(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 38: Can't Believe I'm Typing This, but YAY Bobye Holt

[Smee]

18 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I am finding the trial really difficult to follow in the UK, not least because I am trying to avoid any graphic details of the actual materials, of which I have heard enough of in even the heavily redacted versions. The link posted up thread is blocked for Europe and the uk tabloid stream mentioned randomly reposts stuff from previous days so chronology is lost. 

Can anyone who is able to follow it clarify, so far in terms of witnesses and evidence-has it been testimony from federal agents, Bobye and descriptions/presentation of the downloads themselves?

Am I right in thinking that still to come will be any other named witnesses, including Jill and Jed, and Josh himself? I would have thought that Josh would take almost a full day to testify and for cross examination?

At the start, there seemed to be a suggestion the trial would take just 3 to 4 days (that seems really short for such a serious crime)-surely this will take longer? I know nothing about the American Justice system, realistically how long will the trial take in your opinion based on where it is at now and then how long for jury deliberation etc?

Thoughts are with the victims of Josh. This must be horrific for them. Jill is very brave if she takes the stand. No snark there either-I hope no one else does either. 

Not in the US and also getting my info mostly from here, but I don’t believe Bobye has testified yet. She did the pre-trial hearing but not the trial. As I can gather, the testimony so far has been from law enforcement/homeland security, Matthew Waller (one of Duggar’s ex employees) and more federal investigators. In the course of that they’ve also shown jurors what Josh downloaded and talked about the partition and password.

Jill, Jed and Josh may or may not take the stand. They’re on the witness list but that doesn’t mean the lawyers have to call them. If Josh chooses to take the stand he’s an idiot. And the defence aren’t calling an alibi witness so I can’t imagine their side of “presenting evidence” will take very long, most of their job is in cross examining the prosecution witnesses to try to poke holes in things.

 

I just wanna say, shout out to FJ. I want to keep track of what is going on, but I don’t think I can handle the descriptions of what was downloaded, file names etc, so I have been really wary of news sites, Twitter and reddit. Thank you so much for being a safe place with spoilers ❤️

[3KidsAndStopped]

Thank you so much- I am glad I am not the only one who is wary of the places you mentioned-It is very difficult to navigate reports on this-I am grateful for the synopsis. I think Josh will take the stand. By choice. I hope he does as he will probably convict himself.

Can I ask another question about ethics in such cases? Obviously, we know Jill is named as a potential witness-but will she have been able to decline given she is a victim(or in other words, could all victims have been approached and declined to testify) it seems to me that they should be able to do out of compassion.

I hope I never have to do jury duty. We have a case in the UK at the moment that is so bad the jury have been excused from further duty for life. 

I find the legal processes and evidence gathering fascinating though.

[Ilovebrownies]

If Josh has had Covenant Eyes since 2013, he was bypassing it to get to Ashley Madison and porn back then too.  Probably by a partition also since that seems to be the only way.  

[Quiverless]

I read in a few places that Anna left the courtroom and then came back. Seems like she's trying hard to not show any emotion. I can barely imagine what's going through her head. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I can't help seeing her as victim, too, not of Josh's, but of the whole community and lifestyle. 

[WiseGirl]

Non US residents can you access the People magazine links? I get that it's People but they tend to update consistently and don't get too graphic. 

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-trial-prosecution-gets-heated-questioning-relative-colleague/

[Smee]

I don’t know what I feel about Anna. It’s complex and swings back and forth a lot. She is in so many ways a victim and suffering, and her beliefs put her in a terrible position. For many years I was made to feel like it was my job to carry my ex-husband’s faith, and in the months prior to leaving he told me that if God exists he “hates the f***er” because of our marriage struggles & my asexuality. It’s been 6 months since I left and I still get woe-is-me emails about how miserable he is and I betrayed him etc and “God abandoned” him because we didn’t reconcile. That kind of manipulation is hard to take even in my position with a strong support network and a church who in no uncertain terms told me his faith (or lack thereof) is not my responsibility. For someone like Anna, whose culture not only hammers home that it’s up to women to stop men sinning, but also that the result of straying from God is an eternity of suffering in hell, she has to let go of that weight of responsibility for his salvation. Then there’s all the practical stuff and the fear of the unknown and the emotional side of “but those times he really loved me” and the tiny seed of doubt of “what if everyone is wrong and he didn’t do it and I walked away when he needed me most?”

But on the other hand. The Ms NEED better. Even if it’s not “her fault” she can’t be a good mother to them, the fact remains that she isn’t. And they are innocent children who are paying the highest price for her blind spots and mistakes and abuse.

[nelliebelle1197]

On 12/1/2021 at 8:38 PM, onekidanddone said:

Well damn Beansie on a raft. I realized I was incorrect about the crystal ball said an right when I wen to edit the thread was locked. 
Anyway what I said in the last post was wrong. (and I blame Beansie)

That Beansie is really getting around!

I figured he would be sitting in Ohio this week judging the Duggars from afar, not attacking our friends!

[nelliebelle1197]

21 hours ago, twoandthrough said:

The Redditor who sat behind Derick and Anna yesterday and reported in detail about how the day went has deleted his/her account (or had it removed). Wonder if the Duggar legal team is following and got them removed. 

It would not be the Duggar legal team. They cannot do that. It would have to be courts. A closed court is a closed court.  That is why I was shocked a federal judicial intern had the gall to live blog the initial hearing. She honestly does not deserve to be barred after that.

20 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

What?  I know they removed their first post and resposted after removing juror info, but are you saying the entire account is gone?  Heading to reddit...

Edited to add yeah, it's true.  What the hell happened?

Should have come here. It would take a court order for us to do that!

[Mama Mia]

I don’t remember if it was this thread — but Joy’s Insta story that starts with a statement of it being therapeutic for her to clean her shed, so that’s what she’s spending the day doing (although clearly it was pre-made, as she was in court yesterday) —- goes on to advertise a set of speakers, with a discount code. I am kind of loving her taking advantage of the greatly increased views due to the horror show to make some $ , kind of shocked. I laughed when I got to that part though. You go Joy, do what you want. 

[Peaches-n-Beans]

7 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

She read it directly from the Sun, so how can that be a lie? Seriously. Do your research and you would’ve seen the Sun reported the same information.

I mean the Sun is trash too. Just because she's repeating the trash someone else published doesn't make it reputable information. Do your research. 

[JanasTattooParlor]

20 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

It would not be the Duggar legal team. They cannot do that. It would have to be courts. A closed court is a closed court.  That is why I was shocked a federal judicial intern had the gall to live blog the initial hearing. She honestly does not deserve to be barred after that.

Should have come here. It would take a court order for us to do that!

The mods on Reddit confirmed that the Redditor deleted their account of their own volition after feeling overwhelmed and sick following the first day’s proceedings. I honestly don’t blame them, I can’t imagine actually being in that room, it’s got to take a toll. It’s one thing to snark on these people, it’s another to actually sit in the room with them and hear the crime detailed and see their reactions firsthand. They had a greatly detailed summary, so I’ll miss that, but one Arkansas news reporter made an account and is giving info at the end of the day and answering some questions. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by JanasTattooParlor
Grammar is hard before coffee.

[Travelfan]

Regarding Anna sitting stone faced and showing no emotion. To me this is a fear response and shows complete emotional detachment. I know I’ve mentioned being an atheist here before and that I lived almost all of my life life as a “Christian” and a pastors wife. When I was a small child growing up in church I already had doubts about Christianity. I grew up in a only true believers go to heaven and any doubters, even if they are wonderful good people go to hell, type of church. From the age of 7/8 on I believed 100% that I would be going to hell.  I remember working very hard even as a small child in making my face an absolute stone whenever these things were talked about in church. Sermons that focused heavily on hell and damnation scared the absolute crap out of me but I emotionally disconnected myself so that I registered no outward appearance of my inward trauma. This is NOT a healthy way to deal with things, but I suspect that is what Anna is doing.  

[CanadianMamam]

10 hours ago, SassyPants said:

OMGosh. The book about his and Karla’s crimes is the one I was reading in a hotel Spain in the early/mid 90s. I took that book to the lobby and threw it in the trash, and have very rarely read true, violent crime books since. This was the first book that I couldn’t even have in the room, it was that awful. Horrible man.

I was a pre-teen in Southern Ontario when the crimes happened and it was impossible not to be impacted by the crimes. They were monsters.

[nelliebelle1197]

18 hours ago, Daisy said:

I just can’t get over how jovial Josh is. Joking with the court clerk, shaking Derricks hand, in general appearing to be in high spirits. Dude, you are on trial for possessing CSA! This is serious. I think he really thinks he’s going to get off. 

The upward failing expectations of mediocre white men never surprises me. See Brett Kavanaugh, who in a world where he did not have political connections from birth would never have been ended up on the Supreme Court. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, Quiverless said:

I can barely imagine what's going through her head.

Cartoon music at ever increasing volume to drown out the common sense her God allegedly gave her.  

1 hour ago, Peaches-n-Beans said:

I mean the Sun is trash too. Just because she's repeating the trash someone else published doesn't make it reputable information. Do your research. 

Emily D Baker from YouTube is pretty spot on with a lot of things and even she is saying that the Sun is getting the facts right and referring people there.

They are trash, yes, and the opinion stuff about who is sitting next to who and what that means in nonsense but they do have a reporter in the room and the actual facts about testimony are correct.  

[treehugger]

26 minutes ago, CanadianMamam said:

I was a pre-teen in Southern Ontario when the crimes happened and it was impossible not to be impacted by the crimes. They were monsters.

Karla Homolka actually currently lives in my city.  She uses a different name now and has bizarrely remarried and has, I believe, 3 children.  It’s all rather unsettling.  

[fish_ca]

2 hours ago, WiseGirl said:

Non US residents can you access the People magazine links? I get that it's People but they tend to update consistently and don't get too graphic. 

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-trial-prosecution-gets-heated-questioning-relative-colleague/

Thank you. I can (Europe).

What time does the trial start today? 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

It would not be the Duggar legal team. They cannot do that. It would have to be courts. A closed court is a closed court.  That is why I was shocked a federal judicial intern had the gall to live blog the initial hearing. She honestly does not deserve to be barred after that.

Should have come here. It would take a court order for us to do that!

Ha.  That was my first thought when I saw she deleted was to be glad that she didn't do that here.  Those conversations with people who want their posts deleted are never fun.

7 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Frankly, after reading the descriptions, I wonder if Michelle and Jim Bob have bailed on Josh completely. Maybe none of the kids under their control are showing up at the trial, because they are just done. I have little sympathy for the parents  and their abusive choices, but I think any parent would be appalled to discover their adult child’s participation in evil like this, and, if they have an ounce of honest reflection and ability to own their own lack of proper action when he was twelve, perhaps they feel regretful. Yes, there is narcissism and hypocrisy and all abusive elements in their public posturing, but I think they sincerely want to believe (and think they are being?) they are “good” Christians that welcome children. This has got to be horrifying cognitive dissonance for them.

 

 

You have a lot of faith in these people giving a shit about what Josh has done when they've never given any indication they care about anything outside of how this affects their brand.  

 

[SongRed7]

14 hours ago, Buzzard said:

Both parties can subpoena and compel the testimony of a witness.  Jill gave the Megyn Kelly interview along with Jessa when all this blew up, and could be impeached with those statements if she were to claim that she had no memory.  Its also possible that there are recordings that still exist that were never aired or made public, those could be played if they exist and become relevant.  

But this is all irrelevant....the trial is NOT about whether Josh did or didn't commit abuse on his sisters. The judge already ruled by a "preponderance of evidence" that it did happen (through testimony, court records, news accounts, etc).  Any of the girls could buy a billboard by a highway proclaiming it didn't happen/wasn't "bad'/ they don't remember, etc...and it wouldn't change one thing in this case as to whether Josh downloaded and possessed CSAM.  That is the issue. That is what he is being tried for.

So the only scenario where I can see Jill testifying for the defense would be if she was an alibi witness for him (they already determined pretrial josh didn't have an alibi defense, so it's really moot)  ...meaning she was having lunch/dinner/coffee with in on those exact days in question and can vouch he wasn't there at the car lot.  This never happened.  I can't imagine any other scenario logically where Jill would testify for the defense in this case.  Forget about feelings about all the different personalities. It just doesn't make sense logically. 

[3KidsAndStopped]

@WiseGirl yes I can too thank you-this seems a lot more censored down too thanks for this

[FrumperedCat]

10 minutes ago, fish_ca said:

Thank you. I can (Europe).

What time does the trial start today? 

Jury returns at 8:30am, so 45 minutes time, if I have my zones correct.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, SongRed7 said:

  I can't imagine any other scenario logically where Jill would testify for the defense in this case.  Forget about feelings about all the different personalities. It just doesn't make sense logically. 

Thank you!  I do not understand why anyone thinks it's a possibility she's being called by the defense, it defies logic.

[FluffySnowball]

3 hours ago, Quiverless said:

I read in a few places that Anna left the courtroom and then came back. Seems like she's trying hard to not show any emotion. I can barely imagine what's going through her head. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I can't help seeing her as victim, too, not of Josh's, but of the whole community and lifestyle. 

I do think she’s a victim in many ways and her parents especially have hurt and damaged her throughout her entire childhood and youth with them. But Anna isn’t only a victim, she’s also an abuser as of now.

She raises her children in the cult, deprives them of experiences children should be allowed to make, teaches strict gender rules and - that’s the worst IMO - refuses to protect them from their father, a proven child molester. Does she do all that because of her own victimizations? Sure. But she’s an adult with options and a functioning brain and she is responsible for what she does to her children herself and what she allows to happen to them from others. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by FluffySnowball

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 hours ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

Jill is very brave if she takes the stand. No snark there either-I hope no one else does either. 

It's not necessary to agree with every aspect of a person's belief system to acknowledge when they do something brave.  It takes a tremendous amount of courage to do what Jill is doing.  I don't see how anyone can snark on that, just like I don't understand why people were posting hateful messages on Bobye Holt's SM when she testified.  Yeah, her beliefs in other areas are likely horrible but shouting down someone standing up for victims doesn't help anyone.  It just makes it harder for people seeing that to do the right thing if they know something because they're afraid of the backlash.

Jill and Bobye are a couple of heroes right now, IMO, and it's not leghumping to admit that.

[pupper]

10 hours ago, Alisamer said:

They could be using the partition for anything really. There are plenty of legit reasons to have a partition (I had one set aside as my scratch disk for Photoshop at one point). He could even have given out the password and still had csa material on there. Bury it under a couple layers of innocuous sounding folders, make sure other employees either aren’t there alone or are busy when they are there, and chances are they’d never see it. 
I doubt many of them were spending hours in the tiny trailer nosing around on the pc. If they were bored they’d be online or using their own phones. 

Speaking of the tiny trailer, do you think the officers sprayed luminol all over it? 🤮