The Exvangelical Movement

[JermajestyDuggar]

21 hours ago, Inthemadhouse said:

Susanna Musser (The Blessing of Verity), is out of the closet and had a female partner.   This is not what I expected, to put it mildly.

I have no idea who this is, but I’m happy for them to be out now.

[Inthemadhouse]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I have no idea who this is, but I’m happy for them to be out now.

She was a former evangelical who rose to fame after adopting her daughter Katie from a horrific orphanage in Bulgaria.  I believe Katie weighed something unbelievable like 10lbs at 9 years old.    A second adopted child passed away in an accidental drowning at the house.  Huge family, skirts only, man leads the house, Jesus in everything they did.
She stepped out of evangelical christianity (and possibly all christianity) in the past year or so, but she has apparently stepped out of the closet as well.    
I've always had a soft spot for her, and the death of her child sent her into a horrific spiral.  I"m glad to see her not only back on her feet, but rising to something better and more authentic.  

 

[Giraffe]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I have no idea who this is, but I’m happy for them to be out now.

https://runtrimag.com/running-taught-me-to-love-life-run-tri-bike-magazine/

I hadn't heard of her either but was intrigued by what @Inthemadhouse just posted so I went searching. Interesting. I hope she continues to find peace and that her kids find some, too. 

[SassyPants]

I have followed SM and her family since before the tragic bathtub drowning death of her adopted son, Tommy. I was always stressed out after reading her posts. She always seemed  on the verge of collapse and yet they kept adding more chaos and hard work to their already burdened lives. Not surprised about her religious break away, but lesbianism did shock me. Running brought about that truth? After all those kids?

Prior to the drowning, several of the kids, both neurotypical and special needs, were shown playing and floating  in a rushing creek without life vests or supervision within reach. Tommy, who later drowned, was among those photographed. He was severely disabled and contorted. Those photos literally took my breath away. At that point I knew all was not well in that home.

[Howl]

18 hours ago, Inthemadhouse said:

Huge family, skirts only, man leads the house, Jesus in everything they did.

How many kids were there and how old would they be now?  Although some, it seems, would require lifetime care. 

[Inthemadhouse]

Around 10, ranging from adults to young.   Several have disabilities.  I don't wan to get into too much detail, as she does not seem to be posting publicy about the kids any longer, and I want to respect that.

[SassyPants]

A couple of the older kids were married, but it’s been so long since she’s actively blogged, I’m not sure if there are any grandkids.

[katilac]

14 kids, 12 bio/2 adopted,  5 with multiple disabilities(from the running article, which is quite recent). 

[AuntKrazy]

@Smee - I just read your comments about leaving evangelicalism and would say - I understand completely.  I drifted in my leaving from evangelical church (and into a UMC); and it has changed many long term friendships; but it's also given me new ones.  Perhaps the best one of all is the sense of peace with living life in my own skin, rather than constantly being told who I'm supposed to be (and failing).

I get the struggle.  And the experience of loving people who truly don't wish to intend to be judgmental who are oblivious to being the most judgmental towards "their own".  Because I left behind what I think of as "the crazy" - the anti-science, anti-vax, pro-Trump, patriarchal white establishment, I am somehow "not really a Christian" anymore.  

But I didn't leave my faith.  I just decided with a lot of study (I have a masters in theology - the academic theology track which studies both Hebrew and Greek), that I belonged in a place which viewed the Bible as authoritative regarding "everything needed for spiritual life" - rather than "everything needed for all of life".   The Bible is my guide to relate to God; not for medical advice, etc., and certainly not meant to limit my ability to be kind and gracious to myself and other people.

Until I read this thread, I didn't even realize that there is a "movement".  I've occassionally run across an "evanglical celebrity" who has left (or caught in scandal) - but most days I'm too busy living out my "regular person life".  And I wanted to add this:  While I'm sad at the diminished relationships (the chasm has been weirdly specific with regard to the issue of vaccinating - as I don't believe there is a "religious exemption" for Christians), I'm much more content in life by going a path that is about my spiritual life and journey in a "regular day to day life" way that gives space to knowledge which comes from more than the Bible.

[Alisamer]

30 minutes ago, AuntKrazy said:

(the chasm has been weirdly specific with regard to the issue of vaccinating - as I don't believe there is a "religious exemption" for Christians), 

Pulled this bit out because this is something that makes me irritated. Why in the world would a Christian think they are exempt from vaccinating? I'd suggest the opposite, that the Bible commands Christians to show love to others including protecting them via vaccination!

[Sarcastically spinster]

11 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Pulled this bit out because this is something that makes me irritated. Why in the world would a Christian think they are exempt from vaccinating? I'd suggest the opposite, that the Bible commands Christians to show love to others including protecting them via vaccination!

I know there are some Christians who have sincerely held religious beliefs against medical interventions where fetal cells lines were involved in their development because they see that as being complicit in abortion.  I can respect that if they're consistent across the board.  But many of them are starting from the point of "I don't want the vaccine because muh liberties" and then going to religion to justify it.  Very few are actually starting with religion and consistently applying it in a way that leads to denying the vaccine - that would require denying other forms of medical care, too.  

[feministxtian]

15 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Pulled this bit out because this is something that makes me irritated. Why in the world would a Christian think they are exempt from vaccinating? I'd suggest the opposite, that the Bible commands Christians to show love to others including protecting them via vaccination!

some bullshit about how some vaccines are developed from cells from an aborted embryo or falling for some other bullshit theory or saying that being vaccinated shows they don't have faith in Jesus to heal them. 

[Coconut Flan]

4 minutes ago, Sarcastically spinster said:

I know there are some Christians who have sincerely held religious beliefs against medical interventions where fetal cells lines were involved in their development because they see that as being complicit in abortion.  I can respect that if they're consistent across the board.  But many of them are starting from the point of "I don't want the vaccine because muh liberties" and then going to religion to justify it.  Very few are actually starting with religion and consistently applying it in a way that leads to denying the vaccine - that would require denying other forms of medical care, too.  

I had a friend try to pull that.  I asked her if she took ibuprofen.  Then I gave her the list of things she'd have to avoid to be consistent with her philosophy plus reminded her the pope had said the connection was too distant to be an issue.  I got blink, blink really?  She's vaccinated now.  She was listening to our dear east county what I consider perverted Catholicism.  I've convinced her to switch parishes to love and grace from condemnation.  

[Alisamer]

11 minutes ago, Sarcastically spinster said:

I know there are some Christians who have sincerely held religious beliefs against medical interventions where fetal cells lines were involved in their development because they see that as being complicit in abortion.  I can respect that if they're consistent across the board.  

I can kind of maybe see that, though it seems a really huge stretch to consider cells grown from cells grown from cells that once several decades ago was part of one embryo to be "complicit in abortion". And if they are consistent across the board, sure. But they're not. I'm sure the number of them avoiding acetaminophen, albuterol, aspirin, ibuprofen, Tylenol, Pepto Bismol, Tums, Lipitor, Senokot, Motrin, Maalox, Ex-Lax, Benadryl, Sudafed, Preparation H, Claritin, Prilosec, and Zoloft for this reason is microscopic if it exists at all.

It's virtue signaling at best, and IMO is incredibly stupid. Not getting vaccinated isn't going to keep that woman from 50 years ago (or whatever) from getting an abortion in the first place, nor is it going to do anything to stop or reduce the number of abortions today.

It's likely it will lead to an increase in miscarriages, stillbirths, and already born people dying. So good job, anti-vaxx Christians. Kill many people now including fetuses and babies in protest of the abortion of a clump of cells decades ago.

Not to mention the fact that if they consider "life" to begin at conception and consider that clump of cells alive, that it being used in science actually prevented it from dying, technically speaking. It's descendent cells are still alive. They wouldn't be otherwise.

I just have no patience for the sort of "sincerely held religious beliefs" that are so patently absurd, nonsensical, and ignorant.

[AuntKrazy]

There is are a few approaches - one that has yet to be mentioned here is a pseudo-intellectual "greek" argument that takes the use of the word "pharmakeia" which gives the root to the word "Pharmaceutical".  They then commits the exegetical fallacy of Illegitamte totality transfer by reading our modern interpretation of a completely different word into the use of the Greek root. (the way it's used in the Bible is that of magic/witchcraft).  In this viewpoint, medicine itself is bad because it is witchcraft/magic by being named "pharmaceutical"

This is akin to deciding that the meaning of "degenerate" and "gentleman" must mean similar things because they share a root etymologically.

[Sarcastically spinster]

1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

I'm sure the number of them avoiding acetaminophen, albuterol, aspirin, ibuprofen, Tylenol, Pepto Bismol, Tums, Lipitor, Senokot, Motrin, Maalox, Ex-Lax, Benadryl, Sudafed, Preparation H, Claritin, Prilosec, and Zoloft for this reason is microscopic if it exists at all.

Yep.  I think there are some who genuinely don't realize how ubiquitous the use of those fetal cells lines is in modern medicine.  Some of them would probably stop using those interventions if they knew.  Some would probably realize that they need to rethink their position.  Some would definitely find some excuse for why it's OK in some cases but not in others.  

I have a lot more patience for sincerely held beliefs if they're consistent across the board regardless of personal inconvenience.  That says that it's a genuine religious belief based on a moral standard, even if I disagree with the moral standard, and not just a religion that you twist to say whatever you want it to say.  I can respect that, even if I disagree.  I have no respect for a "religion" that's really just "whatever I want it to be to justify what I want to do".  There are a few cases where those genuine religious beliefs do lead to people rejecting the vaccine.  It's relatively few and far between, though.  

Fun fact.  Hydroxychloroquine was also tested with fetal cell lines.  

[Smee]

The “vaccine is the mark of the beast” and general conspiracy theory crap about the pandemic being planned so they could force vaccination and alter your DNA as part of a satanic agenda is the other angle that religion gets brought in to anti-vax sentiment. I do not have enough eye rolls. These people don’t seem to possess any critical thinking skills whatsoever.

[formergothardite]

15 hours ago, Sarcastically spinster said:

That says that it's a genuine religious belief based on a moral standard, even if I disagree with the moral standard, and not just a religion that you twist to say whatever you want it to say.  I

Except by refusing to take the vaccine they are then putting the lives of other people at risk. They could have COVID with no symptoms, spread it to a young child who then dies or a pregnant woman who then has a miscarriage. The only way for them to actually be consistent and show that being pro-life is truly a deeply held religious belief is for them to never leave their house. And I bet there is close to zero amount of people claiming a religious exemption who are willing to do that. 

[AuntKrazy]

@formergothardite

Purely anecdotal, but about 80% of the people I know who have had COVID caught it at an evangelical/fundie type church.  I've known several that have had it more than once and still won't get the vaccine.  Sadly, one of them has sustained lung damage, is still on portable oxygen, and is having cognitive function problems where he may not be able to work again. 

They are the typical family we talk about here - home-based business, homeschool the kids, don't work outside the home.  Carry that Scamaritan "insurance".  The 6 figure hospital bill is being picked up by the taxpayers thanks to the government (which they regularly berate).  The wife/mom regularly posts about taxes being theft, but was very quick to accept the 6 figure handout.  In any case, because they have a home-based business, I don't think there is any unemployment or disability type of contributions where they can apply for it.  I really don't get people choosing that kind of path a for their family.  They've put their 14 year old son to work at a fast food place to help pay bills.

This kind of stuff happening regularly in the midst of ignoring science and research is part of what pushed me out of evangelicalism.  Back to some of the previous posts points, it's defies sense that legitimate criticisms by those leaving are simply ignored.  I don't think Jesus wants families to be destroyed because of their faith.

[Knight of Ni]

Ok, this is Ray Comfort having a "discussion" with a former Christian? This this the best Ray Comfort can do? You say you're an atheist? Yes? Well what do you think of the 10 commandments? I also like the part where the godless engineer brought up the murder of the Canaanites when Ray talked about murder. 

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, AuntKrazy said:

They've put their 14 year old son to work at a fast food place to help pay bills.

Where, if he is still unvaccinated, he will be a greater risk for contracting COVID. Unbelievable.

I have given up on the adults who guzzle this kool-aid -- may they all get their just deserts --  but their minor children should be removed from these homes since the kids appear to be regularly endangered by their parents' and other adults' life choices. I'm not seeing how refusing to get vaccinated is any different than choosing to drive drunk with kids in the back seat.

[Marmion]

10 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Except by refusing to take the vaccine they are then putting the lives of other people at risk. They could have COVID with no symptoms, spread it to a young child who then dies or a pregnant woman who then has a miscarriage. The only way for them to actually be consistent and show that being pro-life is truly a deeply held religious belief is for them to never leave their house. And I bet there is close to zero amount of people claiming a religious exemption who are willing to do that. 

From their standpoint if this were to happen , then it would be in accordance with God's sovereign will , and that we must trust God to either protect people , or subject them to the plague , as He sees fit . The important thing , according to what they have told me , is to get right with the Lord , so that you're ready to go to heaven , in the event of unexpected death . I responded by telling them that I find their idea of God to be more aptly a devil . And then emailed them this epistle from Martin Luther . " Whether One May Flee From a Deadly Plague "  As I have learned from a recent history presentation in this YouTube video , even in the time of the Puritan minister , Cotton Mather , numerous of his congregation , during a smallpox outbreak felt as a number of such evangelicals do today .  

Spoiler

 

 

[feministxtian]

4 hours ago, Marmion said:

From their standpoint if this were to happen , then it would be in accordance with God's sovereign will , and that we must trust God to either protect people , or subject them to the plague , as He sees fit . The important thing , according to what they have told me , is to get right with the Lord , so that you're ready to go to heaven , in the event of unexpected death .

So why do they need guns at Starbucks? Their beliefs are incredibly inconsistent. None of it holds together logically. I don't even bother with them anymore

[Howl]

 

[MamaJunebug]

I just conducted some business with a man who is a member of the congregation where I have my membership. (No $ exchanged hands, I was getting info for a presentation I’m giving to my book club.). 
 

He signed his email with his and his wife’s name.  She hasn’t had any part in the brief conversation.

I think mostly he wanted to let me know his wife says “hi.” (I haven’t attended services in months, and I’m not sure I recognize either of their faces.) 

But the thought also occurred that he is avoiding the mere appearance of impropriety. 
 

Well and good.  I don’t mind.  But it reminded me of why I’ve cut back on all my activity at the very conservative church. Always under some kind of suspicion if you’re without a man, especially if your former man’s still living. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by MamaJunebug