you would’ve seen the Sun reported the same information.

Edited December 3, 2021 by luv2laugh

[Bethella]

29 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Edited to say: Who is Caleb Williams? Was he working at the car lot and what exactly has he been charged with?

Caleb Williams was (is?) a Duggar family friend. There were rumors that he was courting Jana.

Then he was accused of sexually abusing a minor between the ages of 13 and 17 on or between May 2015 through May 2018- his victim gave birth to his child. Caleb pled guilty to the first count of aggravated criminal sexual abuse. In January 2020 he was sentenced to 62 days in jail with work release plus 18 months probation. Earlier this year he was trying to get visitation with the child.   

The first thread on him starts here. 

 

[neuroticcat]

4 hours ago, snickerz said:

Was Anna in court when these disgusting things were being discussed & shown today or did she conveniently step out again?

Yes. She heard the descriptions and may have even seen some according to reality blogger here:

”

The Ashley can also confirm that some of the disturbing images were visible to Anna and Derick and others in the courtroom. Although the CSA images were only supposed to be shown to the jury, judge and attorneys (with the TV screens to the general public turned off during those times), the prosecutor left his computer screen on for a short time, showing several storyboards of the CSA images and videos in question. Anna, who was seated right behind where the prosecutor’s screen had a view of the images. (The prosecutor eventually turned off his computer, but not before some of the child p0rnography file storyboards were visible to those in the first rows.)

While Joy and Austin looked sad and disturbed by the descriptions, and several of the jurors looked away or wiped tears from their eyes, Anna remained stonefaced, even as the graphic descriptions were read and the CSA images were briefly visible to her. (The Ashley is choosing not to describe the files in question; however nearly all of them had disturbing file names indicating things like the age of the girls in the files, etc.,…”

Edited December 3, 2021 by neuroticcat

[Queen Of Hearts]

14 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Yes. She heard the descriptions and may have even seen some according to reality blogger here:

”

The Ashley can also confirm that some of the disturbing images were visible to Anna and Derick and others in the courtroom. Although the CSA images were only supposed to be shown to the jury, judge and attorneys (with the TV screens to the general public turned off during those times), the prosecutor left his computer screen on for a short time, showing several storyboards of the CSA images and videos in question. Anna, who was seated right behind where the prosecutor’s screen had a view of the images. (The prosecutor eventually turned off his computer, but not before some of the child p0rnography file storyboards were visible to those in the first rows.)

While Joy and Austin looked sad and disturbed by the descriptions, and several of the jurors looked away or wiped tears from their eyes, Anna remained stonefaced, even as the graphic descriptions were read and the CSA images were briefly visible to her. (The Ashley is choosing not to describe the files in question; however nearly all of them had disturbing file names indicating things like the age of the girls in the files, etc.,…”

How the F can any mother remain stone faced when hearing what was described? Even if she truly believes Smuggar is innocent?  Those victims were the same ages as her own kids.  She is either so medicated right now that she is incapable of any feeling, or she is just a monster.  

[Giraffe]

3 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

How the F can any mother remain stone faced when hearing what was described? Even if she truly believes Smuggar is innocent?  Those victims were the same ages as her own kids.  She is either so medicated right now that she is incapable of any feeling, or she is just a monster.  

That was my thought when I read @neuroticcat post, too. I'd be more surprised if she weren't on medication. 

[neuroticcat]

Frankly, after reading the descriptions, I wonder if Michelle and Jim Bob have bailed on Josh completely. Maybe none of the kids under their control are showing up at the trial, because they are just done. I have little sympathy for the parents  and their abusive choices, but I think any parent would be appalled to discover their adult child’s participation in evil like this, and, if they have an ounce of honest reflection and ability to own their own lack of proper action when he was twelve, perhaps they feel regretful. Yes, there is narcissism and hypocrisy and all abusive elements in their public posturing, but I think they sincerely want to believe (and think they are being?) they are “good” Christians that welcome children. This has got to be horrifying cognitive dissonance for them.

 

 

[feministxtian]

I'll take just a monster for 1000 Alex. 

But seriously, she has a newborn, she's probably engorged, hasn't had a solid night's sleep in a good little while, and is probably still utterly convinced that "the libs" framed her husband. Yes, cops and forensic specialists aren't always right, but in this case? 

I can't wait until the damn trial is over and he's adjudicated and hopefully punished. 

[neuroticcat]

1 minute ago, Giraffe said:

That was my thought when I read @neuroticcat post, too. I'd be more surprised if she weren't on medication. 

I think medication is possible plus abuse-response detachment. She has no doubt experienced emotional, spiritual, and sexual abuse if not more in her primary relationships and marriage. She also was raised to disconnect from negative emotion completely and put on whatever expected emotion. She then practiced that daily in her adult life as an ATI wife and in bizarro reality show land. I imagine there are so many coping skills at play here as well as the literal inability to express human emotion. If the blogger report is true, I find it expected behavior from someone so embedded in a cult as abuser/abused. She could not have survived/complied/stayed for so long without being able to be emotionally detached.

Maybe she is in shock too?

[indianabones]

Why exactly are some of you so convinced that Anna is medicated?

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, duggerme said:

A question about Derrick's presence in the courtroom.  A few people have suggested that it is so he can relay information to Jill.  But if she is sequestered, and can't hear other witnesses, wouldn't he be barred from sharing information with her as well?

 

He can’t relay information to her now (before she is called as a witness) but when she is dismissed, he can.  I expect they will go over the case together to some extent.  I think also he might (without talking about the case) be able to reassure her about the courtroom, if she is nervous.  (Just general stuff, like, “Don’t worry, there won’t be people in the court who will be mean,” or whatever.)

2 hours ago, socalrules said:

Jill isn’t sequestered. Only juries are sequestered. Jill can be barred from being present in the courtroom until it is her turn to testify but she can be out and about living her life. She would likely be on 12-24 hour notice that she would need to testify. No one can stop her from watching the news or talking about the proceedings with Derrick or anyone, she just can’t be in the courtroom. There is no order stopping her from doing anything other than being available at a certain time to testify. 

I thought she had been instructed not to discuss the case with anyone including other witnesses.

[Dandruff]

55 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

How the F can any mother remain stone faced when hearing what was described?

Maybe the lawyers told her to not react because her demeanor might affect the jury.  I imagine she doesn't want to do anything that could help send Josh away and/or damage her relationship ($$s) with JB, no matter how she feels about the evidence.

[ToriAmos]

I love that Austin looks ready to seriously throw down, but.... doesn't he kind of always look like that? 

He's a serious dude. No shenanigans. 

[marmalade]

1 hour ago, indianabones said:

Why exactly are some of you so convinced that Anna is medicated?

I thought IBLP was anti-meds. I think she's just lacking emotion. She's always struck me as a cold bitch. 

[Idlewild]

I hope the humpers who insisted Justin was wise beyond his years when he got married realise what an immature idiot he is. Hilary Spivey has fan girled the Duggars throughout- she seems to have a particular soft spot for Jason. Claire, at 20 years old, has a lifetime of this appalling family plus a stupid immature idiot in her bed. I hope her 15 minutes of fame was worth it. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

2 hours ago, Beermeet said:

Derrick is there to protect Jill.  I'm convinced.  With all the caveats.....Go Derrick.  He's been opposing the Duggars so much, he became a lawyer and I'm here for it.  Of course he's not acting a fool in court!  This isn't a christian hippie trip to SA.  He has Jill's back. I'm hopeful with Austi(y?)n too.  Just put a fork in me if those two are suddenly going to have Josh's/JB's side.  

I don't know why Jessa kept it together like an annoyance in their interview while Jill was falling apart but, that's significant imo. Joy was feeling some kind of way too. Like, beyond everyone else. And here we see their husband's front and center looking serious.   Other factors aside, I'm liking what I see here.  

Zero humping,  it's pretty decent for IFB freaks. We shall see. 

Jessa was stonefaced, angry and confrontational when presented with parts of her past she didn't want to deal with. I think Jessa' has right to react however she wants. 

Austin doesn't look pissed to me. He looks like Austin. 

31 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

I hope the humpers who insisted Justin was wise beyond his years when he got married realise what an immature idiot he is. Hilary Spivey has fan girled the Duggars throughout- she seems to have a particular soft spot for Jason. Claire, at 20 years old, has a lifetime of this appalling family plus a stupid immature idiot in her bed. I hope her 15 minutes of fame was worth it. 

Hillary reminds people of Jill R. She seems to have close relationship with Justin and his older brothers. It was probably her idea to go to trial to support Josh and the family.

Justin was on Jessa's buddy team, along with Jordyn. Jill's buddies were Joy, James, and Jennifer. It wouldn't surprise me if the buddies were rotated or moved occasionally.

Claire was a teenage girl raised in a cult. She married her first boyfriend at the urging of their community. It's really sad that she wasn't encouraged to do more with her life. Fame had nothing to do with it. Fundies get married when their parents tell to do so.

She seems to have married someone who is a little like her mother. Her mother had a goofy look on her face, too.

[zee_four]

6 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

I don't know but I doubt it.  I've only been a juror in  local case, not Federal.  All we got was a parking pass and $5 per day.  I agree that these jurors will likely need access to mental health care, but they might have to get it on their own.

No they don't. I remember it was a big deal after the Aurora theater shooting trial. I lost a couple good friends and had a bunch more that were injured, I was supposed to go that night and had a couple different groups of friends attend the midnight showing. It was awful and I didn't live through the shooting, the trial was worse in so many ways than actually rushing there that night, finding friends that hadn't been injured enough to be seen by doctors yet but were crying and bleeding, desperately searching for friends around town to find out they were dead.... And yeah the trial had some really horrifically graphic images. We also found out specific injuries that had happened to our lost loved ones that we hadn't really found out about, I'm thinking specifically about my one really close friend who was the first name to be released and only one of two victims that were taken to the hospital the rest were left in the theater, I was with her mom most of the trial but her mom left for that part and I tried to stay.... Hearing about way more bullets she had been struck by than we knew, we knew she was shot in the leg then the head which was horrifying enough by finding out 6 bullets struck her lower extremities and how she was still breathing when the police officers carried her in the back seat of one of their cars.... it honestly fucked me up worse than after the shootings.  

Anyway there was a lot of local press about how badly traumatized the jury was and that there weren't state resources available for them. By the time the trial finally happened the community center that was funded by some of the donations had closed down and so there really wasn't anything. There were volunteer therapy dogs that were life savers for victims and survivors but weren't available to the jury. One of the jury members was actually also a Columbine HIgh School shooting survivor (Littleton is about 10-15 miles SW of Aurora depending on where exactly you're going from) His close friend who was also a very close friend of my older sister, was one of the first victims at Columbine. The jury pool was so massive for the theater shooting and so many people were connected, that he had to sit through the whole trial

That was also a pretty widely known mass shooting trial, one of the first big ones where there was a living murderer. So at least on that end I know there isn't counseling that is badly needed for jurors. Mind you that was a state trial so I could be wrong and the feds might have services, if someone knows please correct me. But I don't believe they do and they most definitely SHOULD. Especially just hearing about the general jist of some of pathetic Smuggar's depravities. All young young young girls, many BIPOC, being tortured in the worst ways. It says a lot about how pathetic he is that he has to get off on torture of the youngest, smallest, weakest wee young girls. I don't want to say too much without a block because I know lots of people read here. But if anyone sits through or has any access to his hearings or trials and stands by him there is NO excuse in the world.' But I remember sitting through the autopsy photos of not just my friend but little Veronica, the 6 year old victim, and I still have nightmares and flashbacks about it, the way that such horror was presented in a clinical,, visual way.... like I said for me it was worse than the night of the shootings, racing there as friends who had been shot were still spilling out into the mall and the ambulances hadn't made it so cops were taking injured victims in their backseats. Obviously the worst night of my life but the trial was just as traumatizing and I support all jurors getting paid for mental health services related to what they've had to go through in court, as long as they need it.

Edited December 3, 2021 by zee_four
Typos

[3KidsAndStopped]

I am finding the trial really difficult to follow in the UK, not least because I am trying to avoid any graphic details of the actual materials, of which I have heard enough of in even the heavily redacted versions. The link posted up thread is blocked for Europe and the uk tabloid stream mentioned randomly reposts stuff from previous days so chronology is lost. 

Can anyone who is able to follow it clarify, so far in terms of witnesses and evidence-has it been testimony from federal agents, Bobye and descriptions/presentation of the downloads themselves?

Am I right in thinking that still to come will be any other named witnesses, including Jill and Jed, and Josh himself? I would have thought that Josh would take almost a full day to testify and for cross examination?

At the start, there seemed to be a suggestion the trial would take just 3 to 4 days (that seems really short for such a serious crime)-surely this will take longer? I know nothing about the American Justice system, realistically how long will the trial take in your opinion based on where it is at now and then how long for jury deliberation etc?

Thoughts are with the victims of Josh. This must be horrific for them. Jill is very brave if she takes the stand. No snark there either-I hope no one else does either.